========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 00:44:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: writing through chax wrote: >eryque, I think it would be an entrapment of the body to demand that it be >"written through" from any particularl or limited point of view or >perspective. yes, i'm not intending to actively limit anything, just wishing to explore what the limits have tended to be, if anything. >responding to Michael Coffey: > >> clearly, some writing involves the body more than other writing; henry >> miller vs henry james, for example. > >writing *about* the body is not what's meant, I think yes, fred, i think that's exactly it. er, not it. >mouth, and/or feeling language rhythms as body rhythms, >is one way to write to my body; not the only one, I see, here's where all this starts to get very, very tricky. is "writing through the body" ala cixous the same as "to write my body"? seems to me that there is a very subtle and very important difference that i can't quite figure (hence my original question) between writing through the body and writing the body. emily: > So, is >there anyone out there willing & able to articulate the distinctions between >these 2 or 3 phrases? And possibly give examples? My body would be >grateful, or else I would. i second the question. eryque ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 00:44:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: music, man (?) michael wrote, then fred wrote, and again from the top: >> I suppose the musicalilty of certain prose and poetry >> affects the body more than certain other examples do, but could that be >> considered writing through he body, or simply very rhythmic or sensual >> writing? > >what is "musicality" of writing? i second the question. >what conception of music >underlies this comparison? which music, in whose experience of >it? i'm not sure that there is any particular music(/s) at stake here, but i think we have to accept the fact that the music will be lost on some people, which is why i think some folks like the music in creely (it had a beat & i could dance to it) and some just don't see it. the blues is a form(/s) that comes naturally to me, but try playing john lee hooker at a bunch of kids from sri lanka that've never heard anything close before. (they wrinkled their noses considerable, were much less polite to a late howlin wolf recording). conversely, some of the traditional music they played at me was a bunch of incoherent noise. to me. eryque ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 16:29:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: XXXX. >For a while they were selling those yellow cans of XXXX over here, but I >havent seen it lately. I guess everyone here found out what everyone there >knows. > >I prefer Cooper's Real Ale. And that beer from Tasmania with the weird >animal on the label. > Cascade. Though Tasmania is not a happy place to be at the moment. In fact the whole country seems to be in state of shock. __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 02:24:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Rising Higgins Subject: Re: Jouissance, schmouissance, Stein Have you read Diana Souhami's, GERTRUDE & ALICE? (bio--Pandora, 91) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 02:36:26 -0500 Reply-To: landers@vivanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: landers Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply I'd like to focus this a bit more. Almost all poetry is musical, so that's not a good word, i think for the distinction that was wanted. As far as the musical resemblences go, Taggart uses sound like Phillip Glass while Creeley uses sound like Pierre Boulez. I'll keep all four of them, thank you. :) I have no idea what "writing through the body" means. I'm inclined to the talking head approach myself, projecting ideas in one respect, and sculpting sound and diction in another. Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 02:42:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Rising Higgins Subject: Re: creeley through th' Creeley's rythmic reading & exquisite line endings w/ unstressed syllable are music to this listener's ears!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 03:13:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: Re: writing through -Reply -Reply I haven't read Cixious but I'd like to take a brief gestural crack at the notion of "writing the body" from the philosophical context, the discipline which I have a hunch Cixious is most likely referring to. So just a guess, but I think Cixious is trying to consummate the critique set in motion by Nietzsche. Arguing against the will-less, body-less tradtion of metaphysics, Nietzsche calls for an embodied, explicitly will-full theory, one in which the seer is seen. While the "will" rhetoric has been dropped historically (partly due to Heidegger's assessment that will is too metaphysical), the "body" notion was picked up next, most significantly, by Merleau-Ponty (in part to flesh out Heidegger's rather disembodied notion of Being). So by mid-50's writing the body would have meant something like Niet.'s "dwelling resolutely in the fullness of being" which was in full existential crisis and committment (so it's "writing the crisis"--strange revisionism on my part). So since I haven't read any Cixious I have a glaring hole here, but, for a contemporary take on bodily writing, I'd suggest Peter Sloterdijk's example of the Greek anti-philosopher Diogenes. The crux of Sloterdijk's argument is that one can write the body without remaining subject-centered. That is, one can embody anti-subjectivity and take physical pleasure in dissidence. Diogenes writes with his cheeks (i.e. he's "cheeky"). So writing the body can or could be a way of writing through or against the subject. (I remember last time the issue came up Cixious was hinted at having the bias of feminist essentialism,perhaps true, but perhaps she's calling for a tradition of embodied feminism, or as French Fourierist Claire De Mar wrote in 1830's, a "rehabiliation of the flesh".) But that's just a blind shot since I haven't read Cixious nor am I a philosopher. bests, Joshua ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:28:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Creeley/music etc In-Reply-To: <199605010407.FAA22737@hermes.dur.ac.uk> Must come in with those who rate the musicality of Creeley: the compositional element, to me, is evident. Shaped sound. And yes, when he reads it (or when it's read), it becomes a physical thing. "Reading in silence is the source of half the misconceptions that have caused the public to distrust poetry" - Bunting. I first heard the name Martha Stewart on this list, and had no idea who she was (tho I got the general idea) - now, I learn she's being hyped in the UK, so pretty soon we'll all know the correct way to stuff an aubergine, sorry, eggplant. In this context I've enjoyed parts of the my-place-is-better-than-your-place thread: regional bickering certainly beats cultural uniformity. But did you notice how all the UK voices went quiet during the regional exchanges? I mean, we Northerners would never say anything critical about life in the South, or vice versa... Richard Caddel email: R.I.Caddel@durham.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:27:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: writing through Creeley's body Two points, first: Creeley's musicality is obvious but tempered both by speech (hence not reaching its 'upper limit music'-- this is not a bad thing) and by attention to visual design of words on the page (which may have musical effects in reading but is not the same as music at least in my head). The poetry-as-music metaphor has its limitations. Second, on "writing through the body" -- are people here reading that as always good? Its attractiveness makes me suspicious. Seems to me that this idea (which I guess some here are reading as deriving from Cixous and others) is complicated b/c of the confounding ideological status of the body in American poetics at least since Olson and in some ways before. Quote-mainstream-unquote poetics has sometimes found solace in a somatically articulated poetics for its own relentless individualism. Which leads me to ask what an embodied poetics might mean to do. For my own part, I'd like the theoretical base to be broadened a bit, to include not only Cixous but also Foucault and Elaine Scarry, for both of whom the body is socially produced and in no way a ground or origin. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: all this OPEN LETTER BUSINESS Thanks to Bob Holman, Al Nielsen and others for their responses to my letter--your points are well taken. I just had several matters I wanted to clarify: To Al: the issue, I guess, when one is talking about "community" is probably less what sort of poetry one writes as it is often LITERALLY a matter of where one hangs out--there are variances of poetic practice within every community, but people choose to be active in certain social areas rather than others. In that sense, my division between a "performance/slam" crowd and an "avant garde" group sometimes is less a matter of actual poetic differences than it is of social grouping. So I don't really see that there was some attempt in my letter to narrowly label what any particular poetry was doing, other than to talk about the environments where they tend to gather as poets. Bob, on one other point you made, at least three of the poets I mentioned in my open letter are either tangentially or not associated with the "avant garde" reading series at Ruthless Grip--in that sense, I definitely WAS mentioning poets who are not particularly a part of my own scene. I think the point you made about mentioning people from various groups was important--but I wanted you to understand that I had already done so in my previous letter. Thanks for your good work on the program, and for responding to my concerns. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:06:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: one last bit of OPEN LETTER I just left this last point out: Bob, I do see the point of sending letters to the Washington Post, and I have actually done so about six months ago on a really annoying article by Jonathan Yardley. I then also sent a letter to the Washington City Paper on an article they wrote about some novelist (I forget his name) who was attacking all poetry as "easy", except for the recent work of Frederick Turner. This is less to toot my own horn (a preposterous idea anyway) than to ask you this: do you think that a letter sent to the Post about a three paragraph letter that's a response to an article would actually get published in the Post? My own assumption in this case was that it wouldn't--hence my choice of sending you a letter this way. But if you think it would, I'll certainly adjust my choice of location next time. It just seemed to me that my concerns were too tangential to the original debate to find their way into the Post. I'd be interested to know what anybody thinks. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:16:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Washington Post/open letter In-Reply-To: Not to argue that poetry and its debates should be further marginalized or shunted away from the mainstream, but it would be really cool if the Washington CITY PAPER could tear itself away from following Marion Barry long enough to provide a showcase for the perf-po crowd, or the language crowd, or the inter-crowd debates... Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:58:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 1 May 1996 08:27:14 -0400 from On Wed, 1 May 1996 08:27:14 -0400 David Kellogg said: >this idea (which I guess some here are reading as deriving from Cixous and >others) is complicated b/c of the confounding ideological status of the >body in American poetics at least since Olson and in some ways before. >Quote-mainstream-unquote poetics has sometimes found solace in a >somatically articulated poetics for its own relentless individualism. >Which leads me to ask what an embodied poetics might mean to do. For my >own part, I'd like the theoretical base to be broadened a bit, to include >not only Cixous but also Foucault and Elaine Scarry, for both of whom the >body is socially produced and in no way a ground or origin. An embodied poetics would start by acknowledging that both poets & readers are responding to effects & powers originating in language & nowhere else; that these effects can be symbolized by analogy to the body or the reactions poetry creates, but that if we are talking poetics perhaps we should focus on specifically poetic effects. It seems to me that evaluating mainstream or other poetries in terms of what camp of critical sociology they are perceived to fall into is putting the cart before the horse. This may sound like blindered vision or neanderthal politics, but I for one am sceptical of the critical presumption that always subsumes poetry to some master discourse. This holds true even if your definition of language includes silence, deed, nonverbal communication, gesture. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:53:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: a sudden fit of stupidity In-Reply-To: Dumb question #517. Being at George Mason, me, personally, I should know this. But I don't. What is the name of the conference here next week at which Charles Bernstein and a host of other cool people are speaking, and can admission still be bought for any price, or do I have to listen thru the door with a water glass? McVay, abashed ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: rread quickie notus: scott bentley & bill luoma will read at ed/katie/adam\s house @ 503 page st #2 8:00pm wed yes. (sf,ca) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:38:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body In-Reply-To: On Wed, 1 May 1996, henry gould wrote: > An embodied poetics would start by acknowledging that both poets & readers > are responding to effects & powers originating in language & nowhere else; > that these effects can be symbolized by analogy to the body or the reactions > poetry creates, but that if we are talking poetics perhaps we should > focus on specifically poetic effects. It seems to me that evaluating > mainstream or other poetries in terms of what camp of critical sociology > they are perceived to fall into is putting the cart before the horse. > This may sound like blindered vision or neanderthal politics, but I for > one am sceptical of the critical presumption that always subsumes poetry > to some master discourse. This holds true even if your definition of > language includes silence, deed, nonverbal communication, gesture. Wow. As good a definition of writing-through-the-body as I've seen on this list -- didn't somebody ask for one? Should we start here, or somewhere else? I didn't mean to open the poet-vs.-theorist debate again, being both myself. Nor am I interested in subsuming poetry to anything (which to me is as ridiculous as subsuming other things to poetry). Shouldn't have used the term "base," I suppose. But I question whether anybody is capable of fencing off "specifically poetic" from other effects. (Your own rather territorial phrasing, Henry, makes me think otherwise). After all, this discussion, if I remember, started off with somebody asking whether writing-through-the-body required writing in the first or second person. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 07:47:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Creeley::Boulez?? Comments: cc: landers@vivanet.com Peter Landers writes: >I'd like to focus this a bit more. Almost all poetry is musical, so >that's not a good word, i think for the distinction that was wanted. > >As far as the musical resemblences go, Taggart uses sound like Phillip >Glass while Creeley uses sound like Pierre Boulez. I'll keep all four of >them, thank you. :) I think I understand the distinctions you're drawing here, but it's hard for me to imagine hearing Creeley's rhythms in relation to Boulez. He (Creeley) is just too American (in terms of rhythm & vocabulary) to seem as European as Boulez. Perhaps Elliott Carter (though he seems a lot more interested in John Ashbery's work) would be more appropriate, or Milton Babbitt. I'm not complaining about Boulez' work as such, though there are other composers I'm far more interested in (more than Carter or Babbitt, too, for that matter). If I were to make this kind of comparison, I'd probably compare Creeley to one of the more idiosyncratic jazz players, say, Herbie Nichols or Sonny Clark, in the fifties, or Steve Lacy today (if you want to call that jazz). But that's if I were to make this kind of comparison. Bests Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:01:34 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: rread At 10:03 AM 5/1/96, Bill Luoma wrote: >quickie notus: > >scott bentley & bill luoma will read at ed/katie/adam\s house @ 503 page st >#2 8:00pm wed yes. > >(sf,ca) CORRECTION: It's 530 Page Street (#2), at least that's what Eddie wrote in my address book. --Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:08:15 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Oppen: magazine appearances This is Kevin Killian. I lost the original thread of this discussion . . . but there's a contribution by George Oppen in "The Four Zoas" #3 (the "Too Insane" issue) in 1976. This citation is probably far too late to assist Burt Kimmelman or whoever it was who was asking. And besides he was asking if I remember right about earlier magazine appearances? Ach! Forget I ever spoke! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:03:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: a sudden fit of stupidity In-Reply-To: On Wed, 1 May 1996, Gwyn McVay wrote: > Dumb question #517. > > Being at George Mason, me, personally, I should know this. But I don't. > What is the name of the conference here next week at which Charles > Bernstein and a host of other cool people are speaking, and can admission > still be bought for any price, or do I have to listen thru the door with > a water glass? > > McVay, abashed > Gwyn -- it's The International Association for Philosophy an Literature (IAPL)'s 20th anniversary conference called DRAMAS OF CULTURE, taking place from May 7 to 11 right where you are. The program is too thick to type up, feels like a mini-MLA, but you should be able to get one right there & I doubt that it's booked up or out. (for more information you could call Campus Information [703 993-2090] or the Conference Coordinator, John Foster at 703 993-2774 or email him: jfoster@gmu.edu. Note, however, one of the panels, meeting on Thursday 9-12 a.m. in the Movie Theatre (inneresting place!) on the Ground Floor, & moderated by yours truly: THE ECHO OF THE ORIGINAL: TRANSLATION AS ARENA FOR THE DRAMA OF CULTURE with Charles Bernstein, Ann Leatherwood, Suzanne Jill Levine, Howard Norman & Andrew Schelling. Also, for those in DC area, the previous evening, Wednesday at 8 pm, Bernstein & Joris will be reading at Rod Smith's bookshop. Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:26:02 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Creeley's Orpheus If you are interested in defining writing through the body in the manner that Charles Alexander suggests, one that is multi-valent, I would suggest _Just Whistle_ by C.D. Wright. If you find language to be an artifice, as Henry Gould suggests, or at least artificial enough to deem an acknowledgement necessary then I'd start out with Toril Moi, preferably Sexual Textual Politics as a primer for some of the universal definitions inherent in the word body's semiotic screen. Be Well. David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:12:47 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Shindig AWP benefit reading, with a suggested donation of any amount you feel comfortable with. Readers will include: Susan Stewart Kabi Hartman Valerie Hanson David Baratier Keith Gummery Rachael Blau DuPlessis Robert Watts Jason Marks William Van Wert and at least 9 other readers to be scheduled. The reading is at 8 pm on Thursday May 2nd in Philadelphia at Temple University, 1619 Walnut Street, fifth floor. If any one needs directions or more information mail me at dave.baratier@mosby.com Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:17:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Oppen: magazine appearances Kevin, No, no. Love to hear about it all. Gimme more (if you got any)!! Burt kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:14:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: all this OPEN LETTER BUSINESS Mr. Wallace raises a good point about social scene vs. aesthetic "bent"-- I think the former causes a lot of walls that are often attributed to the latter (more than the other way around, it seems). For instance, Jeff McDaniel. When I became aware of Jeff, it was through meeting him in a bookstore and a shared enthusiasm about people like BILL KNOT (hardly a slam poet, though he has tangential social connections with the NY SCHOOL--zavatsky, etc.) and even more MFA types like James Tate. Such affinities are evident in his book. And since I've never seen him perform, I can't say much about his SLAM side. But, I'm told he does that way (Bob Holman---I still haven't got to a friend's to watch USOP on TV. so I don't know if McDaniel is there "represented". It will be soon). Anyway, so I consider him a crossover, or a straddler in that sense. So, I don't know if people actually choose "scenes" or if scenes choose people......more later, chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:22:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Tasmania From Laura at GHawkins@halcyon.com. Mark, I can't believe what happened at Port Arthur, send deep condolensces-- I had tea at that little cafe a couple of years ago (w/ TT.O, Lauren Williams, Eric Beach as tour guides during the Salamanca fest.), walked around the prison, was mortified by the kitschy little sailboat in the museum-- "Port Arthur, place of misery." I remember Hobart and Tasmania on the whole as a safe place to travel , the last place on earth where hitchhiking is fun not terrible. So I'm sad about the shooting. They're calling this the first massacre to happen there. But it isn't at all, as any Koori or half-decent historian can tell us. This stuff happens here more often than not (I walk into Mac Donalds expecting to get shot, actually); I hope it doesn't become common to Tassie. Regards, Laura P.S. Got 24 Hours as well as Southerly. Both are great! Chris Mann's coming to Seattle May 21, will perform "I don't hate America, I regret it" at Speakeasy (I expect that's the piece he'll do). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:34:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Tasmania In-Reply-To: I'm not surprised at all about Tassie. I taught there, married a woman from there, fled from there. I found more hatred there than just about anywhere I've been - hatred even in the wake of the genocide of the aboriginals - hated against gays that was close to unbelievable - hatred against punks, against the new romantics, against anyone different - hatred against Americans. They liked poofter-bashing as relaxation, drinking themselves into oblivion, and the Queen. I have no fond memories from the colonizing colony; I know too many people who were knived. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 13:49:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Another Lit-web-page In-Reply-To: this may interest some on this list -- came via the PEN-list -- haven't checked it out myself -- Pierre The Literary Menagerie Links for various authors online http://sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu/~egcash/ ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 13:22:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 1 May 1996 10:38:33 -0400 from On Wed, 1 May 1996 10:38:33 -0400 David Kellogg said: > >I didn't mean to open the poet-vs.-theorist debate again, being both >myself. Nor am I interested in subsuming poetry to anything (which to me >is as ridiculous as subsuming other things to poetry). Shouldn't have >used the term "base," I suppose. But I question whether anybody is >capable of fencing off "specifically poetic" from other effects. (Your I opened the bait can, though. Effects are effects, but theory is something else. Theory is reasoned discourse. Poetry reaches for something further (not all poetry, but poetry in essence). Silence measures human discourse, not the other way around. Word is primordial, sometimes appears as poetry, sometimes as "poetry". Truth-manifestation not subject to argument (though the sceptic is allowed to scratch where it itches). This shows the real value of reasoned discourse. When words reach the inexpressible they are humbled into truth (i.e. our human words are incapable of "arguing" with it). Mayday, Mayday... the letter killeth. The revolutionary was a poet until the explanations came easy. The machinery was all in place. Body language - just can't say - HG people talkin but they just don't know .... and why I love you so ...let the good times roll mayday, mayday... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Michael Friedman in the lab but poetry in essence). That reminds me of Michael Friedman's poem about creating.. what? a new fragrance? Tomorrow at Poetry City (35 blocks or so from Radio City) Juliana Spahr & Cathy Bowman Juliana's great. She shows up on this list from time to time. A book of hers will be published by S&M soon as part of the National Poetry Series. Cathy's great. She has two books from Gibbs-Smith. From time to time she hosts the poetry spots on NPR's "The All Things Considered Show." She's the auteur-teacher behind what may be the best poetry video ever, "The Great American Roller Coaster Poem." It's at Teachers & Writers, 5 Union Sq W, NYC, at 6:30 on Thursday. It's free, and we'll have food and drink. --Jd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:17:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: sestina here goes -Reply thanks, henry, for you kind comment about the sestina; and you're right, that penultimate line is weak. i shld change it, and will. and yours i liked ("raise a glass to the dizzzy city"!), but like my first transmission, it was received in paragraphs, with no evident line endings. did yours come back to you in proper six line stanzas? perhaps it's just something my system does to text. to fix it, I made double returns after every line, and sent again, and it came through, to me, properly line-broken. this is just to you, i think, not system wide, though god knows i dont' know my way around this universe, but He ain't helpin'. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 16:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: blocking poems In-Reply-To: hello, in response to another thread David Kellogg made passing mention of the "visual design of words on a page". i would appreciate any directions to work done on this. i have a vague memory of a movie i saw in high school about WCW and his idea of page as canvas. thanks, kevin ps. the visual design of this page was not to illustrate a point but rather the result of a callow typist "for such a smooth dreaming boy, eighteen and buttocks like sleeping kittens" Dawn MacDonald ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:05:26 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Salmon Subject: should be on back of xxxx can Did anybody see this. A reuter piece from london in the NZ Herald or local raag. Abridged by me. Title "POETS TOO CRAZY TO GET SO BLUE' POets are crazier than authors or playwrights, but less likely to becamo depressed or alcoholics, a British psychiatrist reported yesterday. It could be because of the way their imaginations work, Dr Felix Post...said. Dr POst examined 100 famous MALE brit & US writers and poets by looking at their biographies. Many good bio's provide enough detail to do an accurate psych. analysis - "They've got to be really good biographies" Post sd. His previous study found writers more likely to have mental or emotional probs. than other people like scientists or POLITICIANS. BUT POETS did not follow the trend "the poets were less unstable and had fewer depressions than others" He said poets had more mood swings and manic depressions requiring hospitalisation. But they were less likely than writers... to die young or become promiscuous. Only 31% of the poets were alcoholics compared to 54% of playwrights. ...writing of any sort is linked to poor mental health... psychosis or depression evident in 80% of poets 80.5% novelists & 87.5% playwrights. HALF THE POETS FAILED TO EVER ACHEIVE "COMPLETE SEXUAL UNION", while 42% of playwrights known for promiscuity... Dr Post sd it could be down to personality differences or the way writers or poets work. "I speculate that it is the imagination of novelists and playwrights, who are far more concerned with intimate human fate - they've got to identify and empathise with they're characters", DR POSt said "They have greater stress in their writing." AS FOR THE POETS "they don't deal with human fate. They JUST DESCRIBE THEIR REligious feelings or their love." DR POst said his study did not include women writers as women tend to have different patterns of mental illness from men and his study period STARTING IN 1840, HAD TOO FEW WOMEN WRITERS. (would there have been more had it started earlier) END. i wonder there will soon be a POet box to tick on medical insurance forms. Just though you might be amused / or something. Dan. NZ. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 15:26:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: blocking poems At 04:01 PM 5/1/96 -0400, Kevin Hehir wrote: >hello, >in response to another thread David Kellogg made passing mention of the >"visual >design of words on a page". i would appreciate any directions to work >done on this. i have a vague memory of a movie i saw in high school >about WCW and his idea of page as canvas. Milton A.Cohen has a book out called _Poet and Painter: The Aesthetics of E.E. Cummings' Early Work_, that explores Cummings' lifelong fascination with intertwining the two (he did both quite well). ************* Steve Carll sjcarll@slip.net "--A sound of waters bending astride the sky Unceasing with some Word that will not die...!" --Hart Crane ************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 15:26:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Poets and Writers: A Definitive Scientific Study (fwd) Hmmm is right, Gab. If they only studied "famous" poets, how do they know it's not fame itself, or something associated psychologically with fame, that causes these problems? And what's that about poets not dealing with human fate? Steve At 04:44 PM 4/30/96 -1000, Gab wrote: >Hmmm. Chuckle? Poets not writers as well? Gab. > >> >> ^Poets less depressed than writers, study finds@ >> LONDON, April 30 (Reuter) - Poets are crazier than authors >> or playwrights, but less likely to become depressed or >> alcoholics, a British psychiatrist reported on Tuesday. >> It could be because of the way their imaginations work, Dr >> Felix Post, who wrote the study in the British Journal of >> Psychiatry, said. >> Post examined the cases of 100 famous British and American >> writers and poets by looking at their biographies. Many good >> biographies, he said, provided enough detail to do an accurate >> psychiatric analysis. >> ``They've got to be really good biographies,'' Post, a >> retired psychiatric consultant, said in an interview. >> He found in a previous study that writers, as a group, >> tended to have more mental and emotional problems than other >> people -- politicians or scientists, for example. >> But poets did not seem to follow the trend. ``The poets were >> less unstable and had fewer depressions than the others.'' >> Careful analysis confirmed this. The poets, including Edgar >> Allan Poe and Robert Graves, had more mood swings and manic >> depressions requiring hospitalisation. >> But they were less likely than the writers, who included >> Ernest Hemingway and Jack London, to die young or be >> promiscuous. Only 31 percent of the poets were alcoholics, >> compared to 54 percent of playwrights. >> It seems writing of any sort is linked to poor mental >> health. Psychosis or depression was evident in 80 percent of >> poets, 80.5 percent of novelists and 87.5 percent of >> playwrights. >> Half the poets failed to ever achieve ``complete sexual >> union,'' while 42 percent of playwrights were known for their >> sexual promiscuity. >> Post said it could be down to personality differences, or >> the way writers and poets work. >> ``I speculate that it is the imagination of novelists and >> playwrights, who are far more concerned with intimate human fate >> -- they've got to identify and empathise with their >> characters,'' Post said. ``They have greater stress in their >> writing.'' >> As for the poets: ``They don't deal with human fate. They >> just describe their religious feelings or their love.'' >> Post said his study did not include women writers as women >> tend to have different patterns of mental illness from men and >> his study period, starting in 1840, had too few women writers. >> ^REUTER@ >> Reut10:30 04-30-96 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ************* Steve Carll sjcarll@slip.net "--A sound of waters bending astride the sky Unceasing with some Word that will not die...!" --Hart Crane ************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:12:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Tasmania >I'm not surprised at all about Tassie. I taught there, married a woman >from there, fled from there. I found more hatred there than just about >anywhere I've been - hatred even in the wake of the genocide of the >aboriginals - hated against gays that was close to unbelievable - hatred >against punks, against the new romantics, against anyone different - >hatred against Americans. They liked poofter-bashing as relaxation, >drinking themselves into oblivion, and the Queen. I have no fond memories >from the colonizing colony; I know too many people who were knived. > >Alan Alan & others Of course Tasmania is a conservative state with a background similiar to many other colonised areas (I mean the rest of Australia has a similiar (hidden) history of open warfare against Aborignal people. But then I recall a long running debate on this list about the certain mid western US states which sound like they contain many of the same contradictions which abound in Tasmania. Tasmania does have the most repressive anti gay laws in Australia but they also have a strong and growing gay lobby group which have openning challenged the laws. They have perhaps the strongest conservation movement in the country and the Greens currently hold the balance of power in State Parliment. There is also a thriving arts community centred around Hobart which puts many larger Australian centres to shame. I wonder if the hatred you speak about is really more real than the hatred that exists just below the surface in major centres (such as Sydney and New York??).......Its a difficult question trying to come to terms with a culture which results in such a tradegy as the Port Arthur shooting - at the same time we have to question a media which allows such an event to overshadow all the other ongoing tradegies around the world which result in many more deaths than an isolated shooting........... Anyway as you can tell I am still feeling numb.. the local media has been full of the shooting for days. The gun control debate has resurfaced and the gun lobby is running scared (at the same time there has been a rush to buy semi automatic rifles in case there is a ban)................ __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:16:50 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body Comments: To: kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU David, yes. Speech is a mouth/ I hate speech. mmmmmmm..... Projective Verse, as with projective painting, as with projective jazz, bebop, was/is to be produced/received 'through the body.' And is by those means and to that extent writing intent on refusing the individualism you refer to, and Joshua Schuster's subject center. At least that's what I've always thought, but I do constantly encounter 'misreadings' which state the opposite. Henry's 'clarification' makes for a difference; for argument's sake there would be WRITING through the body, or READING through the body. (I have to say,though, the whole expression has worn out its welcome with me,'writing through the body' sounds like some awful morphing activity, like what happened to smurfs what got left on the electric fire.) As to Creeley 'n jazz; he has himself over the years spoken, in letters to Olson, in several interviews, at length and more to the point with characteristic particularity about the relation of behop esp. to his own writing. I recall discussions of the' body language' of the musicians, close readings of Parker, of Monk and 4 beats, of the records to which specific chapters of The Island were written to, and a long section of the recent Sagetreib interview.... Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 23:01:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Creeley::Boulez?? An interesting place to go w/ the Creeley & music discussion is the album HOME an ECM album recorded in the early 80's. Steve Swallow (an electric bassist then associated w/ gary Burton & now w/ Carla Bley) took a series of poems and set them to music. At at St. Amark's talk at that period, Creeley praised the collaboration & noted that Swallow respected his line breaks and stanzas -- rare when compsoers tackle poetry. There is also a long piece where Lacy set A Creeley text to music(on hat Hut).Creeley's early poems provide a fascinating take on a poet's responce to the burgeoning bop scene going round him (see his letters to Olson at the time), this was a period of intense listening for Creeley... as far as classical music connection, I often think of a link between Cage's pre-aleatoric piano pieces (late 30's -early '40's) and Creeley's poetry. Where they at Black Mountain at the same time??? Joel Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 21:30:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Tasmania >>I'm not surprised at all about Tassie. I taught there, married a woman >>from there, fled from there. I found more hatred there than just about >>anywhere I've been - hatred even in the wake of the genocide of the >>aboriginals - hated against gays that was close to unbelievable - hatred >>against punks, against the new romantics, against anyone different - >>hatred against Americans. They liked poofter-bashing as relaxation, >>drinking themselves into oblivion, and the Queen. I have no fond memories >>from the colonizing colony; I know too many people who were knived. >> >>Alan > > >Alan & others > >Of course Tasmania is a conservative state with a background similiar to >many other colonised areas (I mean the rest of Australia has a similiar >(hidden) history of open warfare against Aborignal people. But then I >recall a long running debate on this list about the certain mid western US >states which sound like they contain many of the same contradictions which >abound in Tasmania. Tasmania does have the most repressive anti gay laws in >Australia but they also have a strong and growing gay lobby group which >have openning challenged the laws. They have perhaps the strongest >conservation movement in the country and the Greens currently hold the >balance of power in State Parliment. There is also a thriving arts >community centred around Hobart which puts many larger Australian centres >to shame. > >I wonder if the hatred you speak about is really more real than the hatred >that exists just below the surface in major centres (such as Sydney and New >York??).......Its a difficult question trying to come to terms with a >culture which results in such a tradegy as the Port Arthur shooting - at >the same time we have to question a media which allows such an event to >overshadow all the other ongoing tradegies around the world which result in >many more deaths than an isolated shooting........... > >Anyway as you can tell I am still feeling numb.. the local media has been >full of the shooting for days. The gun control debate has resurfaced and >the gun lobby is running scared (at the same time there has been a rush to >buy semi automatic rifles in case there is a ban)................ > > >__________________________________ >Mark Roberts >Student Systems Project Officer >Information Systems >University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia >M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au >PH:(02)351 5066 >FAX:(02)351 5081 Alan, Any American going abroad who does not have a knife held to the throat at some point simply because they are American misses out on one of most eye-opening experiences travel offers-- in Tasmania one bloke shouted he was going to "kill an American (me) for Peace." I talked him out of it, bought him a beer-- he'd been sent to Vietnam, I found out in our conversation. An Australian in Vietnam. Of course they hate Americans. An "ocker" can hold a candle to our own brand of bigot, yes, however the American left and artists have a long way to go to even touch the coattails of their Australian counterparts-- TT.O., thalia, Chris Mann, ACR, Jas Duke, Lauren Williams, Eric Beach, Carmel Bird (to name a very very small few!) and, in the music scene Penelope Swales (Alanis Morissette, eat yr heart out). On Tasmania alone, that little heart-shaped detail at the bottom of our maps, the number of active youth per capita far supercedes that of the same in the USA. Living directly under the hole in the ozone has its pressures. So, Alan, maybe the wallaby rissoles didn't appeal, but I think America can learn a lot from the Tasmanian, and the Australian, greens, feminists, writers, artists, poets, and, in simple terms "LEFT." I shouldn't be surprised that weird people with guns open fire anyplace these days, yes, but the shock's always there. Regards, Laura ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 19:03:40 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Tasmania In-Reply-To: I was in Tasmania last month and visited Port Arthur, a stunningly beautiful place with an awful history. I met many kind, generous, and rigorous folks, along with one rather nasty cab driver (though not as nasty as the NYC scam artists I once fell for). On a literary note, I highly recommend contemporary Australian poetry. I was on a panel at the Salamanca Writers Festival with John Kinsella, Philip Mead, Hazel Smith, and Joanne Burns, all of whom are excellent writers (and performers). In Sydney: Pam Brown, Denis Gallagher, John Tranter, Kate Lilley. There are lots and lots of others. The main problem is that hardly any Australian poetry is published in the USA. This is a real shame, especially since the people I met were all very knowledgeable about American poetry, and Frank O'Hara is something of a cult figure there. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 01:34:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body In-Reply-To: <75099FE292B@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> from "Wystan Curnow" at May 2, 96 01:16:50 pm Wystan Curnow wrote: > > David, > yes. Speech is a mouth/ I hate speech. mmmmmmm..... > Projective Verse, as with projective painting, as with projective > jazz, bebop, was/is to be produced/received 'through the body.' And is > by those means and to that extent writing intent on refusing the > individualism you refer to, and Joshua Schuster's subject center. At > least that's what I've always thought, but I do constantly encounter > 'misreadings' which state the opposite. Henry's 'clarification' makes > for a difference; for argument's sake there would be WRITING through the > body, or READING through the body. (I have to say,though, the whole > expression has worn out its welcome with me,'writing through the body' > sounds like some awful morphing activity, like what happened to smurfs > what got left on the electric fire.) No wonder people hate speech, since speech has no taste, no sense, just lingers dusty and dead in the casualty of vocality. But is speech impossible to swallow? I've been chewing on this idea of writing the body (which now, as Wynstan notes, is sounding rather hollow) so I'll just throw up and out some additional comments. But first, to save my theoretical butt I'll conjure up some poetheory w/ Barthes: "One might call "poetic" (without value judgment) any discourse in which the word leads the idea." First it seems the body can be taken (abducted) as both singular and plural. And if plural, there is a whole panoply of bodies, social, political, perversive. Writing the body does quiver between the personal and impersonal. Again, I see writing the body as a possible way of embodying anti-subjectivity, an assertion of one's congealing physical presence without necessarily collaborating in self-service. So I find writing the body a way to undermine writing the biography (writing the morgue). Also re: projective verse and Olson, I just wanted to toss out a mere idea without any extended evidence: I think there are striking similarities between Olson's notion of proprioception and Heidegger's disclosing and dwelling Being. But I have no warrant for that arrest. (Also unrelated, I just remembered McCaffery has a great extended passage in _Panopticon_ on the ecstatic polysemic possibilities of writing the body/text, but haven't my copy w/ me.) bests, Joshua ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 23:31:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Tasmania > I was in Tasmania last month and visited Port Arthur, a >stunningly beautiful place with an awful history. I met many kind, >generous, and rigorous folks, along with one rather nasty cab driver >(though not as nasty as the NYC scam artists I once fell for). > > On a literary note, I highly recommend contemporary Australian >poetry. I was on a panel at the Salamanca Writers Festival with John >Kinsella, Philip Mead, Hazel Smith, and Joanne Burns, all of whom are >excellent writers (and performers). In Sydney: Pam Brown, Denis >Gallagher, John Tranter, Kate Lilley. There are lots and lots of >others. The main problem is that hardly any Australian poetry is >published in the USA. This is a real shame, especially since the people I >met >were all very knowledgeable about American poetry, and Frank O'Hara is >something of a cult figure there. > >Susan Schultz Susan, did you stay at the writer's cottage up above the wharfs? I read at the Salamanca Festival (fringe) in 91 so it's great to hear it mentioned. I agree that the whole of Australian writing is ignored by the States' distributors; Carmel Bird's name appeared on the back pages of Best Short Stories of 91 but it's impossible to find her work in print over here (few years back I did find "Woodpecker Point" but nothing since). Check out Mark Robert's work on the Aus. Writers on Line (AWOL) webpage and electronic bookshop. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/bookshop1.html . You'll find your mates there. This may be the only way. Best Regards, Laura Hope-Gill @Halcyon.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:55:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Tasmania >> I was in Tasmania last month and visited Port Arthur, a >>stunningly beautiful place with an awful history. I met many kind, >>generous, and rigorous folks, along with one rather nasty cab driver >>(though not as nasty as the NYC scam artists I once fell for). >> >> On a literary note, I highly recommend contemporary Australian >>poetry. I was on a panel at the Salamanca Writers Festival with John >>Kinsella, Philip Mead, Hazel Smith, and Joanne Burns, all of whom are >>excellent writers (and performers). In Sydney: Pam Brown, Denis >>Gallagher, John Tranter, Kate Lilley. There are lots and lots of >>others. The main problem is that hardly any Australian poetry is >>published in the USA. This is a real shame, especially since the people I >>met >>were all very knowledgeable about American poetry, and Frank O'Hara is >>something of a cult figure there. >> >>Susan Schultz > > >Susan, did you stay at the writer's cottage up above the wharfs? > >I read at the Salamanca Festival (fringe) in 91 so it's great to hear it >mentioned. I agree that the whole of Australian writing is ignored by the >States' distributors; Carmel Bird's name appeared on the back pages of Best >Short Stories of 91 but it's impossible to find her work in print over here >(few years back I did find "Woodpecker Point" but nothing since). Check >out Mark Robert's work on the Aus. Writers on Line (AWOL) webpage and >electronic bookshop. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/bookshop1.html . >You'll find your mates there. > >This may be the only way. > >Best Regards, >Laura Hope-Gill @Halcyon.com Laura Thanks for the plug (AWOL). In fact if anyone is hunting down an Australian poet let AWOL know (awol@ozemail.com.au) even if they don't appear on the bookshop page we might be able to track them down. regards Mark (posting from work - but going home soon) AWOL awol@ozemal.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 00:23:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: blocking poems >At 04:01 PM 5/1/96 -0400, Kevin Hehir wrote: >>hello, >>in response to another thread David Kellogg made passing mention of the >>"visual >>design of words on a page". i would appreciate any directions to work >>done on this. i have a vague memory of a movie i saw in high school >>about WCW and his idea of page as canvas. > >Milton A.Cohen has a book out called _Poet and Painter: The Aesthetics of >E.E. Cummings' Early Work_, that explores Cummings' lifelong fascination >with intertwining the two (he did both quite well). > > >************* >Steve Carll >sjcarll@slip.net > >"--A sound of waters bending astride the sky >Unceasing with some Word that will not die...!" > --Hart Crane >************************************** Steve. Sounds to me like you're talking about visual poetry but I may be mistaken. If so, disregard this. Few weeks back we had a chat about concrete poetry which spanned the last week of March-- here's a lead from Bob Harrison which seems to suit yr request. >Hi Charles, yeah I'm still here. > >The poetry catalog for the Hermetic Gallery VP show is still available. Costs >8 dollars. Anybody wants one send me an email with your street address. Has >work by: > >Dick Higgins >Irving Weiss >Daniel Davidson >Peter Balestrieri >Steve McCaffery >Spencer Selby >Pete Spence >Crag Hill >Nico Vassilakis >John Cayley >Fernando Aguiar >Karl Young >Johanna Drucker >Leroy Gorman >John Byrum >John M. Bennett > & Susan Smith Nash >Clemente Padin >Steve Nelson - Raney >Bob Grumman >Hachivi Edgar Heap of Birds >Karl Kempton >Thomas Taylor >Avelino de Araujo > >Thanks. > >Bob Harrison >Robert.A.Harrison@JCI.com Here's one from Ward Tietz. > >USA > >Generator >John Byrum >3203 W. 14th St., Apt. 13 >Cleveland, OH 44109 > >Score >Crag Hill >1015 NW Clifford St. >Pullman, WA 99163 > >O.ars >Don Wellman >21 Rockland Rd >Weare, NH 03281 > >Lightworks >Charlton Burch >P.O. Box 1202 >Birmingham, MI 48012 > > >Canada > >Rampike >Karl Jirgens >95 Rivercrest Rd. >Toronto, Ontario >M6S 4H7 > >CURVD H&Z >jw curry >1357 Lansdowne Ave >Toronto, Ontario. >M6H 3Z9 > > >Austria > >Edition Neue Texte >Heimrad Baecker >In der Stockwiesen 13 >A-4040 Linz > >Press, publishes mostly concrete poetry (anthologies and some books). > > >Germany > >Christian Scholz >Gertraud Scholz Verlag >Rothenberg, Weinbergstr. 11 >D-8501 Obermichelbach > >Press, publishes books and CDs of sound poetry. > > >Australia > >Pete Spence >4/27 Alma Grove >St. Kilda 3182 >Victoria, Australia > >Curates visual poetry mail art show. Last year's show was in various public >libraries. > > >Hungary > >Laszlo L. Simon >Mezo u. 12 >H-2484 Agard > >e-mail: sxs@ludens.elte.hu > >Curated an international visual poetry exhibition in '95, is about to start an >electronic magazine. Their URL is http://ludens.elte.hu/~LIFT/ > > >France > >Doc(k)s >Philippe Castellin >20 rue Bonaparte >F-20 000 Ajaccio > > > >Ward Tietz If this is what you're looking for, these chaps put you in good stead. Bests, Laura laurahopegill@halcyon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 21:23:26 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Tasmania In-Reply-To: On Thu, 2 May 1996, Mark Roberts wrote: > >> I was in Tasmania last month and visited Port Arthur, a > >>stunningly beautiful place with an awful history. I met many kind, > >>generous, and rigorous folks, along with one rather nasty cab driver > >>(though not as nasty as the NYC scam artists I once fell for). > >> > >> On a literary note, I highly recommend contemporary Australian > >>poetry. I was on a panel at the Salamanca Writers Festival with John > >>Kinsella, Philip Mead, Hazel Smith, and Joanne Burns, all of whom are > >>excellent writers (and performers). In Sydney: Pam Brown, Denis > >>Gallagher, John Tranter, Kate Lilley. There are lots and lots of > >>others. The main problem is that hardly any Australian poetry is > >>published in the USA. This is a real shame, especially since the people I > >>met > >>were all very knowledgeable about American poetry, and Frank O'Hara is > >>something of a cult figure there. > >> > >>Susan Schultz > > > > > >Susan, did you stay at the writer's cottage up above the wharfs? > > > >I read at the Salamanca Festival (fringe) in 91 so it's great to hear it > >mentioned. I agree that the whole of Australian writing is ignored by the > >States' distributors; Carmel Bird's name appeared on the back pages of Best > >Short Stories of 91 but it's impossible to find her work in print over here > >(few years back I did find "Woodpecker Point" but nothing since). Check > >out Mark Robert's work on the Aus. Writers on Line (AWOL) webpage and > >electronic bookshop. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/bookshop1.html . > >You'll find your mates there. > > > >This may be the only way. > > > >Best Regards, > >Laura Hope-Gill @Halcyon.com > > Laura > > Thanks for the plug (AWOL). In fact if anyone is hunting down an Australian > poet let AWOL know (awol@ozemail.com.au) even if they don't appear on the > bookshop page we might be able to track them down. > > regards > > > Mark (posting from work - but going home soon) > AWOL awol@ozemal.com.au > http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol > > > > > __________________________________ > Mark Roberts > Student Systems Project Officer > Information Systems > University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia > M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au > PH:(02)351 5066 > FAX:(02)351 5081 > And when you DO contact Mark, ask for the John Tranter and Philip Mead anthology of modern Australian poetry (including the entire oeuvre of Ern Malley), published by Penguin. It's a great introduction. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: landers@vivanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: landers Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 30 Apr 1996 to 1 May 1996 > From: Herb Levy > Subject: Re: Creeley::Boulez?? > > Peter Landers writes: > > > > >As far as the musical resemblences go, Taggart uses sound like Phillip > >Glass while Creeley uses sound like Pierre Boulez. I'll keep all four of > >them, thank you. :) > > I think I understand the distinctions you're drawing here, but it's hard > for me to imagine hearing Creeley's rhythms in relation to Boulez. He > (Creeley) is just too American (in terms of rhythm & vocabulary) to seem as > European as Boulez. Perhaps Elliott Carter (though he seems a lot more > interested in John Ashbery's work) would be more appropriate, or Milton > Babbitt. > > I'm not complaining about Boulez' work as such, though there are other > composers I'm far more interested in (more than Carter or Babbitt, too, for > that matter). If I were to make this kind of comparison, I'd probably > compare Creeley to one of the more idiosyncratic jazz players, say, Herbie > Nichols or Sonny Clark, in the fifties, or Steve Lacy today (if you want to > call that jazz). > ok. so long as you see the point i was making, which is that creeley's music is of a different esthetic from taggart's, as boulez or carter is from glass. Both are very musical to my ear. i don't see the need to restrict parallel's by nationality. and also, to my ear, the long melodic lines of jazz are a lot different from what i hear coming off creeley's page, but i don't know the specific people you mentioned. carter's lines are longer than creeley's, too. olson's more like carter ... this is going nowhere ... ack! this is an artificial distinction anyway. each is deliciously unique. enjoy, Peter Landers landers@vivanet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:15:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: I Think of Can; US reception of Aus/NZ writing Yogi, What little Australian-New Zealand writing that has gotten through to my benighted suburb of poetry got through in the pages of the magazine Scripsi. John Tranter crossed over briefly in the late 80s early 90s, some sad amazing poems in the Paris Review I think. Michael Heyward, too. These two though it seems to me are the closest to the New York School of the Australian-NZ scene, n'escafe? A. Curnow's selected pops up from time to time. DISTRIBUTION! DISTRIBUTION! and its rhythmic mistress I THINK I CAN I THINK I CAN, Droopy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 12:18:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: SHMOUISSANCING STEIN emily: karin cope has a book forthcoming from minnesota (i believe) on stein and difference/queerness. it is so anti-identitarian that it doesn't address stein as a lesbian or a "husband," but simply as someone transgressive in every way, "queering" every angle. she's at ===is it u. of montreal? mcgill? not sure. somewhere around there. call u of mn press and find out when the book is due out?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Creeley::psych guitar madman?? Then there's New York guitar freakout band Mercury Rev's collaboration with Creeley--what's the name of that EP again, Jordan? Steve At 11:01 PM 5/1/96 EDT, Joel Lewis wrote: >An interesting place to go w/ the Creeley & music discussion is the album HOME >an ECM album recorded in the early 80's. Steve Swallow (an electric bassist then >associated w/ gary Burton & now w/ Carla Bley) took a series of poems and set >them to music. At at St. Amark's talk at that period, Creeley praised the >collaboration & noted that Swallow respected his line breaks and stanzas -- rare >when compsoers tackle poetry. There is also a long piece where Lacy set A >Creeley text to music(on hat Hut).Creeley's early poems provide a fascinating >take on a poet's responce to the burgeoning bop scene going round him (see his >letters to Olson at the time), this was a period of intense listening for >Creeley... as far as classical music connection, I often think of a link between >Cage's pre-aleatoric piano pieces (late 30's -early '40's) and Creeley's poetry. >Where they at Black Mountain at the same time??? ************* Steve Carll sjcarll@slip.net "--A sound of waters bending astride the sky Unceasing with some Word that will not die...!" --Hart Crane ************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:10:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: I Think of Can; US reception of Aus/NZ writing Scripsi yes. Also, an early NEW AMERICAN WRITING (I think #4--I don't know if one can back order it) had an interesting Australian section. I think edited by Tranter. Featuring Gig Ryan and others. Cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:10:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: blocking poems In-Reply-To: On Wed, 1 May 1996, k.a. hehir wrote: > hello, > in response to another thread David Kellogg made passing mention of the > "visual > design of words on a page". i would appreciate any directions to work > done on this. i have a vague memory of a movie i saw in high school > about WCW and his idea of page as canvas. Kevin, There's lots of work done on this kind of writing, including several books on Williams. A book that's part anthology and part critical study is Jacqueline Vaught Brogan, *Part of the Climate: American Cubist Poetry* (U of California P, 1991). Of course, that's limited to American poetry, as the title says. There's also Wendy Steiner's *The Colors of Rhetoric*; I forget the publication information, but I remember it as strong if overly jargon-ridden. The first other anthologies to look at are Rothenberg's, from *Technicians of the Sacred* to the present *Poems for the Millenium* (with Pierre Joris), which in my view provides the broadest anthology context ever put together for the intersection of poetry and other art, including painting. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:14:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body In-Reply-To: <75099FE292B@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> On Thu, 2 May 1996, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Projective Verse, as with projective painting, as with projective > jazz, bebop, was/is to be produced/received 'through the body.' And is > by those means and to that extent writing intent on refusing the > individualism you refer to, and Joshua Schuster's subject center. At > least that's what I've always thought, but I do constantly encounter > 'misreadings' which state the opposite. It's those misreadings which I was trying to raise, misreadings which make the language of writing thru the body available for such a wide range of writing practices that (tho I am attracted greatly to the idea and the rhetoric) I find it hard to understand it as meaningful. Maybe I read in Jed Rasula's book that William STAFFORD, of all people, thought of "Projective Verse" as obvious. If *that* can happen, then the idea of writing through the body needs to be seen in terms of its flexibility and its broad attractions, and questioned on that same ground. A personal note: several years ago (1991) I published a piece in Sagetrieb on Olson & the body. It retrospect it doesn't seem very strong for a bunch of reasons, some of which I've alluded to here. So I'm basically torn on the whole damned issue. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 07:28:04 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cynthia Franklin Subject: MELUS call for Papers * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * C A L L F O R P A P E R S First International and Eleventh National MELUS Conference Multi-Ethnic Literatures Across the Americas and the Pacific:=20 Exchanges, Contestations, and Alliances The University of Hawai'i at Manoa =A5 April 18-20, 1997=20 Hosted by the College of Languages, Linguistics, and Literature;=20 the Center for Pacific Island Studies; the East-West Center;=20 and the Department of Ethnic Studies The Society for the Study of the Multi-Ethnic Literature of the United=20 States (MELUS) will hold its first international conference at the=20 University of Hawai'i in 1997, in acknowledgement of both Hawaii's=20 central location between East and West and the increasingly complex=20 relationship between the Pacific and the Americas. We invite proposals=20 for papers, panels, etc. (less than 500 words). In addition to papers on=20 the multi-ethnic literatures of North America, we welcome comparative=20 perspectives that address the growing cultural or textual connections =20 between America and the Pacific, as well as comparative perspectives=20 on postcolonial and American ethnic literatures.=20 possible topics: new frontiers? american ethnic literatures * immigrant literatures * border identities *= =20 critical regionalism * new directions in feminism =A5 what about europe? * multiculturalism =20 emerging literatures & languages pacific island literatures * literatures of hawai'i * creole languages =20 cultures * protest & resistance literatures * why standard english? *=20 theorizing asian/pacific literature * cultural nationalism * the=20 languages of dance * non-u.s. ethnic literatures=20 narrating north america & the pacific oral literatures & popular traditions * film & theater * representations=20 of indigenous culture * colonialism, neo-colonialism, post-colonialism *=20 transnationalism & cultural production * representations of hong kong=20 1997 * tourism & homo ludens * sovereignty & first nation movements * the= =20 black atlantic and the asian pacific =20 reconfiguring american literary & cultural studies african american literature * asian american literature * chicano/a=20 literature * euro-american literature * native american literature * the=20 critique of nation & nationalism * cnn, www, & capitalist world culture *= =20 cultural transmigrations & transformations=20 The conference will advertise internationally. Special sessions scheduled= =20 for K-12 teachers. Reduced registration rates for high school teachers,=20 students, and international scholars. Presenters should be members of=20 MELUS.=20 For conference information, contact 1997 MELUS Conference Chair,=20 University of Hawai'i, Manoa Department of English, Honolulu HI 96822;=20 fax (808) 956-3083; e-mail: rhsu@hawaii.edu For MELUS membership information, contact Dr. Arlene Elder, English=20 Dept., University of Cincinnatti, Cincinnatti, OH 45221 (513)=20 556-5924. DEADLINE FOR PROPOSALS: October 15, 1996 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Cope's Stein/Rod? Gwyn? At 12:18 PM 5/2/96 -0400, Maria Damon wrote: >emily: >karin cope has a book forthcoming from minnesota (i believe) on stein and >difference/queerness. it is so anti-identitarian that it doesn't address >stein as a lesbian or a "husband," but simply as someone transgressive in >every way, "queering" every angle. Great! that's *exactly* the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thanks. Rod, think you might get Cope's book in at Bridge St.? If so, I'd love to reserve one...otherwise, anyone got the number for U of MN press? Gwyn, I accidentally deleted the mailing address for your chapbook..will you be at the Yak reading on Friday? or can I buy one from you in person some other soon time? I certainly still want one--& hadn't realized we were so geographically close when I asked for the address (sudden fits of stupidity abound)...e ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: Re: Cope's Stein/Rod? Gwyn? -Reply Comments: To: emilyl@EROLS.COM university of minnesota press: 800-388-3863 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:06:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: visual & poetic >>At 04:01 PM 5/1/96 -0400, Kevin Hehir wrote: >>>hello, >>>in response to another thread David Kellogg made passing mention of the >>>"visual >>>design of words on a page". i would appreciate any directions to work >>>done on this. i have a vague memory of a movie i saw in high school >>>about WCW and his idea of page as canvas. Since this conversation intersects with the one on visual poetry, I would suggest that people with web access look at the marvelous Light & Dust site. Its table of contents is at http://www.thing.net./~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm Included there are visual poems by Paul Dutton (this one also a sound, in printed form), Karl Kempton, Kajina Kyuyo, Philadelpho Menezes, Clemente Padin, Carl Lynden Peters, Yamanaka Ryojiro, and others. Also criticism present here, including Menezes's introduction & conclusion to Poetics and Visuality; and Karl Young's Introduction to Karl Kempton's visual poems which make up the book Rune: A Survey. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:22:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: POMO In-Reply-To: <199605020405.AAA08458@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> as one who loves nothing more than to stir up finally stilled waters, I remind all readers of the following lines from Kerouac's possibly postmodern novel _Desolation Angels_: it's Gia Vlaencia, the daughter of the mad Spanish anthropologist sage who'd lived with the Pomo and Pit River Indians of California, famous old man, whom I'd read and revered only three years ago while working the railroad outa San Louis Obispo-- (pg. 138) Possible first instance of direct influence of Pomo culture on postmodern culture? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:24:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: City Papers In-Reply-To: <199605020405.AAA08458@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Ages ago as I was leaving D.C., _City Paper_ was just beginning to give some modicum of attention to area poetry, largely through the efforts of Rick Peabody -- Would I gather from recent remarks here that said paper dropped said ball? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 14:49:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: City Papers In-Reply-To: Aldon, the _City Paper_ dutifully lists Lib of Cong readings, slams, and the gigs of the ubiquitous DJ Renegade in its calendars of events, but I haven't seen a feature or sidebar or blurb about poetry in the 2 years I've been in DC. Said ball done been dropped, I think. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:57:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: writing through Creeley's body In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at May 2, 96 01:14:10 pm speaking of music and body, there's this piece of music by creeley One and two and one, two, three what an extraordinary piece of minimalism and music -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 15:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: May Bridge Street Readings Two Readin's Real Soon: Wed. May 8th @ 8 PM Charles (a.k.a. "Charles") Bernstein & Pierre Joris Sun. May 12th @ 8 PM Buck Downs & Chris Mann Buck Downs is the very snappy transplanted Floridian editor of _Open 24 Hours_. Buck's Berriganesque yet Coolidgean w/ a camouflage hat that says BUCK on it & a voice to melt your heart. Chris Mann is an Australian composer of I don't know exactly what. He's worked w/ Cage & received grants & fellowships from oodles o' organizations. Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC phone 202 965 5200 (Across from the Biograph in Georgetown.) Readings are free, sort of. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 15:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Ear on Saturday Sat. May 4th @ 2:30 (yes, PM) Robert Mittenthal & Rod Smith Ear Inn, 326 Spring Street, NYC ph 226 9060 Not free, sort of. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:10:52 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Reading at Alba There will be a poetry reading at Alba Restaurant, 2,Lorne st, Auckland, Tuesday May 7, 1996, 8p.m. Readers:Wystan Curnow,Murray Edmond,Tony Green, Roger Horrocks,Michele Leggott,Alan Loney,Di Nash, Mark Wills, Elizabeth Wilson. All welcome. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:18:24 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: should be on back of xxxx can Re the NZ Herald Reuter report re-poet's. Dr Post's got a point. IF I were writing to describe my feelings of love or religion I'd get depressed too (resad More Depressed). I guess it's interesting that he's got hold of a model of poetics there that probably persists in the large scale public media, popular press, to work with. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:27:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: blocking poems -Reply Comments: To: angelo@MUSTANG.UWO.CA kevin o'hir wrote: visual design of words on a page". i would appreciate any directions to work done on this. i have a vague memory of a movie i saw in high school about WCW and his idea of page as canvas. Kevin: not sure if this is of help, but Dick Higgins, former fluxus activist, publisher (something else press), poet and scholar is THE authority on pattern poems, or concrete poetry; he did a study of George Herbert's pattern poems (he of "The Altar") and did a larger work on the history of pattern poems, which i believe was published by Southern Illinois University Press in paperback about six years ago. michael coffey mcoffey@pw.cahners.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:28:59 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Tasmania Interesting to see Eric Beach surface in a list of Austrlian poets. He got anthologized some years back as a young NZ poet. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:48:11 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: word leading the idea Joshua referred to Barthes' "One might call "poetic" (without value judgment) any discourse in which the word leads the idea." I like this idea, but wonder whether it's the word _leading_ the idea, or the words conducting a discourse/dance that is separate from the idea. Could we say that the 'poetic' is the dance of the signifiers, while the 'narrative' is the dance of the signifieds? Though of course my use of the word 'separate' is too reductive: there can (should?) be play or counterpoint (my metaphors now not so much mixed as pureed) between the word-dance & the idea-dance. & we read the 'poetic' as well as the 'narrative' (form never _less_ than an extension of content?), though possibly in very different modes (musical/ analytical). & I wonder where the word might lead the idea, if we follow it right down the garden path ... no ideas but in words? Yours &c, Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ashton Subject: Re: Cope's Stein/Rod? Gwyn? Comments: To: Emily Lloyd In-Reply-To: <199605021730.NAA23505@smtp1.erols.com> I tried to post an answer to your query about transgender criticism on Stein once before and for some reason my post never appeared. I hope this works. There are a couple of earlier accounts that you might consult, if nothing else just to see how much more thinking still needs to be done on this subject. A couple of not-so-recent essays by Catherine Stimpson are "Getrice/Altrude: Stein, Toklas, and the Paradox of the Happy Marriage" and another for which I am missing the title, but I know the phrase "Lesbian Lie" or "Lies" is in there somewhere. Also, you might look at "A Signature of Lesbian Autobiography" by Leigh Gilmore, also not-so-recent. Jennifer Ashton Johns Hopkins University ashto_j@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 02:30:47 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jondi Keane Subject: writing threw the body In following the thread, "through", I found Joshua Schuster's history of the take(s) on the body real good but more what we should read and not perhaps what we might do, because poetics means that the body is also on the take. Hence the addition by D. Kellog of Elaine Scarry and Foucault to which I would add Anne Hollander's "Seeing through clothes". the "through" here being that the depiction of bodies was/is in-formed by the current cut and paste idea of clothes, and implies media and transmission, and so too "through" the body. H.Gould added: <> I would suggest that the opposite is more productive: that language, discourses, formal systems and logics arose from the body finding/making (pro-finding, profound-ing) a relation to its own thinking. This is a question for Poetics: How do I work this thing. It is a question of engagement and AEffection. The runnings back and forth (of discourse(s), show an ORIENTATION, each discourse is an orientation of the body towards its "expressions" (in the medical sense). Writing through the body foregrounds the orientation that is aeffected and in-formed by the bodily. Thinking produces experience, different discourses produce likewise different aeffectations, the body produce experience that the brain thinks about. The body also thinks for itself. The INTERESTING THING is that there is a willful confusion of these, they approximate and overlap strongly and because they do, they create the possibilities of other, 2nd, 3rd, and even centered person(s). Giving voice (an interesting bodily problem considering all the work that actors and singers do just on disposition, the fact that over 200 muscles connect into the throat and controls the "lips of the voice" means that the way the muscles are connected hold or flex, lengthen, harden, walk sit, etc. effect the finding of the physical instrument of the voice.) and then giving voice to a fictive, imagined, projected, physical, internally isolated, prosthetic or socially constructed body, is the search and research of that which shows up only as the poetic effects. It is true this is all we see, but we read also through our sense of poetics, not just through our sense of text. POETICS IS NOT ABOUT POETRY, andit is this relation of body to its thoughts that needs a Poetics. Discourse follows by "Writing through the body"or not. Foregrounding (the body) does not have to be a prioritizing, it can, and in this case does, imply loss or negligence as a source (real or other-wise) w/o making it foremost. Our dispositions have grown acustomed and our taste adjusted to theoretical, literary & scientific voices (re: D.Byrd post on "taste for theory" some time ago) more than, for example, an all-flesh (pancreatic) one. But,this is life in the eyes ears nose mouth and the legacy of sensations produced by reflective values. Jondi Keane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:54:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott J Pound Subject: Re: writing threw the body In-Reply-To: <199605030040.CAA19094@badboy.iprolink.ch> I'm not sure I know what writing through the body is, yet, but i know Nicole Brossard does: Fictive theory: words were used only in the ultimate embrace. The first word lips and sticky saliva on her breasts. Theory begins there when the breast or the child moves away. Strategic wound or suspended meaning. (_These Our Mothers_) Ride astride grammar. I spread myself, eager, inconsequential and desire. * * * Words get confused So hotly used (_French Kiss_) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 22:24:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: writing threw the body >I'm not sure I know what writing through the body is, yet i have a feeling that if any of us knew, i mean really knew, this thread wouldn't take so many twists and turns. but then it wouldn't be half as fun either! eryque ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:04:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: writing threw the body In-Reply-To: <199605030040.CAA19094@badboy.iprolink.ch> From babble and play to poetry: some philosophical reflections on writing through the vocal cords: "From the standpoint of articulation, phonic freeplay strips the infant of the manifold benefits of political conversation. In being not yet human, the infant is nonhuman. For the play that (as yet) avoids the work of commanding the organs of speech is the action of a creature imprisoned by its vital functions. Infancy, for Hobbes, is retribution and imprisonment, a repetition of the fall at Babylon. In that condition, being and action, lacking rigor and retentiveness, are reduced to play... As play, babble is a pleasure onto itself. The infant babbles for no reason other than the fact that free sound production is pleasing...the organism as vocal instrument plays and is played upon pleasurably ...This is the instrument before tuning ... Sound is process rather than production. (pp. 76 - 77) "Figures and metaphors....serve to remove the ambiguous sting of the poem hat cuts through our ordinary preoccupations to the intense terror of the primordial question. not knowing who we are nor why we exist, we raise voice in the poem in the hope of eliciting a response....The poems voice, voice's voice, destroys the illusions by which shame and self-deception deaden thought, feeling, and sensate life.(pp. 112 - 113)" _Voice_, David Appelbaum, SUNY, 1990. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:26:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mikl-em Subject: Re: blocking poems > From: David Kellogg > > There's lots of work done on this kind of writing, including several books > on Williams. A book that's part anthology and part critical study is > Jacqueline Vaught Brogan, *Part of the Climate: American Cubist Poetry* (U > of California P, 1991). Of course, that's limited to American poetry, as > the title says. There's also Wendy Steiner's *The Colors of Rhetoric*; I > forget the publication information, but I remember it as strong if overly > jargon-ridden. The first other anthologies to look at are Rothenberg's, > from *Technicians of the Sacred* to the present *Poems for the Millenium* > (with Pierre Joris), which in my view provides the broadest anthology > context ever put together for the intersection of poetry and other art, > including painting. there is also the Emmett Williams edited section "Language Happenings" from Ronald Gross & George Quasha's _Open Poetry_ (Simon & Schuster, 1973), which includes the Brazillian Concretists, Germans, Frenchmen, E. Williams own stuff and muchmuchmore. I'd also mention one more Rothenberg anthology specifically, _Revolution of the Word_ (Seabury Press, 1974). David, who all is covered in the Brogan book? Rexroth in all his comments on Cubist Poetry pretty much said there was naught but his and Yvor Winters' early stuff, and both of those bodies were rather small. So are these more recent writers rediscovering cubism, or writers from the first part of the century who are coming to light or what? mike @taylor.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:36:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: writing threw the body In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 2 May 1996 02:30:47 +0200 from On Thu, 2 May 1996 02:30:47 +0200 Jondi Keane said: >POETICS IS NOT ABOUT POETRY, andit is this relation of body to its thoughts >that needs a Poetics. Discourse follows by "Writing through the body"or not. >Foregrounding (the body) does not have to be a prioritizing, it can, and in This entire post was very interesting; body-centered anti-theory theory. The relation to performance (I'm thinking of Pindar & choruses & dramatic poetry) might prove useful sometime. I think the point I was trying to make is that poetry is a form of communication, i.e. a language; that keeping this in mind might help interpreters & readers in navigating various claims of "writing through the body" - between what is simply playing out of metaphors & what is gesture & body-language etc. - and might forestall simplistic value-judgements about repression/expression etc. Whether coming from the groin or the groan or the grin I would want to withhold calling it "poetry" until I was able to grasp to some extent what is the poetic-communicative message/massage gestalt or whatever. Poetics IS about poetry, that by gum I'll stand-by. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:10:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Ann Kong's Farm Still catching up on old threads. Yes, it's Ann Kong's pig farm not ant farm--her answering machine OGM even throws in an "Oink, Oink": sorry for the typo. A year or so ago, Steve Dickison of Small Press Distribution told me of his epiphanous feeling when he connected the poems and contributor's note he'd just read in the Premonitions galleys with the bleach bottle pigs surrounding him and the busy cook or manager who was ordering people around. When Chris Daniels suggested that the connection with poetry was perhaps "the sweet human ability to love such a thing as a bleach bottle pig --- but i am speaking entirely of myself" something connected for me. Recently I was obsessed with buying all different sorts of stuffed toy rabbits (as well as books, calendars about rabbits, etc.--but no chocolate bunnies) for a rabbit-adoring friend. It helped, of course, that it was right before Easter, when thousands of rabbits come out of their warehouse hutches to perch on retail shelves. This led me to think more generally of toys and dolls again. Maybe one connection is that poems are like "dolls" or miniature replicas of language (and therefore inherently "unheimlich"/uncanny?) and here of course one means much more than a "faithful" reproduction of it, but a prototype, put out in simulated conditons (its relation to "the world", breath, etc.)--I recall also the quotation that Pierre Joris uses in his posts to this list--poetry as the promise of a language, although I wonder if Pierre could spare the time to fill us in a little more on the type of promise being intimated here. I'm sure it's related to why I titled my anthology "Premonitions." Finally, if Chris Daniels, Emily Lloyd, Maria D., Ron Silliman, and "mikl-em" don't mind, I would like to copy the Ann Kong/Pig Farm thread and send it as a greeting to Ann? Do any of you object? Back-channel me at WKL888@AOL.com. Thanks, Walter K. Lew 8 Old Colony Rd. Old Saybrook, CT 06475 (860) 388-4601 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Queer Comparisons >walter, I was about an hour ahead of your pointing towards ann kong...just got my copy of *Premonitions*, and yes, I enjoyed her work very much. (tho curious: who do you have in mind when you say "better than most of the more well-known US poets of Lesbos? not at all disagreeing, just wondering who these are for you). seems as if asian voices have been particularly silenced/absent/whatever from lesbian poetry (good to see inverse not true here)< Emily--Sorry for the late reply on this. At that instant I was thinking of a few active white poets born after 1950 or so who have received some prestigious mainstream prizes. Although the fact Kong's published so little makes comparisons unfair, I just find the poignant/acerbic, nostalgic/mystical, dark/ardent fresh nostalgia of her poems more vivid and well sung. But, of course, there is as much diversity among "poets of Lesbos" as there is among any other grouping and once one considers more poets, it becomes less fruitful to say one is better than the other because what they are doing is so different, sometimes contrary. And where does the queerness reside, emerge? For there is also the question of the difference between a queer poem and a poem seen queerly--how the latter becomes a "critically" queer poem (brought to a "crisis")? (And there are also, of course, queer poems seen straight.) I'm thinking on the analogy of how queer film criticism un-represses Hollywood texts and the Eliot-Pound analysis in Wayne Koestenbaum's _Double Talk, The Erotics of Male Literary Collaboration_ (Routledge 1989). There are also a range of texts in between, say, erotic queer poems and homophobic poems seen queerly: a work like Theresa Hak Kyung Cha's DICTEE, for instance--and here I'm just following up on a suggestion thrown at me one afternoon by the young filmmaker and critic Quentin Lee (USC Film School) one day as he ran down a hall to the next panel. DICTEE!, he said, if that's not a queer text, I don't know what is! Its epigraph is stated as being from Sappho and each of its nine chapters is devoted simultaneously to one of the muses and another more "historical" female figure of adoration (e.g. Joan of Arc, the Korean patriot martyr Yu Guan Soon); aside from passages of ecstatic appeals to or invocations of Christ, heterosexual relations are almost completely neglected or only ironically referred to (there is a criticism of conventional matrimony). On the other hand, sexual attraction or acts are never a narrative element in the book, the Sappho quotation is faked, and certainly none of the growing literature on DICTEE has thought to view it as a Lesbian or even erotic text. Maybe it's just a matter of time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: blocking poems In-Reply-To: <199605030626.XAA00431@kid-linear.taylor.org> > David, who all is covered in the Brogan book? Rexroth in all his > comments on Cubist Poetry pretty much said there was naught but his and > Yvor Winters' early stuff, and both of those bodies were rather small. So > are these more recent writers rediscovering cubism, or writers from the > first part of the century who are coming to light or what? Brogan's book starts around 1910 and ends with the early 1940s. I'm not nearly expert enough to judge its accuracy. One of the interesting things about its arrangement is that it organizes poems according to their original place of publication (magazine), so that Williams, for example, appears in sections devoted to "Others," "Broom," "Secession," "The Exile," "Hound & Horn," "Blues," and "New Directions in Poetry and Prose 1936." Brogan's definition of cubist poetry is pretty loose, so Stevens seems more prominent in this regard than he might be under a more narrow classificaiton. Other prominent figures in the book are Loy, Stein, cummings, Zukofsky (including "Poem beginning 'The'" (!!)), Winters, Rexroth. Some reviews and editorials from the period are also included. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:11:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Other Asian American Lesbian Poets Still trying to catch up before I head out of town... re: Emily Lloyd's inquiry about >kitty tsui, who's not in *Premonitions* but is highly anthologized & regarded in the queergirl community.< A good observation. One of the functions of _Premonitions_ was to question the repeated anthologization of certain Asian American poets, according to the criteria stated in its Afterword. You will note that the book does not include a good number of poets that have become the standard "Asian American" inclusions in mainstream and/or multiculturalist anthologies, ranging from the Norton's to jazz poetry collections, if they did not send work that was not already well-circulated or not significantly different from their previously celebrated writing. Another frequently included queer poet who does not appear in Premonitions is Nellie Wong, much of whose work I love. It was time to give anthology space to willyce kim (the first openly Asian American lesbian writer to publish whole volumes of poetry, she's also published two very episodic novels, and is stacks supervisor at the UC Berkeley library), Thelma Seto, Ann Kong, and work like the video "Red Lolita" (which its artist, Gloria Park says is not queer, but I feel nonetheless wonderfully evokes queer issues--do you agree?). It's good to hear that Kitty is highly regarded in queergirl circles; I hope this will be true of a wider range of poets in the near future and that it will encourage them to publish more. But then this is beginning to sound so patronizing I start to wonder why Walter K. Lew 8 Old Colony Rd. Old Saybrook, CT 06475 (860) 388-4601 (phone/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Ann Kong's Farm wally: you say much. re bunnies: 'member when priscilla's mod* (and yours?) bought you a pet rabbit for -was it your birthday? lo these many years ago? i sstill remember the look of bewilderment on your face as the rest of us evaporated into giggles. (and remember when you and i dressed her cello case up as a blues singer? (*mod: hampshire college lingo for apartment). sure, send greeetings to Kong and pigs. re poems as miniature: a wonderful book is Longing, by Susan Stewart. I teach it with elizabeth bishop. its about tourism, miniatures, giganticism, souvenirs, etc. stewart is also a poet. love, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:12:32 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: re; blocking poems I would suggest going to the source: Mallarme's A throw of the dice will never abolish chance. And then on to Selected Essays, Letters, and Prose which is on Johns Hopkins (1956?). Whatever is to remain sacred must be shrouded in mystery. If the interest is in WCW specifically, try out _Cubism, Steglitz, and WCW_ (Dykstra was the author I believe). If your interest is in the formations of concrete poetry in the US, check out Kenneth Patchen's Journal of Albion Moonlight, Sleepers Awake, or the painting books especially the fairly recent color one _What shall we do without us?_ After these I would check out an anthology of concrete poetry that Richard Kostelanetz put together in 1972, there's a book on Illinois UP (or the Ann Arbor Writer's on Writing Series book) that will give you the name of which anthology deals with the subject As far as criticism the best book I've read on the subject was a recent one (1994) which traced the work of the painter, Francis Bacon, with semiotic and linguistic theory. The book is wild, giving an involved assessment of possible narratologies that are availiable to painters. Here I am again sans library. It should be easy to find, with the exception of David Sylvester's books there are only 2 or 3 others written that aren't purely art books. Be Well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:37:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Writing Threw the Brain The recent discussion on writing through the body reminded me of a long quote from Julian Jaynes' "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the of the Bicameral Mind" I used in a piece I wrote about a year ago. I used it to emphasize how imagination and experience are often juxtaposed in descriptions of form, but I think it's also a good example, in the extreme, of the tendency to invoke biological determinism once the body is established as a locus or origin of a given process or action, a condition which is probably a result, not a cause, of what Jondi Keane called "the legacy of sensations produced by reflective values." "Poetry begins as the divine speech of the bicameral mind. Then as the bicameral mind breaks down, there remain prophets. Some become institutionalized as oracles making decisions for the future. While others become specialized into poets, relating from the gods statements about the past. Then, as the bicameral mind shrinks back from its impulsiveness, and as perhaps a certain reticence falls upon the right hemisphere, poets who are to obtain this same state must learn to do it. As this becomes more difficult, the state becomes a fury, and then ecstatic possessions, just as happened in the oracles. And then indeed toward the end of the first millennium B. C., just as the oracles began to become prosaic and their statements versified consciously, so poetry also. Its givenness by the unison Muses has vanished. And conscious men now wrote and crossed out and careted and rewrote their compositions in laborious mimesis of the older divine utterances" (Jaynes 374-375). "Bicameral men did not imagine; they experienced. The beautiful Muses with their unison "lilly-like" voice, dancing out of the thick mists of evening, thumping on soft and vigorous feet about the lonely enraptured shepherd, these arrogances of delicacy were the hallucinatory sources of memory in the late bicameral men, men who did not live in a frame of past happenings, who did not have 'lifetimes' in our sense, and who could not reminisce because they were not fully conscious" (Jaynes 371). Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:35:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Writing Threw the Brain In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 3 May 1996 13:37:11 EDT from <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> On Fri, 3 May 1996 13:37:11 EDT Ward Tietz said: >form, but I think it's also a good example, in the extreme, of the tendency to >invoke biological determinism once the body is established as a locus or origin >of a given process or action, a condition which is probably a result, not a >cause, of what Jondi Keane called "the legacy of sensations produced by >reflective values." If the body writes, then if we define the body as some kind of separate locus-organism, we simply create an old Descartian grid with new vocabulary. What's the body? The body is part of a cosmos-body-thingum. But I will admit - breathing sometimes helps writing. >And then indeed toward the end of the first millennium B. C., just as the >oracles began to become prosaic and their statements versified consciously, so >poetry also. Its givenness by the unison Muses has vanished. And conscious >men >now wrote and crossed out and careted and rewrote their compositions in >laborious mimesis of the older divine utterances" (Jaynes 374-375). Nagy's book Poetry as Performance is again relevant here, where he describes the Alexandrian codification & centralization of both the Homeric poems and the Septuagint (a movement begun supposedly in both cases by one person! Now what-th-body was his name...some Greek...) into texts - the "descent" from script to scripture... Invention of writing - techne - like the invention of a mammoth mirror - suddenly we're bicameral - me & that chump in the glass - but the way back isn't through breaking the mirror - text is tactile - blind Milton, seeing fingers, visual poetry - open the scrypt - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 18:18:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: poetry/music gig Comments: To: cris cheek Ken Edwards will be performing his poem-with-music "Bruised Rationals" with the COMA London & South East Ensemble (conductor: Simon Foxley) at a concert on Monday May 6 at 7.30 pm at The Friends' Centre, Ship Street, Brighton. The complete bill is: Plain Harmony Michael Finnissy (conducted by the composer) Olson III Terry Riley From Blake's Milton Paul Burnell* The Desire & Pursuit of the Whole is Called Love Patrick Morris Bruised Rationals Ken Edwards* The Glistening Sand, Sky and Sea John Alexander (conducted by the composer) Admission 3 pounds (concessions 1.50 pounds) * World premieres PS "Bruised Rationals" will also be performed by the COMA Ensemble as part of the Spitalfields Fesitval, at Spitalfields Church, London, on Tuesday June 11. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 07:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: landers@vivanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: landers Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: As Williams is to painting/photography It seems to me that with all the parallels we drew between poets and music, noone compared WCW to a musical type. Perhaps he, and Creeley, are better compared to painters and photographers than to musicians. Not that this is the only way to see them, but maybe it's a more appropriate pair-'o-dig-'em. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 18:22:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Rising Higgins Subject: Re: Williams & Painting Many years ago I read an collection of essays called The Hieroglyphics of Speech which gives anecdotal bio data regarding Williams early efforts at painting followed by a preference for the rather lighter materials required for poetry construction...perhaps the book is still in print. mrh ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 19:22:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: re; blocking poems In-Reply-To: Message of 05/03/96 at 10:12:32 from dave.baratier@MOSBY.COM I suspect that the book on Francis Bacon, title of which Baratier was trying to come up with, was "Francis Bacon & the Loss of Self," by Ernst van Alphen, smart young Nederlandish literary scholar; UK edition, Reaktion Books, 1992, don't know about the US edition. Good as it is, I'm not sure it's all that relevant to the current thread: has more to do with narrative than with the visual in poetry. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 19:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Writing Threw the Brain wrt this question of the body, and ward tietz's intriguing response to jondi keane's intriguing elaboration: i too have found mind vs. body controversies to be reflected in the mind/brain couple, esp. given that many cogsci researchers see the 90s as the "decade of the brain"... seems to me one might look at related articulations to ascertain what they yield in this context... chief among which, way back at the beginning of the 90s, are mark turner's _reading minds: the study of english in the age of cognitive science_ (princeton up, 1991) and what i would pose almost as a retort to turner, francisco varela/evan thompson/eleanor rosch's _the embodied mind_ (mit p, 1991)... i far prefer the varela et. al. text to the turner treatment, albeit it too is not w/o its liabilities... note that three of turner's chapters are entitled "the poetry of connections" (!)... his is an attempt to reproduce the logic of cognitive science at the level of language practice, incl. metaphor (through "cognitive rhetoric")... extremely deterministic, yes, even an implied *genetic* gradient mebbe, yet a measure of the sorts of reductions one might expect when looking to science alone to furnish answers to questions that invoke socially-constitutive practices... i might in this context also mention richard powers' superb novel _the gold bug variations_... i know of no book that goes as far in exploring language/dna intricacies... anyway, it's likely that any simple theoretical or scientific access to the body will result in a reification... on the other hand, i can't quite imagine how we're to understand the body as a language-organism without recourse both to poetic and to (properly conceived) scientific/technological thinking (such as, for example, maturana and varela's "autopoiesis," which resonates well with olson's "proprioception")... that is, my own predilection is for a more complex understanding of language as it relates to the organism, and without (for example) eliminating that social gradient... but that's just me... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 22:37:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Writing Threw the Brain In-Reply-To: <199605050015.TAA03904@charlie.acc.iit.edu> intriguing comment. for some time i've been mulling the endlessly repeated languageisallwecanknowdetermineseverything when it's in reality the body (impulses, synapses, nerves, rhythms) isallwecanknow<-->deter- mines everything? On Sat, 4 May 1996, Joe Amato wrote: > wrt this question of the body i might in this context also mention richard powers' superb novel _the gold bug variations_... i know of no book that goes as far in exploring > language/dna intricacies... > > anyway, it's likely that any simple theoretical or scientific access to the > body will result in a reification... on the other hand, i can't quite > imagine how we're to understand the body as a language-organism without > recourse both to poetic and to (properly conceived) > scientific/technological thinking (such as, for example, maturana and > varela's "autopoiesis," which resonates well with olson's > "proprioception")... that is, my own predilection is for a more complex > understanding of language as it relates to the organism, and without (for > example) eliminating that social gradient... but that's just me... > > joe > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 22:10:45 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Minnesota! I'm writing to say that my good friend, Marie Hara, will be reading at the Asian American Renaissance Center in St. Paul, Minnesota on Thursday, May 9, at 7:30. She is the author of _Bananaheart_, a book of short stories set in Hawai'i. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 22:18:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: TINFISH! There will be a TINFISH reading on Tuesday, May 14, at 7:30 at the Meeting Place Cafe on Kamakee Street in Honolulu. Readers will include Joe Balaz, Richard Hamasaki, Rob Wilson and Sean MacBeth, Kathy Dee Kaleokealoha Kaloloahilani Banggo, Tony Quagliano, and the editor, Susan Schultz. Unfortunately, Eric Chock has other obligations. We are hoping to tape the reading for the Electronic Poetry Center, despite the presence (and noise) of a nearby construction site. Best wishes to list members who have contributed to the journal; there's still time to buy your airline tickets and read with us! Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 11:23:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Cite Lines: Duncan/Olson Here are two questions: --> Does anyone have a *clue* where this quote from Robert Duncan might have come from? It's a passage I'm very fond of. (My thought is it's from a periodical but I can't seem to find it in that _Sulfur_ 35 with the special Duncan stuff. So then I'm thinking - what other periodical might it be - if it is in a periodical??) "When poets were really jugglers, they got everything in the air and bouncing around. In that period they wanted that out of poetry, they wanted an amazing assortment of things." --> "Form is never more than an extension of content". Of course Olson refers to Creeley saying this in his "Projective Verse" essay. BUT - is this a quote that exists anywhere? I've looked through the correspondence and I do see some wording similar to this but I don't find this EXACT quote. (ie, what Olson cites of Creeley in Creeley's own words) Did I miss this? Is it common knowledge that Olson is rephrasing Creeley and I am simply unaware of it??? You may of course, if you prefer - respond to me directly and not to the list: lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 15:07:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Re: Poetry and Body WHAT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND IS POETRY IS CONNECTED TO THE BODY AGAIN Jean allowed the body to drop The beautiful face bluing so perfect A fly buzzed by - but no one would believe it She raced frantically to the offices of the National Enquirer A reporter wrote up the story - it made the cover Now she could get the attention of the radical newsweekly That only told the truth She just casually flipped it down on the desk "Hey," an editor reading upside-down said, "What if this story is true? It would certainly change Our story - maybe we should look into this. Hey! Stop those presses!" Jean walked away. Horns were blaring, It was a brilliant dusty sunset and the sirens were distorting. She didn't hear em. She was remembering her lover's face, What they'd said about how you never know If someone else's orgasm is better than yours But that shoudn't stop you From coming together Even if it's not exactly At the same time. Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 11:57:27 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh - 3809183 Subject: Re: creeley quote In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960505152346.00698a20@pop.acsu.buffalo.edu>; from "Loss Glazier" at May 5, 96 11:23 am 5/5 In Creeley's letter to O -- Monday / june 5 / 1950 (anniversary next month!) -- "Anyhow, form has now become so useless a term/ that I blush to use it. I wd imply a little of Stevens' use (the things created in a poem and existing there . . .) & too, go over into: the possible casts or methods for a way into/ a 'subject': to make it clear: that form is never more than an extension of content. An enacted or possible 'stasis' for thought. Means to." You'll find it in _The Complete Correspondence_ Vol. I -- in the Black Sparrow edition (1980) where i found it, on p. 79. & just for fun: "Stevens' use" refers back to an earlier letter (April 28/50) in which Creeley: "Thinking of Stevens, who slipped into PR, with this: 'Poetic form in its proper sense is a question of what appears within the poem itself. . . By appearance within the poem itself one means the things created and existing there. . .' Basic." -- A note gives the Stevens quote from: a symposium on "The State of American Writing, 1948," _Partisan Review_, 15 (Aug. 1948), 885. I'd be obliged to anyone who can point me to something that investigates this Creeley/Stevens connection re form/content -- or more generally on Stevens' influence on C (and/or O). bill marsh wmarsh@nunic.nu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:47:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Book Announcement (forward) From: IN%"chadwick@crl.com" "Cydney Chadwick" 5-MAY-1996 14:16:24.87 To: IN%"Ls0796@cnsvax.albany.edu" "Chris Stroffolino" CC: IN%"chadwick@crl.com" "Cydney Chadwick" Subj: Will you? Return-path: Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (MAILER@UICVM) by cnsvax.albany.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #8051) id <01I4CLF9YC6O8WZNF9@cnsvax.albany.edu> for Ls0796@cnsvax.albany.edu; Sun, 05 May 1996 14:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UICVM (NJE origin SMTPSRV2@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5278; Sun, 05 May 1996 13:14:13 -0500 Received: from mail.crl.com by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 05 May 1996 13:14:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from crl11.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA06479 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 05 May 1996 11:10:01 -0700 Received: by crl11.crl.com id AA16604 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Sun, 05 May 1996 11:06:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 11:06:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Cydney Chadwick Subject: Will you? X-Sender: chadwick@crl11.crl.com To: Chris Stroffolino Cc: Cydney Chadwick Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Will you please forward this post to the Poetics List? Your review copy is going out tomorrow. Thanks! Cyd New from Avec Books Channel-Surfing the Apocalypse (a day in the life of the fin-de-millennium mind) by Susan Smith Nash /Fiction/ Women's Studies/Cultural Studies Channel-Surfing the Apocalypse is a collection of outrageously funny, poignant and insightful no-holds-barred fictions from a writer who characterizes them as,"stories about and from women driven mad by dysfunctional relationships." And yet, the stories are more than installations in the current soap-opera of gender wars. They peel the armor off of the souls of men and women facing the millennium and attendant apocalyptic madness. Like all fiction written during times of universal insanity, these stories are not mad diaries. These "furious fictions" are intensely sane and personal, and they leave the reader with a sense of restored perspective and good humor. They appeal to readers who are interested in gender issues, women's studies, experimental fiction and cultural criticism. Selections from the book have been awarded a Gertrude Stein Award for Innovative Writing. A critically-commended video based on a chapter from thebook, which features the author and her voice , is also available. "Susan Smith Nash's book Channel-Surfing the Apocalypse is very interesting. It is certainly a new approach to an area of writing. . .can I call it fiction(?). You cannot read this book without paying attention. . .it demands attention...demands a double-take. Susan Smith Nash deserves such attention. She has created an up-to-the-minute post-AIDS statement." --William S. Burroughs "Insistently parochial, the voice in this book is Oklahoma unalloyed. The apocalypse arrived early here, on television, and this fertile, lyrical, creepy, ovidian book is its detonating antiphon. Remarkable."--Diane Middlebrook "Susan Smith Nash is a reporter commissioned by the muses, a kind of higher intensity poet-version of Christiane Amanpour, reporting live from all the intimate and mysterious combat zone that fill our world with terror."--Robert Kelly "The works of Susan smith Nash are fireworks, with much more than flash. They are bold, funny, and brilliant, illuminating corners of the literary landscape that have been dark for a long time." --Beth Joselow Pub. Date: May 2, 1996. ISBN: 1-880713-06-3. Price $11.95. 192 pages. Perfect Bound. Distributed to the trade by Baker & Taylor; Bookpeople and Small Press Distribution. For Direct orders: Avec Books, P.O. Box 1059, Penngrove, CA 94951 (please add $1.50 shipping). Note to booksellers: a discount is available with prepayment ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 20:29:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Small Press Distribution? In-Reply-To: <01I4CQQGDTR6HV9BW3@cnsvax.albany.edu> I used to be on SPD's mailing list, receive their catalog, order from them, etc., but haven't in a while. I can't find an address for them and would appreciate some one among you posting it. (There have been several recent mentions of SPD on the Poetics List but I haven't seen the address.) I'd appreciate phone and fax numbers for them too. E-mail? Thank you. Bill William Slaughter _________________ wrs@unf.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 12:24:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: ars poetica magazine (forwarded) >Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 10:41:47 +1000 >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL: ars poetica magazine >Sender: LISTSERVER@banks.ntu.edu.au >To: Australian Literature Discussion >Reply-to: AUSTLIT@banks.ntu.edu.au >MIME-version: 1.0 > >The following information has been posted by AWOL on behalf of ars poetica. >Please address any enquiries to the contact address for the magazine listed >below > >************************************************************** > >ars poetica > >New quality national poetry journal. > >VOLUME 2 NOW AVAILABLE > >Aust$7.00 per copy. Aust$20 one year subscription (3 volumes). Please make >cheques out to ars poetica. > >SUBMISSIONS FOR VOLUME 3 NOW BEING SOUGHT >Send submissions, brief bio and ssae to ars poetica PO Box 455 Bairnsdale >Victoria Australia 3875 > >Also seeking artwork (will consider any genre) for cover of ars poetica 3. >Closing date for submissions for No. 3 is 20 July 1996. > >Payment to contributors is two copies of the volume in which their work >appears. Please allow up to six weeks for response to submissions. > > >ars poetica volume II' will be launched by Michael Dugan on 11 May, 1996. >6-8pm with readings by: Earl Livings, Vera Urban, John Jenkins, Catherine >Magree and Michael Crane at the Hawthorn Lower Town Hall 360 Burwood Rd, >Hawthorn, as part of the Booroondara Literary Festival (formerly the >Hawthorn Lit. Festival). Entry is free, and a light supper will be provided >for what promises to be an excellent evening's poetry. ALL WELCOME! > > > > >******************************************************* > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 12:33:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: H/EAR WAS Re: Ear on Saturday >Sat. May 4th @ 2:30 (yes, PM) > >Robert Mittenthal >& Rod Smith > >Ear Inn, 326 Spring Street, NYC >ph 226 9060 >Not free, sort of. I was just wondering if anybody had heard of / or contributed to Kris Hemnesly's wonderful magazine EAR IN A WHEATFIELD (I think) which latter became a poetry gossip/correspondance magazineH/EAR????? __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)351 5066 FAX:(02)351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 21:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Small Press Distribution? Small Press Distribution Inc 1814 San Pablo Avenue Berkeley, CA 94702 510-549-3336 (phone) 510-549-2201 (fax) >I used to be on SPD's mailing list, receive their catalog, order from >them, etc., but haven't in a while. I can't find an address for them and >would appreciate some one among you posting it. (There have been several >recent mentions of SPD on the Poetics List but I haven't seen the address.) >I'd appreciate phone and fax numbers for them too. E-mail? Thank you. > >Bill > >William Slaughter >_________________ >wrs@unf.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:16:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Cambridge Conference on Contemporary Poetry Hi, re - CCCP 6, in Peter's wake, not a great deal to add. I was present for all of it but the session on magazine editing during which I drove to Norwich to pick up a poem that David Marriott had requested (first request I've ever done) and also listen in on some electronic treatments of weaving machines for a forthcoming installation by Sianed Jones called 'Carthen'. SO my editing session was perhaps more lively and enjoyable than the report backs I got from those who stayed on in the hall. However, most of the readings were pretty packed. Of those that Peter didn't make or mention. Simon Perrill described other unnamed poets as producing work 'paling into significance'. He read strongly as did Mas Abe who I enjoyed most when he read in Japanese and Adrian Harding whose work I didn't known and will certainly try to follow, there being something coming and going there in a ruminative everyday consciousness gardening that I want to read more closely. Lisa Robertson read very confidently from 'Debbie', measured and arrowing thickets of irony / Les Murray was unprepossessing and jovial (he had a pretty good bat poem which went off into giggling bat language) and there seemed to be cattle all over his writing which has left a humane trace without setting this particular bush on fire. Ian Patterson gave us the best Duino Elegy translation I've heard to date (I've tried to encourage him to do the whole series and get them published, terrific work). As usual in England the gremlin was a lack of places to go eating late at night (meaning any time after 11!), so post-reading get downs tend to degenerate into scurries round emptying streets for fast food or even worse after last orders and the bars tip out. Sunday began in the afternoon (Brian Catling, Caroline Bergvall and myself had all protested at being expected to perform in the morning). I read 'Skin upon sKin' which will be out on CD in about 6 weeks (I know the dates keep fading, but it's really on the way - backed with a version of the recently published 'stranger'), Caroline read two fine recentish pieces 'The Hungry Form' and 'Don't Push It' whilst Brian read from 'Cyclops' material alongside rough edits of videos from various version of that. What can I say - I though we were all terrific. It's worth noting here that many of the poets at this year's conference read from long work. In mine and Caroline and Brian's cases the writing is versioned in various ways so as to become 'pieces' of multi-faceted performance writing through which aspects of peritext are frequently exploded, exploited and re-situated into version upon version. Harry Gilonis performed a generous and breath-stretching tribute to Sorley Maclean using pibroche (basically bagpipe form) musical constraints effectively (I'm looking forward to the simultaneous English-Gaelic version Harry if you're here). Rod Dickinson is a poet well worth checking out for those who don't already know his work. Brilliant sonic elision's using Gaelic to punch exquisite interferent holes into the scope of his writing. The glosses also being cogent. Finally we had a strange (for me) mixture of Kelvin Corcoran (who's just not a confident presenter of his own work - you know, oh-oh, I really think that there shouldn't be any expectation on poets to have to read or to be able to read. I know it's a way of getting around and so on (and some awkwardnesses can be utterly compelling, but . . . any thoughts anyone?), Alan Halsey who chose, a misjudgement in my opinion, to read Robin Hood stories. The grouping was lifted by Pascal Monnier who sounded intriguingly elliptoid and discursive, through my so-so French (so I'm probably completely wrong - those might just be the features of my processing) and I could have listened for longer than she was given. But a good conference all in all. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:15:57 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: H/EAR WAS Re: Ear on Saturday >I was just wondering if anybody had heard of / or contributed to Kris >Hemnesly's wonderful magazine EAR IN A WHEATFIELD (I think) which latter >became a poetry gossip/correspondance magazineH/EAR????? Hi Mark, well mm yes. I was never in it but Kris was based in Britain where the magazine first emerged before he split for Australia in the mid 1970s. Other s here might be able to tell you more. I think its follow up magazine was named 'the merry creek or nero' (?) of which I've got a copy somewhere, but don't expect me to put a quick hand onto it. Kris was editing here at the same time as the extraordinary Fluxshoe series / Paul Buck's excellent 'Curtains' / Allen Fisher's 'Spanner' (still in progress and about to go net versions) / Pierre Joris' 'Sixpack' / Elaine Randall's 'Amazing Grace'. Hey're all well worth checking out. STill exceptionally vibrant work - in my humble estimation. Is Kris still active? love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 13:22:13 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jondi Keane Subject: body peotics Henry Gould wrote <> perhaps peotics has been taken up into poetry the way testicles are taken up into the martial artist. It is an activity which requires much learning and dicipline but ultimately is a defensive posture based on a peculiar idea of conservation, and from where not much productive can be done. Thanks to Ward for the bicameral quote because we always need more ways to think about the configurations of experience and imagination with structure, but again I feel this book is a story, or description of how Discourse interprets and sets up a model for understanding, and then tells it to itself. Lyotard's "The Differend" is useful here in remembering that "A Wrong results from the fact that the rules of the genre of discourse by which one judges are not those of the judged genre or genres of discourse" and states the problem as "the absence of a universal genre of discourse to regulate..., to find, if not what can legimate judgement, the "good" linkage, then at least how to save the honor of thinking". He is using the legal language (the Wrong) which is a bit blown up but the point that the terms of regimes of thought developed in discours of language with mind brain or body are different and suffer from transportation/translation. Texts which tell most in these matters I think are those which do not necessarily speak of this issue, but issue from the places we have been discussing. the extreme examples are perhaps best: Writing from the brain, from an organ which organizes, interprets, reticularly activtes, but also produes sounds, light and images inside itself,observed and then set down in writing, would be Pantanjali. Writing from the body, even from impossible places that require bodily knowledge would be perhaps Franz Kamin's "Srcibble Death". And Writing from a moment of crystalline indecision constructed from the infintie possibilities of both would be the romantic moment, perhaps most easily, Coleridge. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 13:30:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Oisleand - New Cybertext ** Apologies for cross postings ** Oisleand --- --- Indra's Net IX oilean is la brea lunasa do chorp ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ broad filling sails ocean heat island flesh ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 'Oisle=E1nd' is an exploration of the translation and transformation of one written language into another. In its cybertextual form (as computer software encoding a literary object - specifically a HyperCard stack and graphics files which you may download as shareware) it uses mesostic techniques to sow the text of either original or translation within the spelt words of the parallel text in its corresponding language.=20 A set of 'Frozen & Painted Readings'=20 - colour screen shots which capture and make=20 clear the principles have been posted on the Web at: http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/in/oisleand.html If you have not visited the 'Indra's Net' site recently, please do so. There is a lot of new material: http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/in/ 'Oisleand' (excuse the lack of diacritical marks in this text announcement) was commissioned as one contribution to a touring exhibition of visual art / craft engagements with poetic writing entitled 'Words Revealed'. (The exhibition opens at the Midlands Art Centre, Birmingham, UK, 11 May 1996.) Apart from its visual content, the exhibition was developed around a focus on writing in Irish, or by Irish writers in English. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:18:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: body peotics In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 5 May 1996 13:22:13 +0200 from On Sun, 5 May 1996 13:22:13 +0200 Jondi Keane said: > Henry Gould wrote <I would want to withhold calling it "poetry" until I was able to grasp to >some extent what is the poetic-communicative message/massage gestalt >or whatever. Poetics IS about poetry, that by gum I'll stand-by.>> > >perhaps peotics has been taken up into poetry the way testicles are taken up >into the martial artist. It is an activity which requires much learning and >dicipline but ultimately is a defensive posture based on a peculiar idea of >conservation, and from where not much productive can be done. I take it this is a "slight". I'm not sure where it's issuing FROM, but I see what it's writing TO: the solar plexus. Nevertheless, I don't think Jondi at least in this post has addressed my previous remark: that the idea that writing issues "from" some particular psycho-organic place - whatever the new thrills of intellectual exploration it may seem to provide - is already structured on some kind of unstated grid which, like Descartes, divides body from mind. My point was that poetry takes as its domain the "body" of the universe, and poetics is the study of what poetry makes of it. Poetry might include toe-talk and martial arts, but toe- talkology will not replace poetics in that field. The "talk" of the body might be included in all the repressed or missed sensations which poetry tries to bring to light, but once body starts talking in language it's already entered the sphere of poetics. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 09:05:23 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: visual poetry invite (forward) Date: Mon May 6 00:23:02 1996 From: juanra@chasque.apc.org (Juan Ramos Alvite) Subject: padin AMERICAN VISUAL POETRY EXPOSITION I am asked you to send me one or two visual poems (size 44x28 cm. aprox. including white margins) for an exposition at the IV Congress of the Brazilian Poetry. This invitation is only for americans (other people are preparing shows from other continents). Visual poetry are works that primordially use the images of the language-signs whatever its form or support may assume, with semantic expression or not, with signs of other languages or not etc. Deadline: July 30, 1996.- Please, invite your friends Send to: Clemente Padin-C.Correo Central 1211-11000-Montevideo URUGUAY. Fraternal Greetings: Clemente PADVN.- lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 10:04:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Tietjens Subject: peo ple apo ria And Writing from a moment of crystalline indecision constructed from the infintie possibilities of both would be the romantic moment, perhaps most easily, Coleridge. ---- So poetics is the testicles of poetry? ---- 'What has been done by people who have found themselves discussing Coleridge has been, usually I think, to put a ring-fence round a very small part of his thought, and say, "We will keep inside this and leave the transcendental and the analytic discussions to someone else." But this practice results in what is essentially a fraud.' --I. A. Richards ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 09:22:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "M. Magoolaghan" Subject: Re: creeley quote In-Reply-To: <199605051857.LAA23573@nunic.nu.edu> On Sun, 5 May 1996, William Marsh - 3809183 wrote: > > I'd be obliged to anyone who can point me to something that investigates > this Creeley/Stevens connection re form/content -- or more generally on > Stevens' influence on C (and/or O). > > bill marsh dear billiam: nice to see you on the list! thanks for tracing down the form/content quote. wrt stevens' influence on creeley, see the spring '93 special issue of _the wallace stevens journal_, which contains an interesting short piece by creeley called "in respect of wallace stevens" (it begins: "i recall being very intent upon stevens in college days") as well as responses to stevens by the likes of kathleen fraser, bob perelman, charles bernstein, and many others. not sure what olson thought of wally, though i'd be curious to find out. that's all for now--mo' later, mm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I hear you say: "All that is not *fact*; it is poetry." Nonsense! Bad poetry is false, I grant, but nothing is truer than true poetry. And let me tell the scientific men that the artists are much finer and more accurate observers than they are, except of the special minutiae that the scientific man is looking for. --Charles S. Peirce, Collected Papers 1.316 Michael Magoolaghan mmagoola@u.washington.edu Webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~mmagoola ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 12:41:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Visual page; Stevens and Creeley Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Another anthology of interest for anyone pursuing questions of page design: L. C. Breunig's *The Cubist Poets in Paris* (U of Nebraska P, 1995?)--first part of the century, as you'd expect from the title, non-English language with facing translations. Bill Marsh: on Stevens and Creeley--Albert Gelpi edited an essay collection some years ago, *Wallace Stevens: The Poetics of Modernism* (Cambridge, 1985), in which Michael Davidson and I both have essays that touch on the Stevens-Creeley connection in passing without pursuing in depth. Still, you might find the general context of the essays relevant to your questions. Michael's piece is on Stevens and contemporary poetics, mine is on intersections between the allegedly opposed (or so they tended to be seen then) Stevens and Objectivist lines, via a discussion of WS and Zukofsky (something on which our listmate, Mark Scroggins, has done more recent and fine work). Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 12:57:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: apopleptic in peoria, is not so what then is not writing through the body. I take it a natural history of the senses is not writing through the body tho empire of the senseless might be. that is [gestalt and] not compartmentality. is not professional wrestling fixed. --Jd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 13:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: apoplectic in mississippi sorry lost my dialeptic anybody seen her?--Jd (I mean my diallel) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 13:27:31 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: blocking poems Ernst Van Alphen, thats it, thanks. From my understanding, this thread was not only asking about cubism, concrete poetry and the like, but also about transferrence between the visual experience and its subsequent translation onto the page. This residue of activity apparent in the finished product is freshly captured within the Alphen book. This text also seques into the "body" thread, for Bacon believed the human body was in a sense a filter, apart from its other attributes, abbreviating experience into intensity. Be Well. David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 14:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew S Sackmann Subject: I'm sorry... In-Reply-To: could someone please take me off this list, im going home for the summer. id still like to continue receiving the discussions so if someone could send me the info to subscribe at lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks A lot!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- matt "Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse, not from rules." -William Blake ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 12:42:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: beckett Just back from the Beckett festival in Victoria. Saw 21 plays! Heard a lot of papers, but the papers were not as interesting as the productions. For me the highlight was Fred Neumann's performance in _Worstward Ho_. Of course, one is lucky to see it, because he is so good, and because other actors are afraid to do it because Neumann has sett his stamp on it. Contorski was there with his Beckett haircut and too-short pants, nice touch, that. "Toujours est-il que je redoute le signal de l'horrible petite trompette." -- Cocteau George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 19:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: pbeidler@epas.utoronto.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Beidler Organization: University of Toronto Subject: L E G A C I E S conference cfp Comments: To: 18th Century Interdisciplinary Discussion , aesthetics , cfp , e-grad , nassr-l , phil-lit , VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society Call for Papers: L E G A C I E S A cross-disciplinary conference hosted by the Nineteenth-Century Group at the University of Toronto September 27-29, 1996 Our keynote speakers are Sally Mitchell (Temple University) and Michael Millgate (University of Toronto). The theme of this year's conference is the cultural manifestations of inheritance in the period 1780-1901. Possible topics might include, but are not limited to: * Narrative, Genre and Tradition * Heredity and Genetics * Initiation and Baptism * History, Memory and Identity * Patronage and the Arts * Wills and Bequests * Change, Stasis and the Law * Convention and Invention * Original Sin and Adamism We encourage papers and panels that investigate literature, history, drama, fashion, economics, music and the performative arts, theology, philosophy, the law, technology and industrial design, politics and science in the period from graduate students, faculty and independent scholars. Please send 300-500 word abstracts (3 copies) postmarked no later than June 1, 1996 to: Legacies Conference Committee Graduate Department of English University of Toronto 7 King's College Circle Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1 Abstracts and queries can also be e-mailed to Ann-Barbara Graff at ann.graff@utoronto.ca or faxed to 416-978-5184. Please see our web site for updates: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca:8080/~pbeidler/legacies.htm /*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\/*\ "It is our nature to wish to continue our systems and thoughts to posterity through our own offspring." (_The Last Man_, Mary Shelley) "I have often thought that property, coming in such a way, was a curse, and that the parties could have been far better off, had the parent had merely a blessing to bequeath them from his or her lips, instead of a will for them to dispute and wrangle over. " (_Advice to Young Men_, William Cobbett) "Women are generally thought to possess sweeter voices than men, and as far as this serves as any guide we may infer that they first acquired musical powers in order to attract the other sex. But if so, this must have occurred long ago, before the progenitors of man had become sufficiently human to treat and value their women merely as useful slaves." (_The Descent of Man_, Darwin) "The creation of a thousand forests is in one acorn, and Egypt, Greece, Rome, Gaul, Britain, America, lie folded already in one man." ("History," Emerson) Outward respect of word and manner, may and must be shown even though the parent be drunken and depraved. The girl should strive to show respect. Father and mother are honourable names even though the bearers thereof fail to act up to them. Anonymous, _Girls: Their Work and Influence_ (1879) (a religious tract for females of the lower classes) -- "I am uneasy to approve of one object and disapprove of another; call one thing beautiful, and another deform'd; decide concerning truth and falsehood, reason and folly, without knowing upon which principles I proceed. I am concern'd for the condition of the learned world, which lies under such a deplorable ignorance in all these particulars. I feel an ambition to arise in me of contributing go the instruction of mankind, and of acquiring a name by my inventions and discoveries. These sentiments spring up naturally in my present disposition; and shou'd I endeavour to banish them, by attaching myself to any other business or diversion, I _feel_ I shou'd be a loser in point of pleasure; and this is the origin of my philosophy." David Hume, _A Treatise of Human Nature_ I.iv.7. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 18:20:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: queery In-Reply-To: <318E8F2A.6CB4@epas.utoronto.ca> hello all-- i will be teaching creative writing in the fall, and would very much like to take a look at june jordan's poerty for the people "textbook"--but i can't find it in books in print--it isn't out of print, is it??! does anyone out there know the exact title?--this might help my search! thanks so much, shaunanne ps--i know this is a poetics list, but i also have to teach fiction in this calss--anyone got any ideas for a "text" here? st ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 22:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: knimmo@ic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kurt Nimmo Subject: Poetry website Hi, folks... I'm new to the list. Still lurking, checking out the discussion. If you have a web browser (preferably Netscape 1.2 or later), please feel free to check out the following poetry website: http://ic.net/~knimmo/pngon01.htm We are also accepting submissions for future issues. Thanks... Kurt Nimmo knimmo@ic.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 23:11:03 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Book Announcement (forward) Cydney thought this might not have gotten through... apologies if it's a repeat... lbd New from Avec Books _Channel-Surfing the Apocalypse_ (a day in the life of the fin-de-millennium mind) by Susan Smith Nash /Fiction/ Women's Studies/Cultural Studies _Channel-Surfing the Apocalypse_ is a collection of outrageously funny, poignant and insightful no-holds-barred fictions from a writer who characterizes them as,"stories about and from women driven mad by dysfunctional relationships." And yet, the stories are more than installations in the current soap-opera of gender wars. They peel the armor off of the souls of men and women facing the millennium and attendant apocalyptic madness. Like all fiction written during times of universal insanity, these stories are not mad diaries. These "furious fictions" are intensely sane and personal, and they leave the reader with a sense of restored perspective and good humor. They appeal to readers who are interested in gender issues, women's studies, experimental fiction and cultural criticism. Selections from the book have been awarded a Gertrude Stein Award for Innovative Writing. A critically-commended video based on a chapter from the book, which features the author and her voice , is also available. "Susan Smith Nash's book Channel-Surfing the Apocalypse is very interesting. It is certainly a new approach to an area of writing. . . can I call it fiction(?). You cannot read this book without paying attention. . .it demands attention...demands a double-take. Susan Smith Nash deserves such attention. She has created an up-to-the-minute post-AIDS statement." --William S. Burroughs "Insistently parochial, the voice in this book is Oklahoma unalloyed. The apocalypse arrived early here, on television, and thi fertile, lyrical, creepy, ovidian book is its detonating antiphon. Remarkable." --Diane Middlebrook "Susan Smith Nash is a reporter commissioned by the muses, a kind of higher intensity poet-version of Christiane Amanpour, reporting live from all the intimate and mysterious combat zone that fill our world with terror." --Robert Kelly "The works of Susan smith Nash are fireworks, with much more than flash. They are bold, funny, and brilliant, illuminating corners of the literary landscape that have been dark for a long time." --Beth Joselow Pub. Date: May 2, 1996. ISBN: 1-880713-06-3. Price $11.95. 192 pages. Perfect Bound. Distributed to the trade by Baker & Taylor; Bookpeople and Small Press Distribution. For Direct orders: Avec Books, P.O. Box 1059, Penngrove, CA 94951 (please add $1.50 shipping). For additional information, contact Cyney Chadwick: chadwick@crl.com. Note to booksellers: a discount is available with prepayment. ------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 01:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: beckett Dear George Bowering--- tell me more about BECKETT, please! (cs) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:51:11 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: Re: Tasmania It's a little quieter now. The thing that's struck me (not a victim thing) more than the tragedy in Tasmania, was how attentions is made to function nowadays. The interesting question is what attracts our talking to each other. John Geraets ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 01:31:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: writing through Last week while at the Beckett conference I couldnt do number two. I sat there and sat there, saying "I can't go. I'll go." Only when I got home did I go out to compost the garden , squatted there for a while, and moved around, managing to spell out three longish words. Is that called writing through the body? "Toujours est-il que je redoute le signal de l'horrible petite trompette." -- Cocteau George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 01:31:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Creeley::Boulez?? > Creeley uses sound like Pierre Boulez. Try Ch. Parker. "Toujours est-il que je redoute le signal de l'horrible petite trompette." -- Cocteau George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:40:35 GMT0BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Larkin Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY Subject: (Fwd) Cambridge Conference of Contemporar Forwarded message: From: Self To: Poetics@ubvm>cc.buffalo.edu Subject: Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 09:38:42 Though I missed his reading, I can confirm cris's impression that Adrian Harding is someone to look out for. I picked up some of his work at the event, and (assuming it's the same person) I have been reading a fascinating essay by him on "Melancholy and Technology", a welcome break from too much cyberspace euphoria. As for cris's comments on confidence and performance, there does too often seem to be a general space of sag from which poets offer themselves. The performable aspect of any poem ought to make more of a difference to that predicament than it does. There may be more UK sag than US. Peter Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel:01203 524475 Fax: 01203 524211 Email: Lyaaz@Libris.Lib.Warwick.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 07:28:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: query re: the queering of Sapphics In-Reply-To: <199605070409.AAA09036@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> But did you ever try to look up that passage from "Sappho" that leads off _Dictee_; Nothing in this book should be taken at "face" value -- especially the faces in it -- ?? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:31:27 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Booglit Benefit Reading Featured Readers: Todd Colby David Baratier Bill Luoma Also Chris Stroffolino and Chris Butters are slated. Booglit will be publishing a number of limited edition chapbooks for the reading, including _Compartments (a short run)_ by David Baratier @ Luna Park Friday May 31st @ 7:30 pm 249 Fifth Ave. Brooklyn, NY (Between Carroll Street and Garfield Place) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:04:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: special sales from Sun & Moon Press Sun & Moon Press announces some very special sales for participants in the Poetry List: RIBOT 1, 2 and 3 (regularly $9.95 an issue, for $4.00 an issue) Ribot, edited by Paul Vangelisti, has become one of the most significant new poetry magazines. Issue 1 contains new work by Dennis Phillips, Nathaniel Tarn, Todd Baron, Martha Ronk, Norma Cole, Enzo Cucchi, Amelia Rosselli, Amiri Baraka, Adriano Spatola, Gottlieb Kasper, Douglas Messerli, and Luigi Ballerini $4.00 Issue 2 contains work by Sam Eisenstein, Mac Wellman, Amiri Baraka, Frank Chin, Ray DiPalma, Nick Piombino, Dennis Phillips, Robert Crosson, Adonis, Guy Bennett, Todd Baron, Michael Clinton, Jerry Rothenbergh, Diane Ward, Martha Ronk, Leland Hickman, Douglas Messerli, and George Herms $4.00 Issue 3 has new writing by Ameila Rosselli, Bruce Andrews, Ray DiPalma, Charles Bernstein, Felisberto Hernandez, Leslie Scalapino, Norma Cole, Dennis Phillips, Rodrigo Toscano, Will Alexander, Gottlieb Kasper, Nick Piombino, Cristina Peri Rossi, Sheila Murphy, Spencer Selby, Marshall Reese, Martha Ronk, Fernando Sorrentino, and many others. $4.00 Sun & Moon is also offering, for a special, limited time, FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CENTURY: A NEW AMERICAN POETRY 1960-1990 very slightly damaged copies (corners slightly bent) for only $5.00; the regular price is $29.95. All orders are the quoted price plus $1.00 shipping and handling. Please order from our website: http://www.sunmoon.com or through our E-mail page: djmess@sunmoon.com We will bill you. Thanks, Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 14:22:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Jordan Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Shaunanne--D'you mean her collection of political essays, *Technical Difficulties*? (Virago, 1993 in my edition). Maybe not. Then there's the essay that prefaces *Passion* (Beacon, 1980), called "For the Sake of a People's Poetry: Walt Whitman and the Rest of Us." Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 17:27:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Reading 5/17 NYC Ann Lauterbach Charles Bernstein Bruce Andrews will be reading at the ICHOR GALLERY 127 West 26th Street (Manhattan) Friday May 17 at 8:30pm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 18:17:31 GMT Reply-To: Samuel_R._Truitt@tunanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Samuel R. Truitt" Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: creeley quote A poem is never more than the gap between its form and its content. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:24:14 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Creeley::Boulez?? Try Miles Davis and soon it will be Mr Creeley's 70th birth- day. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 22:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: USOP Aldon, thanks for USOP commentary few days back. More expansive is what you seek, and I m certainly with you there, whether in the Olsonian or simply in more varied poetics. Mandate for USOP was a geographic, cultural AND aesthetic landscape exploration, not only for the series but each half-hour segment, and in that order. The themes of the shows also dictated, considerably, the pool of poems. Much of the more expansive poetry is not about anything. The final show ( The Word) allowed for some, with Carla H, Eigner, and Creeley. Tried hard for a Susan Howe piece... among others. Maureen Owen was to be in a sixth show, cut for funds (she s in the Abrams book.) Carter, far from being elder statesman of poetry, is in the series, to me, an Everypoet. Hey, if Jimmy can do it etc. I do like his poem, one of several in his _Always a Reckoning_ with an ironic fillip that pushes off his sentimentality. As for Barbara Kruger ( always nice to give Barbara Kruger even more credits than she already has ), her propaganda verbiage was art analogue for director Mark Pellington -- his videoizaton of her pieces, did it make them more/less poems ?, is a question. As for implication that this should have been more alternative -- poetry itself is so alternative, marginalized, that we needed all the name recognition we could find to get whatever attention we did get. As I ve mentioned, PBS itself refused to broadcast nationally, shying away from content, and only half the stations nationwide have aired the series so far. Kruger (and Jenny Holzer, from show 5 again), in a poetry show, are they now poets? where does TV end and art/design/poem begin? Or is video simply a means of transmission of the poem? It gave a luster, too, and they gave spirited collaborative energy, not to be discounted. Our original idea of having various directors, allowing the curent vidPo makers to participate was nixed by ITVS, our funder: they felt strongly that it would take a single director to pull the porject together. The McCann/Harris reference ( Try to make it Real/Compared to what ) is most applicable -- it was the theme song for the WNYC-TV series poetry Spots I produced for six seasons. I m with you for more expansive future editions. Write/call your PBS stations and ask for them to show/repeat USOP. Or just bug em for more po. Current plans at washington Square Films are to produce single poem videos with director/poet collaborating, then form shows later. The floor is open for backchannel nominations. FYI: Josh Blum, the other producer of USOP, and I will be on the Hot Seat at Steve Cannon s Tribes Gallery, 285 E. 3rd (C-D) in NYC on Sun, May 19, 5-7. A benefit for Steve s gathering of the Tribes mag, we ll show various segments and get assassinated by the audience. As Ashbery says, Purists will object. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 00:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: USOP Bob H.---I did see the first three USOP shows. I tended to like the second and third ones better than the first. Perhaps this is because I became used to the format by the second show, but also that there was more of the urban poetry of protest in the second and third segments and seemed to be less of the country stuff (Okay, I must acknowledge my subjective biases here). I kept thinking "wow, what is going on in the minds of the country folk when they hear these city folk" because the "value systems" are so different, but then I shouldn't be a city snob (especially considering I haven't lived in a city now for 4 years). Anyway, no point repeating the critiques of lack of variety others have made. I did watch it with two ex-students of mine and they dug it (though not as much as POETRY IN MOTION ) I wish there would have been more of LORD BUCKLEY. My students really liked Matt Cook. Leonard Cohen was a surprise, as was Thylias Moss (i would have expected less of a slammy type voice from her). John Wright's Bob_Newhart deadpan delivery was interesting. The money channel graphics were interesting. "tumbling like love through a rich man's fingers" "i'm stubborn as the garbage bags time cannot decay".... PINA's poem which said the opposite in english of what it said in spanish too. Jim Northrop's thing about the shrink commiting suicide... even Dennis Cooper---"SO BORED THEY BEG TO BE BEATEN" and the poem about the IT'S SO HOT TODAY, and the two poems about wanting to wake up at what tom waits would call "the crack of noon"....I didn't much care for the poet who wrote about stealing her sister's fattening food though..... Looking forward to parts 4 and 5. Chris S. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:27:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the sound of Creeley >George, when you wrote: >>In the court- >>yard at midnight, at >> >>midnight. The moon is >>locked in itself, to >> >>a man a >>familiar thing. >> >>, without singing it, singing it. > >I did a double take, having just this morning sent off a review of some Bill >Manhire books that quoted this poem as an example of Creeley's influence. Near >the beginning of the review I wrote this re Manhire's "singing": > >---------------- > >The iconography of song has always been important in Manhire's poetry, and it >is surprising that this has been little mentioned until recently. The titles of >both Sheet Music and My Sunshine, and the guitar on the cover of >the latter, make this connection explicit, and songs appear throughout My >Sunshine, particularly in its third section. > --etc >Tom Beard. That is amazing but not surprising, eh? Only time I met Bill Manhire was when my friend Tony Bellette took me to meet him for lunch somewhere upstairs in Wellington. Bill wasnt singing. He wasnt talking, either. It was explained to me that he often sits silently. I like his poetry fairly well, though, and was glad to meet him. At the time I was trying to get over hearing an hour of Sam Hunt performing his verses. "Toujours est-il que je redoute le signal de l'horrible petite trompette." -- Cocteau George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:26:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: threw the body two other perspectives on how and what we go through in writing and reading the body through poetry (or petry through the body)? tom ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 17:51:01 EDT From: Leo Goldberger To: Multiple recipients of list PSYART Another reply to John Knapp. May I point out that the word "constructivist" is, I think, being used in two ways? John is using it to summarize the position often heard in litry circles these days, that we are "constructed" by our culture. Leo Goldberger is pointing to its psychological usage, which he explains. --Best, Norm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- But are there, indeed, folks out there who assert or believe that the constructivist perspective is sufficient onto itself? There is, after all, the realm of "facticity" (including the biological as well as the geographical) which, at least, must serve as a starting point for any interpretive "construction". At issue is meaning making: what we as cultural creatures "make" out of a given set of facts, within a given set of contexts-- be the facts "temperament", "height", or an earthquaque. This discussion reminds me a bit of the old debate in academic psychology between the traditional "pure perception" theorists vs. the "new look" writers on perception. The latter researchers had discovered that needs and motives can influence even the most elementary aspects of perception, including size judgment, thus casting some doubt on the "veridical" "autochtonous" factors of the pure perceptionist. For example a hungry subject was more inclined to overestimate the size of a dime than a sated subject. Of courses the kicker in all of this was that the variation around the actual (factual) size as measured by a standardized ruler was quite limnited. There was a range of invariance, in other words, within which subjective, interpretive factors held sway (not large enough to really create problems with the notion of "reality contact". On Mon, 6 May 1996, knapp john v wrote: > John Knapp with a useful admonition--we psac types should be considering > genetic studies among other psychologies relative to our shenanigans. > --Best, Norm > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > For some of you who may be interested in psychologies other than > Psychoanalytic, you may wish to read another book that discusses > identities and the concepts of self indirectly by looking at genetics and > temperament from the point of view of experimental psychology. The book > is Jerome Kagan's *Galen's Prophecy* (New York: Basicbooks, 1994), a > summary of his investigations over the last decade or so. Much of what he > discusses makes clear to any open-minded reader that constructivist > coecepts of the self, like so many other fads in humanistic study, is > merely one way and only one way of looking at such complicated creatures > as ourselves. Like it or not, some of us are born with temperamental > qualities that are not "constructed" but innate. Their expression may be > varied somewhat by the environment (society), but only to a point. > Commonsensically, those of us who inherit the genes to help make us 5' 9" > as adults are probably NOT going to become NBA stars who average, say, 6' > 6''no matter how much we want to blame the problem on "social construction." > > I strongly recommend looking at the work of Kagan and his associates. It > could be useful for psycho-analytic oriented literary critics to begin > looking more closely at human genetics and work in experimental psychology > as readily and as easily as they do "constructivism." > > Cheers, > > JVK > > > ******************************* > John V. Knapp * > 330 Reavis Hall, Dept. of * > English; * > Northern Illinois University, * > Dekalb 60115 * > (815) 753-6632 * > tb0jvk1@corn.cso.niu.edu * > ******************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 00:55:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: query re: the queering of Sapphics Aldon Nielsen asked re: Sappho quotation at beginning of Theresa Hak Kyung Cha's DICTEE: >But did you ever try to look up that passage from "Sappho" >that leads off >_Dictee_; Nothing in this book should be taken at "face" value ALDON, read what I said in the very next sentence of my message!! that "On the other hand ... the Sappho quotation is faked". Back in 1991, I spent days trying to track down a Sappho fragment that might even begin to resemble the "quotation" and couldn't find anything. Maybe someone out there with good classical training will have better luck...please inform us when you do. The lines in the DICTEE epigraph are: "May I write words more naked than flesh, stronger than bone, more resilient than sinew, sensitive than nerve." NOTE: Prof. Shelley Sunn Wong in her essay on DICTEE thanks a Cornell U. sophomore for informing her that the Sappho epigraph is apocryphal. That student had been in the Asian American literature course I taught as a visiting lecturer at Cornell the year before, didn't know Sappho from Harpo, and got the information from one of my lectures. Maybe it was just a statement made to Shelley with no intention of brown-nosing appropriation, but MAYBE it is related to the fact that when I returned to campus the next year for a visit she didn't return my greeting when I saw her by coincidence as she passed me on a stairway. "Oh," I added earnestly and in haste (there was quite a crowd of students going by), "I began to write a letter back [to the friendly letter she'd sent me during summer vacation], but I never got around to finishing and sending it off!" "Yeah, SURE!" she crackled and just went down to the next floor. Jeez, I really had meant to finish it... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 01:51:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: special sales from Sun & Moon Press I'll take a 'damaged' copy of _Other Side_ for $5.00, along with issues 2 & 3 or Ribot for $4.00 each. Thanx! Ship & bill to: Charles Smith 2135 Irvin Way Sacramento, CA 95822 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 07:59:04 +0000 Reply-To: William.Northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: William Northcutt Subject: George Bowering's Garden Graffffffittttii George B. rules!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 00:34:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mikl-em Subject: a sighter lide of a terious sopic there is a poetic in the prosaic but it is not here... >From daemon Mon May 6 05:36:33 1996 X-Delivery-Notice: SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender. X-Sender: erben@satie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:26:02 -0400 Reply-To: A discussion of Jacques Derrida and Deconstruction Sender: A discussion of Jacques Derrida and Deconstruction From: "David Erben (Art)" Subject: Contest winners (fwd) To: Multiple recipients of list DERRIDA From: Denis Dutton To: philosop@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca Subject: Contest winners The PHIL-LIT/_Philosophy and Literature_ Bad Writing Contest: Results for round two. The entries for the second run of the Bad Writing Contest have now been tabulated, and we are pleased to announce winners. But first a few tedious words. There is no question that we have better--if that's how to put it--entries than the last time we ran the contest. Some of the entries are stunning, and we think almost all of them deserve a prize of some sort. This is not to say that much of the writing we would consider "bad" is necessarily incompetent. Graduate students and young scholars please note: many of the writers represented have worked years to attain their styles and they have been rewarded with publication in books and journal articles. In fact, if they weren't published, we wouldn't have them for our contest. That these passages constitute bad writing is merely our opinion; it is arguable that for anyone wanting to pursue an academic career should assiduously imitate such styles as are represented here. These are you role models. First prize goes to David Spurrett of the University of Natal in South Africa. He found this marvelous sentence--yes, it's but one sentence--from Roy Bhaskar's _Plato etc: The Problems of Philosophy and Their Resolution_ (Verso, 1994): "Indeed dialectical critical realism may be seen under the aspect of Foucauldian strategic reversal--of the unholy trinity of Parmenidean/Platonic/Aristotelean provenance; of the Cartesian-Lockean-Humean-Kantian paradigm, of foundationalisms (in practice, fideistic foundationalisms) and irrationalisms (in practice, capricious exercises of the will-to-power or some other ideologically and/or psycho-somatically buried source) new and old alike; of the primordial failing of western philosophy, ontological monovalence, and its close ally, the epistemic fallacy with its ontic dual; of the analytic problematic laid down by Plato, which Hegel served only to replicate in his actualist monovalent analytic reinstatement in transfigurative reconciling dialectical connection, while in his hubristic claims for absolute idealism he inaugurated the Comtean, Kierkegaardian and Nietzschean eclipses of reason, replicating the fundaments of positivism through its transmutation route to the superidealism of a Baudrillard." It's a splendid bit of prose and I'm certain many of us will now attempt to read it aloud without taking a breath. The jacket blurb, incidentally, informs us that this is the author's "most accessible book to date." Second Prize is won by Jennifer Harris of the University of Toronto. She found a grand sentence in an essay by Stephen T. Tyman called "Ricoeur and the Problem of Evil," in _The Philosophy of Paul Ricoeur_, edited, it says, by Lewis Edwin Hahn (Open Court, 1995): "With the last gasp of Romanticism, the quelling of its florid uprising against the vapid formalism of one strain of the Enlightenment, the dimming of its yearning for the imagined grandeur of the archaic, and the dashing of its too sanguine hopes for a revitalized, fulfilled humanity, the horror of its more lasting, more Gothic legacy has settled in, distributed and diffused enough, to be sure, that lugubriousness is recognizable only as languor, or as a certain sardonic laconicism disguising itself in a new sanctification of the destructive instincts, a new genius for displacing cultural reifications in the interminable shell game of the analysis of the human psyche, where nothing remains sacred." Speaking of shell games, see if you can figure out the subject of that sentence. Third prize was such a problem that we decided to award more than one. Exactly what the prizes will be is uncertain (the first three prizes were to be books), but something nice will be found. (Perhaps: third prize, an old copy of _Glyph_; fourth prize two old copies of _Glyph_.) Jack Kolb of UCLA found this sentence in Paul Fry's _A Defense of Poetry_ (Stanford University Press, 1995). Together with the previous winners, it proves that 1995 was to bad prose what 1685 was to good music. Fry writes, "It is the moment of non-construction, disclosing the absentation of actuality from the concept in part through its invitation to emphasize, in reading, the helplessness--rather than the will to power--of its fall into conceptuality." Incidentally, Kolb is reviewing Fry's book for _Philosophy and Literature_, and believe it or not he generally respects it. Arthur J. Weitzman of Northeastern University has noted for us two helpful sentences from _The Johns Hopkins Guide to Literary Theory and Criticism_, edited by Michael Groden and Martin Kreiswirth (JHUP, 1994). It is from Donald E. Pease's entry on Harold Bloom: "Previous exercises in influence study depended upon a topographical model of reallocatable poetic images, distributed more or less equally within 'canonical' poems, each part of which expressively totalized the entelechy of the entire tradition. But Bloom now understood this cognitive map of interchangeable organic wholes to be criticism's repression of poetry's will to overcome time's anteriority." What can we add to that? William Dolphin of San Francisco State University located for us this elegant sentence in John Guillory's _Cultural Capital: The Problem of Literary Canon Formation_ (University of Chicago Press, 1993): "A politics presuming the ontological indifference of all minority social identities as defining oppressed or dominated groups, a politics in which differences are sublimated in the constitution of a minority identity (the identity politics which is increasingly being questioned within feminism itself) can recover the differences between social identities only on the basis of common and therefore commensurable experiences of marginalization, which experiences in turn yield a political practice that consists largely of _affirming_ the identities specific to those experiences." And speaking of marginalization, where, you may ask, are women in this? Aren't we being exclusionary? Indeed, it's frankly unfair that men should have all the fun, but the gallant Canadian David Savory found this lucid sentence in the essay "Tonya's Bad Boot," in _Women on Ice_, edited by Cynthia Baughman: "This melodrama parsed the transgressive hybridity of un-narrativized representative bodies back into recognizable heterovisual codes." Thanks to these and all the other entrants. If you didn't this time, the next round of the Bad Writing Contest, prizes to be announced, is now open with a deadline of September 30, 1996. So you've plenty of time to find examples from the turgid new world of academic prose. Details of the new contest will appear on PHIL-LIT. Winners of this contest, watch for your prizes in the mail. Thanks to all. Denis Dutton Editor _Philosophy and Literature_ d.dutton@fina.canterbury.ac.nz David G. Myers Moderator PHIL-LIT dgmyers@tamvm1.tamu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 08:03:27 EDT Reply-To: Samuel_R._Truitt@tunanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: Resent-From: Henry Gould Comments: Originally-From: "Samuel R. Truitt" From: Henry Gould Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: creeley quote I wonder if anything has been done relating philosopher CS Peirce & poetry. There's the semiotics, but I don't think Peirce himself wrote much about aesthetics per se. I think his trichotomy theory - "First, Second & Thirdness" - was meant in part to be an advance and revision on the "form/matter" distinctions of scholasticism, of which these mantras in US poetics about form/content are like an echo. It would be interesting to see an application of the trichotomy (feeling, actuality and law is a rough reduction) to poetry. Also, maybe a dose of Peirce's medieval/scientific realism (very roughly, "universals and general ideas are REAL and affect life from the FUTURE although they don't have ACTUALITY yet they can be experimentally TESTED and be PREDICTIVE") might throw a wrench in the pervasive (what he might call) "nominalism" of the age (i.e. reality is a phantom of human naming-systems predicated on the non-identity of the self and technologies of power & desire). A consequence of Peirce's scientific approach is that what-we-don't-know and what-we-don't- name is nevertheless REAL - there is a real un-named out-there which corresponds, in a way, to silence. Silence frames things and makes it possible to talk about actualities (i.e. for example poems as entities, gestalts, something to be considered in-itself). Sounds kinda new critical doesn't it? Better put on my boxer shorts & get ready for body language... - Henry Gould ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A poem is never more than the gap between its form and its content. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:33:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Jordan I think the book in question is in print from Routledge Press, with a title something like _June Jordan's Poetry for the People_. My understanding is she's more the subject of the book than the author or editor.--Jorahem ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:32:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tod Thilleman Subject: Re: scanning sag Peter; re performance and the state of sag poets seem to bring to it, if I understand you correctly, it is something, to me, akin to, say, actually reading Prometheus Unbound by Shelley and not just scanning it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: sappho and cha at cornell hi walter, couldn't help but be amused by your anecdote abt seeing a sophomore thanked for your idea in a colleague's paper. as a prof i've often observed, and had the experience myself as a student back when, that students don't realize that what they're learning is someone's intellectual property that's being shared. they think they're learning facts that are common knowledge once they've learned them. i've had students who've complained of not learning anything in my class quote my lectures word for word in their own papers, unattributed of course, because they don't remember/realize that these were my ideas and sentences --to them, these insights are part of their intellectual environment and free for the taking and reproducing. it's curious. sometimes, also, i want students to credit each other in their papers, when they use th einsights from someone else's class presentation, for example, only to be faced with their objection that this "was not (that other student's) idea; this is something that emerged in class discussion" and hence common property. in general, that's just the way it is, i guess. in college i used to think that the relationship between language and desire was my pet thing; i was piqued to find out kristeva had written a whole book about it! of course, i was imbibing the critical concerns of my era, my teachers, etc, who were reading kristeva! interesting, isnt it, the concept of intellectual property and proper credit. interesting and a bit embarrassing, to be forced to be so proprietary about thoughts, which we also know are shared and communally constructed/generated. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:56:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Mandatory anouncement As required by the welcome message of this here e-mail discussion list & general custom, I must let you know that the book and CD-ROM version of Microsoft's Internet Directory 96 is now out. I worked on about 5% of it ( a little less than 200 reviews out of about 4,000). Some of these are obvious (most of the music section), some are not (consumer information & agriculture/gardening). All the reviews (not just mine) reflect problems of writing too quickly & corporate copy editing, so don't go looking for too much intentional poetry here. Still, in the cursory glance I've given it (I haven't received my copy yet, 'cause the Mac CD-ROM version isn't ready yet) it seems as if it's at least as good as most of the other print directories I've seen. I mean, the URLs seem to have been proofread & some of them are interesting. There'll be a web site with updates & new listings. When stuff gets up there (& the search engine works) I'll post the URL. For the updates I'm doing a wider range of topics, most arts, though NOT literature, so if you have web sites they'd like to suggest I'd love to see them. I can't guarantee (despite the obvious idiosyncracies of the music section, a special case that I won't go into here) that they'll get into the next book, but I'd love any suggestions you have on visual and/or performing arts websites, e-mail lists, newsgroups, etc. Back channel is probably best for these suggestions. Unlike most such messages to the list, I offer no cheap deals on the book. I'm not sure I'd even recommend it to most of you. It is part of the Microsoft Bookshelf 96-97 package, though, so if you or your office/institution buy that, you'll have it anyway. Hoo-hah. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:15:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Mandatory addendum Oh, yeah. As I said, I didn't write the literary sections of the Microsoft Internet guide. So don't blame me for the reviews of EPC or POETICS-LIST in the Microsoft book, which includes and then tells how to sign up to receive Rif/t as if this'll get you onto POETICS. (Hasn't this happened before a few times?) I'll send a message to the editor (& the reviewer) that the list is closed & shouldn't be reviewed anyway & that what is in the book is incorrect. Though, judging from what just came over the net from Mr Sherwood re: E-POETRY-L, maybe I shouldn't bother. Besides, anyone digging around the POETICS-L archive at EPC (besides seeing all of our deathless prose, stupid jokes, & rare poetry) could find out how to subscribe easily enough. - H Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 16:06:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: this is just to say In-Reply-To: thank you to all who gave me directions Re:blocking pomes. since the sun refuses to shine here i haven't minded mining the library at school rather than goofing off like any good student does for the summer. Walter Lew pointed out Fred Wah after i threw fish and words into the same kettle. WOW. he is my new favorite orange. i'm embarrassed that i had never read him before. not only am i stuck between the culture of my parent's and our new country but i also grew up in saskatchewan. the most challenging and fun anthology of concrete poetry i have come across so far is 'the cosmic chef' edited by bpNichol (Oberon Press,1970).nice to know that some of those cats are active on this list. before i go and fix the hole where the air gets out of the back tire of my a-to-b cycle, i'd like to leave you with what got me to thinkin' bout page as canvas and stuff. TRUDGE THEM ALWAYS IS A REPULSIVE A MEAN DELICATE VISION OF BLACK SWEET DEATH PINK GARDEN cheers, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 16:02:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: solicitation I'm looking for work for a magazine I'm starting up. It's called MASS AVE. The first issue will be editorially grounded in "the city." Take that any way you choose. Send poems, reviews, poems, critiques, poems, short essays, poems, correspondence, poems, artwork, poems, rejected doctoral theses, poems, impressionistic prose of your particular city, neighborhood, street and or zip code, poems, manifestoes, poems, big checks made out to me, and poems. Send all these things and a spirit of camaraderie to: MASS AVE Daniel Bouchard 210 Winthrop Road #6 Brookline, MA 02146 Give this memo to anyone who may be interested. Enclose SASE if you want your work back. Contributors will be paid in copies. E-mail submissions acceptable but not preferred. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:35:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Mackey Interview There's a splendid interview of Nathaniel Mackey made available to us online through the generosity of Chris Funkhouser. It's really terrific and is available at the Electronic Poetry Center at Funkhouser's or Mackey's author home page. This moment, it is also the EPC "Feature" selection. Click on the "Feature" image on the NEW EPC entrance way and you'll go right to the interview. Also at the EPC entrance, "Hotlist" contains some recent new additions, including the great Witz 3.2 with Mark Wallace's essay "The Lyric as Experimental Possibility". Get it while it's good at the EPC: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 18:30:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Gary Kirschenbaum Subject: NEW: electronic thesis/diss site Not poetics, not strictly, but I hope this will be of interest to some here. Apologies if not. Thanks, --Matt > This is to announce a new web site I have developed for on-line > references and resources related to electronic masters theses > and doctoral dissertations (ETDs) in the humanities, including a > directory of such work currently in progress: > > http://osi.lib.virginia.edu/ediss/ediss.html > > If you are a graduate student now at work on an ETD, please > stop by and fill out a short form describing your project > (available off of the "currently in progress" page). The > information you provide will be added to the site's on-line ETD > directory, which I hope will serve as a resource for other > graduate students who are in the process of seeking approval > for such work. > > I'd also like to hear from anyone who might have other > suggestions as to the content or potential uses of this site. I > envision it as a sort of clearing-house for ETD materials, > including pointers to on-line initiatives and guidelines, > publications, services, archived mailing-list discussions, and > other relevant humanities computing materials. Some of the > pages are stretched a bit thin, as ETDs have not attracted as > much attention as other forms of scholarly electronic > publishing; if you know of any ETD resources that I have not > included, please tell me about them; also, please check back from > time to time as the site expands. > > Potential audiences include not only graduate students but also > faculty who want to make informed decisions about supervising > an ETD, as well as librarians, administrators, and publishers. > I have tentative plans to innaugerate a mailing list devoted to > this topic as well. > > Please forward this announcement as seems appropriate, and > please excuse cross-postings. > > Special thanks to the University of Virginia Library's On-Line > Scholarship Initiative and Special Collections Deptartment for > providing server space. Comments should be sent to me at the > address below. > > ================================================================= > Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia > mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English > http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 06:46:35 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: sappho and cha at cornell In-Reply-To: <960508125106_486832730@emout19.mail.aol.com> maria, I was interested in your observation that students tend to consider what they are taught as common property, generally accepted facts, rather than an individual professor's intellectual property. when I was a student I very definitely thought that what my professors were telling me was their own opinion, not necessarily fact and certainly not what another professor of the same subject would tell me. In fact, I remember the moment (in a graduate seminar, so it took quite a while for me to reach this point) when I realized that what they guy was saying was probably not just his opinion, but the way it really was, or rather the way that anyone who knew anything about the subject agreed that it was. whether this attitude was personal (those who know me personally can say) or more characteristic of the early 70s, I know I was very resistant to the idea that my teachers, simply by virtue of being teachers, had any privileged access to truth. if I was impressed by them, as individuals, I tended to take what they said more seriously. this attitude probably limited somewhat the benefit I could have derived from my extensive education, and is no doubt one reason I eventually did leave academics. however, since I did later later come to think of it as an adolescent attitude, I am surprised to hear that it is not close to universal among college students. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:19:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: New EPC Home Page I wanted also to elaborate on the *New* EPC home page. As presently constituted, it contains five images, three large and two small. The three large images, if clicked, lead to "Hotlist" (recently added and recommended slots in the EPC), "Feature" (a direct connection to a truly hot new EPC resource), the EPC banner (leads to our full home page), a tiny box which reads "Net" (leads to a recommended outside link - at present to the remarkable Net space of the Swedish performance poetry group, Skin to Skin "...Skin to Skin work with the new underground expressions which are growing stronger throughout Europe - a mixture of tribal rites, science fiction, performance and 'no borders' multimedia...raw, simple and uncensored... ...this is good: tight, concentrated, merciless shock at a hard pulsing tempo... _Arbetet_"), and a Linebreak logo, for some truly incredible poetry performances/interviews housed at the EPC. "Feature" and "Net" will be changed often, offering you some quality stuff. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:34:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: beckett > Dear George Bowering--- > tell me more about BECKETT, please! (cs) The festival was hosted by the University of Victoria Theatre Dept., which is one of the best theatre departments in the country, so the papers that were delivered were all about the plays, often about the production of them. There was one paper on _Malloy_, but I missed it because i was at another session of three papers on Billie Whitelaw, and I love Billie Whitelaw. I cant remember any of the papers I was thrilled by. Apparently the Fred Neumann address given the night before the festival got really going was really good. In fact, there was an earthquake (5.3 on the Richter, epicentre in Sedro Wooley, Wash.) in the middle of it. Contorski's keynote address (one hr.) was friendly and engaging and scholarly, and he had a Sam Beckett haircut and trousers too short, a weird homage. There were a lot of Beckett scholars there from Florida, others from the souteast, as well as places like Kansas and Montreal and South Dakota. But the productions (good lord, so many of them) were a lot more interesting. There were a few clunkers, but mostly pretty good stuff, and sometimes 2 productions of the same play. I was disappointed that no one did _Ohio Impromptu_. There was a company that offered it, but they didnt make the final cut as far as the selection people went. So. Every morning there was a room in which the radio plays were broadcast, and a room in which the videos were shown. After waiting all these years I finally saw "Film" and it is still wonderful. It provided one of the instances in which you notice emblems passing from item to item. For instance, Buster Keaton's handkerchief under his trademark porkpie hat shoes up again on Willie in _Happy Days_ as handkerchief under straw boater. The first plays on stage (there were two theatres, the regular stage and the proscenium stage) were done by the Goetheanum-Buhne Players of Switzerland, the people from the Rudolf Steiner institute. They did _Not I_ in German, which is interesting, as Mouth sounds more forceful, less frantic in that language. Their "Footfalls" looked beautiful, the woman in real Beckett rags with her one arm out in front of her, palm up. Their "Catastrophe" was excellent, buit it is not a hard play to do, except for the victim's posture. They did "Play" and did it well, though as you can imagine, the speed kept you from picking up the fast talk with a slight German accent. The person doing the light was actually almost a character. You could see her operating. That night the troupe from SUNY New Paltz did "Quad I and II", really fast, with beautiful shiny cloaks and cowls, in red and white and blue and gold, except at the end, when they were all white. Fast and with good music. I loved it, having sat back in the last row. Then in the proscenium theatre the Pantechnicon Theatre from Pomona did "Footfalls". This was pretty bad, with a too-young woman doing it, her steps noty always 9 paces, etc. And she was wearing her wedding ring! Then their guy did "Piece of Monologue" pretty well. Then their older woman did "Not I"--her speech was perfectly clear and theatrically adept, but she chose to do it slowly, which might be pleasant but isnt Beckett. Next afternoon. Fred Neumann did his adaptation of "Worstward Ho." He is in a grave with a skeleton and all; now Beckett gave him this, and no one else has the nerve to do it. It was terrific. for me the highlight of the festival, though I was knocked out by the new Palts "Quad." Then pone had to make a choice between "Catastrophe" done by the University of british Columbia players plus "Krapp's Last Tape" done by University of Victoria---or Happy Days done by Colorado State Univ. I went to the latter because I hadnt seen it for so long. It was pretty good, cant remember the actors' names. Then an hour later I saw "Krapp's Last Tape" played by a woman who represented Dickinson College and the Jean Cocteau Rep. from NY. She is the daughter of the guy who did it an hour earlier. She played it as a man, whole script, etc., but the voice on tape was a woman's. Interesting genderbending. Sam wouldnt have approved. Semiotically puzzling, but let us say, effective. I wasnt pissed off purist Beckettian. I dug it. And now my body and brain were calling out for endless beckett. So two hours for dinner, and then we saw university of Victoria do "Act Without Words II" pretty well, and then the Pantechnicon people again. Now thwir guy does a stage adaptation of "Company," an 80-minute monolgue (some on tape), and it was a bravura perfgormance, very touching. Then the woman did "Rockabye", and that was pretty good too. This company works with a modular adjustable set that they bring on a truck on tour, all hinges and stuff. It works. Next day, Sunday. The famous Neptune Theatre from Halifax, and their young comedy troupe called Jest in Time, do a set on the reg. stage. They are, I think, all gay, three women and one man. They do "Play" creditably, nice and fast. Makeup isnt as interesting as the Swiss one. They do "Come and Go." They do "Rough for Theatre I" cross-dressed, and funny. They do "Quad", a short pre-German one, in brown and with thinner music and with three short people and one tall; it just didnt look or sound anywhere as good as the SUNY one. They do a well-timed "What Where" and I at last understand the mathematics and geometrics, having only "read" it. They they do "Nacht und Traume," which I have never seen, and it is a hurt, so beautiful; so close to Beckettian sentimentality, so well lit, a real theatre moment. Words fail me. I head for the bathroom. I cant go on. I went on. To the other theatre, where the festival was ended with a production of "Breath", also done by the Jean Cocteau Rep. People fell out. Folks applauded a stage with no one on it. On the way home to Vancouver I contemplated jumping off the ferry. But I fell asleep, right beside the kids' play room. You should have been there. You wdnt haVE HAD TO GET by with my subjective words. Federman shd have been there. .......................... "Toujours est-il que je redoute le signal de l'horrible petite trompette." -- Cocteau George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 01:10:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Billy Whitelaw! Dear George Bowering, What a summary! I am crazy about Billy Whitelaw, too. Saw her most recently in a TV broadcast of _Charlie Bubbles_ (Liza Minelli's cinematic debut--Who played the writer? Do you know?) I am not that familiar w Whitelaw's career, however, can you point me to more information? Is there a British book about her? What did the papers about her work discuss? What is she doing now? Is there a Whitelaw fanzine? I'm sure you're beginning to regret mentioning you went to the conference--just telegraph your observations. Much appreciated, Walter K. Lew 8 Old Colony Rd. Old Saybrook, CT 06475 (860) 388-4601 (ph/fax) WKL888@AOL.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 23:31:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Billy Whitelaw! >Dear George Bowering, > What a summary! I am crazy about Billy Whitelaw, too. Saw her most >recently in a TV broadcast of _Charlie Bubbles_ (Liza Minelli's cinematic >debut--Who played the writer? Do you know?) I am not that familiar w >Whitelaw's career, however, can you point me to more information? Is there a >British book about her? What did the papers about her work discuss? What is >she doing now? Is there a Whitelaw fanzine? I'm sure you're beginning to >regret mentioning you went to the conference--just telegraph your >observations. Much appreciated, > > >Walter K. Lew >8 Old Colony Rd. >Old Saybrook, CT 06475 >(860) 388-4601 (ph/fax) >WKL888@AOL.com Well, the papers on Whitelaw were pretty well noncritical, ranging from gossipy to comparative. But you are in luck. In 1995 her autobiography was published. It is called _Billie Whitelaw" Who He?_ She shows up in movies from time to time, usually things that are deemed not international enough to be seen over here. But there is a kind of filmography in the autobiography. I'll give you the addresses of the three people who did papers: Dr. Stephen Dilks, University of North Dakota (I think). He is an Englishman. Dr. Malcolm Page, English Dept., Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., V5A 1S6, Canada. (He writes a lot about modern English drama, but not very critically) Dr. Eric Prince. He is a director but I dont know his Univ. affiliation. He was listed as from Scarborough, England. .......................... "Toujours est-il que je redoute le signal de l'horrible petite trompette." -- Cocteau George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 23:44:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Carl Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 6 May 1996 to 7 May 1996 I know (from lurking) that people on the list are generally (understandably) hesitant to play the "define a movement" game, but I heard someone recently define language poetry as "that school of poetics which most consciously and critically engages language as ideology." While this struck me as somewhat reductive, I had a hard time formulating a response to highlight the short-comings of the definition, and thought I might throw it out here for people to bat around. dgcarl@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 05:46:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 6 May 1996 to 7 May 1996 Dear david carll-- well, one response to that reductive definition (is there any other kind of definition?) might be that it essentializes language..... but then this opens up the whole "use value" question I think Larry Price, Tenney Nathanson and Pat Philips bounced back and forth around november '95 on this list.......cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 05:50:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: beckett Dear george Bowering, thanks for "nothing"---cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:12:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: sappho and cha at cornell schuchat: times have changed. or maybe this is a minnesota thing again. the thing that makes me terrifically uncomfortable about teaching is precisely being regarded as an "authority." being a 70s person myself, i like the idea of sitting around talking w/ students. but most of my students now (mostly u-grads, i admit) seem to want to be told things. if they come away with a lot of notes, they think the teacher "knows his/her stuff." a former student, now a friend, who teaches at a private college in mn, and who also believes in discussion-oriented classes, says she's gotten anonymous hate mail from students saying stuff like, "we pay you to teach, so teach." also at my institution there is a terrible gender problem as well; a female professor will be resented for being an authority; a male deferred to --his authority is seen as normative i.e. invisible. but it is extremely stressful for me to be in a "leadership" role in any official capacity, in front of people for whom i am to some extent responsible. i feel much more comfortable among peers, or as a student myself. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:32:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: bobbobbobbob In-Reply-To: <199605080409.AAA11836@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> If you believe that more "expansive" poetry is not about anything (and later you can tell me why you believe that), then why do you agree with me that future editions should be more expansive? Are you adopting a poetics of anti-aboutness?? Did ya by any chance see that John Barth essay of some years ago titled "About Aboutness"? Just how does something made out of language go about not be about anything???? (which, as in painting, I would expect is considerably a different matter from being non-representational) ["go about not be]?? my keboard writes poems to me -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:49:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Sappho and Man at Yale In-Reply-To: <199605090407.AAA11016@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Walter -- The second line was what I wondered about -- that is, I was wondering if anybody else had tried to find the Sappho, because I'm not sure how we know it's "faked" -- Any classics people out there who can tell us fer sure??? I've been taking your former student's word, which I now learn is your word, for this, and see no reason not to continue, but it sure wd. be reassuring if there were absolute evidence that Cha wrote it herself, or that it is not an "adaptation" of some sort -- As the poet said, "I have not the Greek," so all I've done is thumb thru translations -- not the best way to achieve certainty on such a count -- but I always was no account -- Down in New Orleans we always await the second line -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 08:13:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: sappho and cha at cornell A few thoughts in response to Maria's comments about students' expectations: Many students and professionals pursuing professional growth seems wrapped and rapt by the information-as-commodity syndrome. This pattern seems to provide its own natural tiers of progression, and to offer a sense that one is "getting somewhere" and, in addition, "gaining something." Regardless of the truth of this pantomime, I look upon it both gently and wryly, I guess. Sometimes it's frustrating to see rat-in-maze behaviors when this behavior seems in conflict with engagement. The way that I've bridged these two is by creating VERY structured exercises that provide for the drawing out of analytical and/or integrative thought. While group process used to be mysterious to me, it's now second nature. And I love it. But STRUCTURE has been the point of rescue on all of this. Sometimes I have difficulty believing the fervor with which I see people taking notes when I offer some linear list. It's like a feeding frenzy. But my sympathies remain in place, as I know how they participants have been programmed. Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:26:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 6 May 1996 to 7 May 1996 >I know (from lurking) that people on the list are generally (understandably) >hesitant to play the "define a movement" game, but I heard someone recently >define language poetry as "that school of poetics which most consciously and >critically engages language as ideology." While this struck me as somewhat >reductive, I had a hard time formulating a response to highlight the >short-comings of the definition, and thought I might throw it out here for >people to bat around. We've had declarations that poetics is not primarily concerned with poetry, and now we have a practice in poetry defined as a school of poetics. This is what troubles me about this definition, even though I am not one to divorce poetry from poetics, nor am I one to inextricably link the two. But in specifically describing a poetry practice as a school which critically engages language as ideology, this definition seems to make secondary elements which I find most attractive about language poetry, which is the foregrounding of poetry as language at play. Any definition of language poetry which can succeed in including the playful use (& I would argue that play is absolutely useful; I would also argue that it is ideological, but not that ideology is the primary intent) of language in Gertrude Stein, bpNichol, and Charles Bernstein, would gain my confidence. While one can choose to look at all three of these in terms of critically & consciously engaging language as ideology, I don't think this is by any means the only lens one needs to illuminate primary aspects of the work. And I choose these three writers only because of their diversity and their rather obvious joy in creating language works. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 06:55:00 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: THE MASSACRE HAS STARTED....IN BACHAJON,CHIAPAS. (fwd) Further news from Chiapas. Yuk. Gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- We enclose an alert we just received from ASSOCIATED MINISTRIES OF TACOMA,WASHINGTON. Their note requests that we distribute this information as soon as possible due to the extreme danger of escalation. Associated Ministries informs us that the lines on Peacenet are down at this time, we do not know if this is due to scheduled maintenance or some other reason. We add our deep concern and encourage you to distribute this as widely as possible and send those faxes immediately. Thank you, The Editors of AMANECER PRESS ----- May 5,1996 CHURCHES UNITED a project of ASSOCIATED MINISTRIES OF TACOMA-PIERCE 1224 South I Street Tacoma, Washington 98405 USA Tel:(206)383-3056 FAx:(206)383-2672 e-mail: assmin@igc.apc.org THE MASSACRE HAS STARTED....IN BACHAJON,CHIAPAS. With these words, a few moments ago, we received information that an armed confrontation is taking place at this time in Bachajon, Chiapas, between the paramilitary group locally known as "The Chinchulines" and formally known as "Youth Group" with ties to the PRI, and indigenous from the Ejido San Jeronimo. This paramilitary group assaulted about 300 indigenous men and women last night, as they made their way home after a communal assembly in San Jeronimo where the paramilitary group lost communal elections. This paramilitary group took over the municipality of Chilon (a few miles from Bachajon) about 14 days ago and has kept the civilians and human rights workers under constant verbal abuse and threats of violence. Neither the State nor Federal authorities have intervened in stopping the violent actions of this paramilitary group. At the present time, we have the confirmation of at least one person dead and many injured. Heavily armed men have been seen traveling by pick up truck from Chilon to Bachajon. There is an unconfirmed report that the Church in Bachajon belonging to the Jesuit Mission has been set on fire, we are presently trying to confirm this but are unable to reach anyone to do so. This is but one more sign of the decomposition of the system and the growing activity of the paramilitary groups in Chiapas. If this local conflict does not have a quick political solution it can place the Peace Dialogue in jeopardy. This would mean a new threat of a violent confrontation at a larger scale. On the other hand, the Mexican Press reports today that a vehicle belonging to MIlitary Intelligence and the Public Security, has been following Bishop Ruiz all week very closely and remains outside his residence. We ask ourselves what are really the intentions of the Mexican government? We encourage you to send faxes to President Zedillo asking him to intervene BRINGING ABOUT A POLITICAL SOLUTION THAT FAVORS THE CONTINUITY OF THE PEACE TALKS. >From USA: 011-52-5-271-1764 from Mexico:(915)271-1764 We suggest copies to: CONAI from USA:011-52-967-83136 and CEDIAC 011-52-967-102-07 and in the US you may send them to us at:(206)383-2672 Thank you, THE COORDINATION OF CHURCHES UNITED OF ASSOCIATED MINISTRIES ** End of text from cdp:reg.mexico ** [The above article was distributed by the ANTIFA INFO-BULLETIN, as Supplement 39, May 7, 1996] * * * * * Bay Area Coalition for Our Reproductive Rights (BACORR) 750 La Playa # 730 San Francisco, California 94121 Voice: (415) 437-4032 E-Mail: On PeaceNet visit BACORR's conference. For subscription information e-mail Wendi Jones, BACORR text files can also be found on the following sites: Arm The Spirit WWW:gopher://locust.cic.net:70/11/politics/Arm.The.Spirit/BACORR FTP: ftp.etext.org --> /pub/politics/Arm.The.Spirit/BACORR FTP: ftp.etext.org --> /pub/politics/Arm.The.Spirit/Antifa/Antifa.Info-Bulletin Institute For Alternative Journalism (AlterNet) http://www.alternet.org/an/demworks/html gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:70/00/orgs/alternet ***************************************************************** BACORR: DEFENDING CLINICS, EXPOSING TERRORISM -- BECAUSE NO ONE'S GONNA DO IT FOR US! ***************************************************************** ++++ stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++ ++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++ ++++ see: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:27:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 6 May 1996 to 7 May 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 9 May 1996 10:26:53 -0500 from On Thu, 9 May 1996 10:26:53 -0500 Charles Alexander said: >specifically describing a poetry practice as a school which critically >engages language as ideology, this definition seems to make secondary >elements which I find most attractive about language poetry, which is the >foregrounding of poetry as language at play. Any definition of language >poetry which can succeed in including the playful use (& I would argue that >play is absolutely useful; I would also argue that it is ideological, but >not that ideology is the primary intent) of language in Gertrude Stein, >bpNichol, and Charles Bernstein, would gain my confidence. This would correspond (since no one else is taking me up on this thread) with CS Peirce's category of "firstness", to which he attached aesthetics (the "admirable in itself") in general - feeling, quality, randomness, the unrelated pure exploding variety of nature. - H. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 14:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: LANSING TALISMAN!!! The Gerrit Lansing issue of _Talisman_ just arrived: I. Gerrit Lansing section: Lansing's "In Erasmus Darwin's Generous Light" -- Essays/New Work by Featherston, Foster, Killian, Podgurski, Schelb, Stein, Stroffolino, II. New Work by Albon, Alexiou (trans. Kostos), Cherkovski, Cigale, Cornford, Davidson, Ellis, English, Featherston, Geranis (trans. Kostos), Glazier, Henning, High, Hunt, Hunter, Kalamaras, Kalleberg, Keckler, Kelley, Lazar, Lease, Lovell, Lubeski, Mac Low, Marshall, Mossin, Needell, Perlman, Ramsdell, Retsov, Rubenstein, Samuels, Schwartz, Selby, Shurin, Sobin, Stoloff, Tarn, Valente, Waldner, Wright, Yau, III. Commentary by Boughn on Blaser and Emerson, Owens on Nash, Borkhuis on Palmer, IV. Columns by Mobilio, Schwartxz, Shurin, and V. exchange between Perloff and Walsh, and nine-page list of recently received (i.e., great new books, magazines to read). A MAJOR MOMENT!!! And only $6 or subscribe at $11/year. THESE PRICES GO UP SOON! (They have to as our costs continue to spiral!) Please subscribe soon and often. We eschew all academic and other support; they offer, and we do not respond politely. Talisman is a journal for/by poets, but we desperately need your support if we are to continue as such!!!! Talisman, P.O. Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 15:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: WONDERFUL NEW BOOK Just published, arrived this minute from the printer, wonderful selection of Geoffrey O'Brien Poems from Talisman: _Floating City: Selected Poems 1978-1996_, ISBN 1-883689-38-4, $10.50, from Talisman House, Publishers. Available soon at the bookstores we appreciate and patronize, or quicker with Visa/MasterCard, call 1-800-243-0138, or with $3 for pstage/handling, write: Login Publishers Consortium/InBook, 1436 West Randolph Street, Chicago, IL 60607. O'Brien's at the top, amazing poet, terrific book. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 15:56:50 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: LANSING TALISMAN!!! Ed Foster: Sean Killian or Kevin Killian? Thanks. David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:00:09 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Zukowski Subject: Peter Neagoe Does anyone know of a Rumanian/American writer by the name of Peter Neagoe? I read a short story by him, published in _transition_ magazine and believe he published several books of short stories, poetry, prose, and translations. I would like to find out if there are any books in print by him, about him, or about the Surrealist activities in which (I believe) he was involved. Anyone know any answers? Just respond to the list or e-mail me. Thank you. Peter Zukowski zukowski@uic.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:51:21 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Horne On 9th May, Sheila Murphy wrote: "Many students and professionals pursuing professional growth seems wrapped and rapt by the information-as-commodity syndrome." Those of us in the info tech industry have always known and championed the fact that information is a commodity. It used to be knowledge, but nowadays who can know everything? Regards Dan Horne --------------------------------------------------------------------- Technical Analyst Oracle New Zealand Ltd. +64 9 309 1946 Level 16, 7 City Rd. dhorne@nz.oracle.com Auckland, New Zealand --------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Oracle Corporation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:25:47 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: special sales from Sun & Moon Press Comments: To: Douglas Messerli On 7 May 96 at 10:04, Douglas Messerli wrote: > Sun & Moon Press announces some very special sales for > participants in the Poetry List: > Sun & Moon is also offering, for a special, limited time, > FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CENTURY: A NEW AMERICAN POETRY > 1960-1990 > > very slightly damaged copies (corners slightly bent) for only > $5.00; the regular price is $29.95. > > All orders are the quoted price plus $1.00 shipping and handling. Yes! I'll go for one of these! I'm at Joseph Zitt Texas Instruments 8505 Forest Lane M/S 8678 (Cube #-4144) Dallas, TX 75243 Thanks! ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:15:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 May 1996 to 9 May 1996 In a message dated 96-05-10 00:26:21 EDT, you write: >If you believe that more "expansive" poetry is not about anything (and >later you can tell me why you believe that), then why do you agree with >me that future editions should be more expansive? Are you adopting a >poetics of anti-aboutness?? The poem is about, Aldon, but the poetry is not, is what I think I mean. And that is the Olson expansive. As to expanding to further, as in exploding parameters, that's wjhere I agree. And yup, everything is everything. (Again? I think) >Just how does something made out of language go about not be about >anything???? (which, as in painting, I would expect is considerably a >different matter from being non-representational) ["go about not be]?? >my keboard writes poems to me -- 1. By being "about everything" 2. By "being about" language 3. My mind speaks to me 4. I'm going to sit write down and right myself a letter (pick ONE: abcdefghijklmnopqstuvwxyz) Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:37:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: relang. In-Reply-To: <199605100409.AAA03672@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Years ago (I AM getting old) Ron S. offered as an acceptable definition of a language poet: "anyone who has ever been accused of being a language poet" now THAT'S expansive -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:58:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 May 1996 to 9 May 1996 This discussion between Aldon N. And B. Holman about being not about to be about or not to be about ------- I don't think Bob was saying that poems that aren't ABOUT something don't have any meaning.... but what he meant by ABOUT was a very particular kind of "aboutness" ______ It can't be "about" things like "consciousness" or "words" as much as rootedness, in place or ethnic identity, and there must be some kind of thematic consistency, PIN DOWNable.... easily....... ______ though pop songs are sometimes more of a challenge than wild "out there" "free improv....." ------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:00:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: LANSING TALISMAN!!! it's _kevin_ killian in this case, david: he rewrites a hawthorne story making "kevin" and "gerrit lansing" central figures. quite wonderful in fact: a "thrice-told" tale. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:02:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: relang. In-Reply-To: When did the term "L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E" poet vs. "language" poet drop out of use? with the demise of the original L=, or just because people got tired of typing equals signs, or what? Institutional laziness on the part of academicians who couldn't be bothered to distinguish between the different varieties of querzblatz poetics? Yrs for Scrabble, Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:06:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: 72 Hours Just spent about 72 hours (not continuously!) in the darkest forests of HTML. I continue to be amazed at what an extraordinarily intricate world this is *at a technical* or writing level. (That is, like grammar, how commands and operations mean different things at different times; how some operations are misleading and so to be clear you must use a circumlocution - or less-than-direct path between the trees.) This is a writing space where the most minute movements are possible. Painfully incremental adjustments of latitude and longitude; increments of relative positioning of both "inline" and "floating" images; adjustments to physicality of the presentation *itself* (do you want to specify the PROJECTED dimensions of the graphic? what is its relation to the real dimensions of the graphic? do you wish to adjust its number of colors, its resolution, its pixelation?) Is there a difference in anyone's eye between the thousands of web pages that are springing up (CNN, Ford, ATT True Savings - the announcement of this last site really got me. As if those phone calls offering you deals on your long distance service weren't already enough!) and a web-writing that is different not from the obvious point of view of content but of *writing*? In a piece of writing we also read the grammar (or misread it). Do we tend to _read_ less when we're online? Perhaps it also took a while for people to begin "reading" TV? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:35:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 May 1996 to 9 May 1996 In-Reply-To: <199605100409.AAA03672@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at May 10, 96 00:05:20 am Re: Billie Whitelaw: as many of you may know, she's in the Zeffirelli version of Jane Eyre -- she plays -- Grace Poole! I only know that from the credits at the end of the picture; couldn't recognize her while she was on screen. Charles Watts cwatts@sfu.ca "The present order is the disorder of the future" -- Saint Just, via Ian Hamilton Finlay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 17:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: 72 Hours what's HTML? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 17:46:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: About about In-Reply-To: <01I4JHXLN9TU8WWP5T@cnsvax.albany.edu> About about: I quote William James, from "The Principles of Psychology," commenting on the substantive bias of language: "All dumb or anonymous psychic states have, owing to this error [of supposing that where there is no name no entity can exist], been cooly suppressed; or, if recognized at all, have been named after the substantive perception they led to, as thoughts 'about' this object or 'about' that, the monotonous word *about* engulfing all their delicate idiosyncrasies in its monotonous sound. Thus the greater and greater accentuation and isolation of the substantive parts have continually gone on." In other words, language begins to get interesting when you go around about, as Frost might have put it. (Oh, that sounds like a challenge!) Best, Jonathan Levin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 18:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim wood Subject: Re: special sales from Sun & Moon Press >On 7 May 96 at 10:04, Douglas Messerli wrote: > >> Sun & Moon Press announces some very special sales for >> participants in the Poetry List: >> Sun & Moon is also offering, for a special, limited time, >> FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CENTURY: A NEW AMERICAN POETRY >> 1960-1990 >> >> very slightly damaged copies (corners slightly bent) for only >> $5.00; the regular price is $29.95. >> >> All orders are the quoted price plus $1.00 shipping and handling. Put me down also: Tim Wood PO Box 835984 Richardson, TX 75083 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:57:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: klobucar Subject: Re: Orono Conference I'm critical of personal requests and commentary on this list, but I can think of no better medium, so here goes.... Some weeks ago, I noticed specific enquiries about potential bunk mates for the Orono Conference next month. I too am hoping to save some USD by finding a rooming partner for the duration, or at least part of June's event. Thus a general request: anybody requiring a male roomie in Orono please respond via my e-mail address klobucar@unixg.ubc.ca Hope to hear from somebody, Thanks, Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:00:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: 72 Hours once upon a time, maria d. wrote: >what's HTML? html stands for HyperText Markup Language or something very much like that. it's one of the types of computer code that is used to make web pages. You can do all sorts of nifty things with it if you know what you're doing, or even if you don't. it's a pretty rudimentary system. if you've got a terminal around with netscape or mosaic, you can look at http://www.cnw.com/~drclue/Formula_One.cgi/HTML/HTML.html which is dr. clue's infobahn html guide and has much more info than i do. if you don't have a graphical web browser like netscape around you may have a text only browser like lynx available, but with lynx you can't see all the cheesy graphics dr. clue put on his page. maybe someone else knows the url of a text-based info site? hope this helps! eryque ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 18:30:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 May 1996 to 9 May 1996 >Re: Billie Whitelaw: as many of you may know, she's in the Zeffirelli >version of Jane Eyre -- she plays -- Grace Poole! I only know that from >the credits at the end of the picture; couldn't recognize her while she >was on screen. > >Charles Watts >cwatts@sfu.ca This is Kevin Killian. I will never forget Billie Whitelaw in "Night Watch," the US-financed thriller made in London around 1975? or so? where she is the other woman Lawrence Harvey loves and so they both try to drive Elizabeth Taylor crazy, and Taylor wears the most insane nightdress you've ever seen . . . Billie Whitelaw must have seen that dress and then buried herself up to the neck in sand in shock. As for "Jane Eyre," any film that has Whitelaw, Plowright, Maria Schneider (!!!!), Elle Macpherson (????), and GERALDINE CHAPLIN all in it will be playing for years at our local camp theaters here in San Francisco, perhaps in a triple bill with "Showgirls" and "Valley of the Dolls." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:01:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: 72 Hours >what's HTML? HyperText Mark-up Language It's the coding required for the world wide web. A strange way to tell things browsers like NetScape how to display language and images. And it's the biggest such code going, although there are other possibilities, like JAVA, which works in a rather different manner. But if one wants to do work on the web, HTML is a part of the poetics. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 22:51:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 May 1996 to 9 May 1996 In-Reply-To: <199605101735.RAA11432@beaufort.sfu.ca> On Fri, 10 May 1996, Charles Watts wrote: > Re: Billie Whitelaw: as many of you may know, she's in the Zeffirelli > version of Jane Eyre -- she plays -- Grace Poole! I only know that from > the credits at the end of the picture; couldn't recognize her while she > was on screen. > > Charles Watts > cwatts@sfu.ca > > "The present order is the disorder of the future" -- Saint Just, via Ian > Hamilton Finlay > thank you for the spotting. our english dept. softball team called the Jane Errors just lost by 8ight runs to the library. you've told us that Billie Whitelaw plays Grace Poole, but can she play second base?! kevin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:14:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: special sales from Sun & Moon Press In-Reply-To: <199605102316.SAA24610@connect.net> On Fri, 10 May 1996, Tim wood wrote: > >On 7 May 96 at 10:04, Douglas Messerli wrote: > > > >> Sun & Moon Press announces some very special sales for > >> participants in the Poetry List: > >> Sun & Moon is also offering, for a special, limited time, > >> FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CENTURY: A NEW AMERICAN POETRY > >> 1960-1990 > >> > >> very slightly damaged copies (corners slightly bent) for only > >> $5.00; the regular price is $29.95. > >> > >> All orders are the quoted price plus $1.00 shipping and manhandling i hope the euphoria of commerce does't taint the list, but i'll take 1 too. kevin angelo hehir 578 lambto st. london, on N5Y 4G2 please inform me backchannel as to best get the USD to you. thanks, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 01:11:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Schneider? >As for "Jane Eyre," any film that has Whitelaw, Plowright, Maria Schneider >(!!!!), Elle Macpherson (????), and GERALDINE CHAPLIN all in it will be >playing for years at our local camp theaters here in San Francisco, perhaps >in a triple bill with "Showgirls" and "Valley of the Dolls." Kevin, you're kidding! Maria Schneider is in another movie already? Oh, lord! I have been hearing so much about "Jane Eyre." Thank goodness. Because Whiyelaw has been in so many low budget unseen movies in recent years. Hey, how would that movie play on Turk Street if it had Nastasia Kinsky in it? .......................... What does Lucky Strike mean again? George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 01:11:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Whitelaw > >thank you for the spotting. >our english dept. softball team called the Jane Errors just lost by 8ight >runs to the library. you've told us that Billie Whitelaw plays Grace >Poole, but can she play second base?! > >kevin I saw her in the Bradford High School brass band. She was playing second bass. .......................... What does Lucky Strike mean again? George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 10:44:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Re: Electronic Ink In-Reply-To: <199605110409.AAA07736@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> For all those who replied to my request way back for small press & bookstore URLs: the beginnings of the database are available at http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/wjbat/Electronic_Ink There are links to EPC, of course, to presses, bookstores, & a few e-text sites. I'm most interested in making this a distribution tool for print; if/when your press or bookstore has a website with catalog, send me the URL & I'll add it. Wendy ---------------------------------------------------------------- Wendy Battin http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/wjbat/ wjbat@conncoll.edu wbattin@mit.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 11:45:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: EPC Featured Connect The "Net" (featured connect) at the EPC right now is $lavery Cyberzine >The April 15, 1996 issue contains work by Alice Notley, John Godfrey >Jackson Mac Low, Ed Sanders, Barbara Barg, Douglas Oliver, >Simon Pettet, Yvonne Jacquette, Allen Ginsberg, >Ted Berrigan and many others. Also includes collage/collab >photography, fine art, etc. > >Site designed and maintained by Harris Schiff The EPC is at http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:07:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: = = = = = In-Reply-To: <199605110409.AAA07736@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Gwyn: typing laziness on my part when it comes to e-mail BUT, I can report at least one experience of being blasted heavily by an anonymous reader for a journal who thought it outrageous that I should use such a term as "L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E," which, despite its appearance in books, articles etc., my anonymous ref. assured me NOBODY used anymore -- go figger! -------------- about about: the responses to my last on this topic leave me if anything further beclouded -- sounds as ig the objection isn't actually that some poems "aren't about anything," but rather a strong reaction against what they are in fact about? remember that great sixties cliche, "we're about the business of . . ."? Like Paul Blackburn, I remain as ever yours, in, on, or about the premises -- particularly the unspecified and presupposed premises ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:16:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Orono and there abouts In-Reply-To: <199605110409.AAA07736@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> My essay for the 50s conference at Orono was briefly orphaned by the disappearance of the papers to either side of it, but Burt and Company have now happily relocated me on panel 3B, at 3:30 on the first day of the conference. If you're interested in innovative poetics and African-American writing, note that the panel now addresses Stephen Jonas, Melvin Tolson and Russell Atkins. (Though this means I will have to miss other interesting panels, but maybe the Mina Loy panelists, for example, will let me read copies?) ---- Now, about these prepositions -- The James quote is about perfect, in my book! In another book, a photo voulme in tribute to W.E.B. DuBois published by Johnson Publications, I see that the blurb writers have DuBois attending a course with Henry, rather than William, James! Now that would have been something to write home about -- love to all from hereabouts, aldon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:47:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: = = = = = Aldon, are you trying to "coin" a new movement here? Based on eqaulity (we are all equals in signs). "I am he as you are...." or is that the flipside ===============being the music (the median strip) to the "meaning" (metonymy) that is language? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:16:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: chapbook (new) I just received via email today a chapbook published by reference:press it includes work by three writers: jennifer moxley angela littwin and keith waldrop---- definitely worth checking out. send queries to Beth Anderson, 154 Doyle ve. Providence, RI. 02906.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 16:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Larry Levis Comments: To: CAP-L@vm1.spcs.umn.edu Comments: cc: halem@tcplink.nrel.gov The poet Larry Levis has died. A heart attack. He was 49 and teaching in Virginia. Born and raised near Fresno, CA. Student and long time friend of Phil Levine. The books I have of his are The Afterlife, Wrecking Crew and Winter Stars. I have another one of his books, On Out by Lew Welch. It is inscribed: For Larry -- get out of town Lew 7/10/68 I remember kicking field goals with him and his son through the goal posts of almond trees at his mother's selma ranch. The mountain bluebirds down from the sierra winter lighting on the short grafted trees. Playing pool at a mexican bar in perfectly normal crossroads. A lowrider pulling up next to him and saying: You and me man, we just can't get low enough. On his harley in suit and his lovely bride in white on the back. His gentle and sexy deep voice. He could never get a group of lions at the zoo to roar but would instead have them swooning. I'm going over to my mom's to get some lampshades for Louise. What follows is Rhododendrons by Larry Levis. Rhododendrons WINTER has moved off somewhere, writing its journals in ice. But I am still afraid to move, afraid to speak, as if I lived in a house wallpapered with the cries of birds I cannot identify. Beneath the trees a young couple sits talking about the afterlife, where no one, I think, is whittling toys for the stillborn, I laugh, but don't know. Maybe the whole world is absent minded or floating. Maybe the new lovers undress without wondering how the snow grows over the Andes, or how a horse cannot remember those frozen in the sleigh behind it, but keeps running until the lines tangle, while the dead sit coolly beneath their pet stars. As I write this, some blown rhododendrons are nodding in the first breezes. I want to resemble them, and remember nothing, the way a photograph of an excavation cannot remember the sun. The wind rises or stops and it means nothing. I want to be circular; a pond or a column of smoke revolving, slowly, its aches. I want to turn back and go up to myself at age 20, and press five dollars into his hand so he can sleep. While he stands trembling on a street in Fresno, suddenly one among many in a crowd that strolls down Fulton Street, among the stores that are closing, and is never heard of again. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 14:20:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: pick ONE Bob Holman wrote: >4. I'm going to sit write down and right myself a letter (pick ONE: >abcdefghijklmnopqstuvwxyz) Obviously some sort of trick deck, though I don't get the point of the trick. Or perhaps an homage to WCW. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 17:54:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Larry Levis thanks maz for the eulogy and poem. never heard of levis before, but now i have and am glad. esp to hear of someone else whose mother's called selma. went to a funeral myself this a.m., and heard a 10 yr old girl read a poem to her dad whose 34 yr old dad's car crashed a coupla mornings ago, and he went up in the fiery wreckage..."I sit here in grief, listening with disbelief...daddy daddy why'd you leave? daddy daddy come back please." it was...poetic. i didn't know the guy he was a friend of friends and i went cuz they wanted to show up in my car instead of their own work truck. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:47:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Ism-isms Aldon (who doesn't look that old) notes: > >Years ago (I AM getting old) Ron S. offered as an acceptable definition of a language poet: "anyone who has ever been accused of being a language poet" > >now THAT'S expansive -- > My old roomie, Tinker Greene, used to suggest (irritably) that a language poet was anyone who denied being one. By the bye, Aldon, that was a GREAT presentation on Steve Jonas at New College the other day. Genuinely terrific! >From: Gwyn McVay >Subject: Re: relang. > >When did the term "L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E" poet vs. "language" poet drop out of use? with the demise of the original L=, or just because people got tired of typing equals signs, or what? Institutional laziness on the part of academicians who couldn't be bothered to distinguish between the different varieties of querzblatz poetics? > >Yrs for Scrabble, >Gwyn So far as I know, nobody associated with the poetry itself ever used the equal signs in a self-identifying fashion. Some others (critics, reviewers and revilers) did so in order to associate the social phenomenon with one of its later manifestations. I've always read the equal signs as a special code on the part of an author as their way of signalling "I don't get it" Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:21:09 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Stephen Jonas This is Dodie Bellamy. Ron Silliman wrote: >By the bye, Aldon, that was a GREAT presentation on Steve Jonas at New >College the other day. Genuinely terrific! > Thanks for the pr for Small Press Traffic, Ron. I thought the whole panel was wonderfully provoking, the issues of racism and its relationship to outsiderness and the yearning to be inside. Your reading for us (here in San Francisco) at Four Walls was great too. I guess absence does make the heart grow fonder. x, Dodie p.s. For those of you who were not at the Stephen Jonas panel/event with Aldon Nielsen, Will Alexander and Joe Torra . . . Small Press Traffic has a great bargain for you. Jeff Conant & Woof Press took the occasion to produce a limited edition broadside/lithograph-each one unique, hand colored-of a "new" S. Jonas poem, made available to us by the executors of the Jonas estate, Raffael de Gruttola and Gerrit Lansing. Only $15.00 + nominal shipping. Back channel me (at dbkk@sirius.com) for more information. Thanks everyone. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 20:01:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Larry Levis from Laura Hope-Gill c/o GHawkins@halcyon.com In kind response to Bill Luoma's picture of Levis amid the almond tree goalposts and outside the lion's cage, I want to offer more pictures of him, from just January-- such a surprising short time until this. I had the great however brief pleasure of knowing Larry Levis as student/acquaintance at Warren Wilson College MFA Prog. last winter, my first and his many-eth, and I am sad. remembering him clearly there in the snowed-in campus, smoking a Marlboro, drinking beer, the music from the "Sweatheart Ball" coming out into the night, looking over the snow-buried gardens and mountains saying "you expect Jack Nicholson to come around in the SnowCat any second don't you?" Larry Levis wore v-necked sweaters w/o turtleneck or undershirt under a thin overcoat in 0 degree wind, broke mid-lecture into full-text "Life Stories", danced madly in large steps and wide spins, quoted Talking Heads in the same sentence as Ezra Pound and made it work. He was calm, understated, dry, realistic, (when can we say "brilliant.") When Tony Hoagland asked, after the reading and outside smoking, "How's your class on "Thought and Feeling" coming along?" Levis responded, leaning on the iced rail, exhaling thickly "I ditched the thought portion and my life's been easier since." I called a friend who was corresponding with him this semester and was as of yesterday without "teacher," and we agreed: there's just a certain breed of human we can't stand to lose. A former student and friend of the poet sent us this excerpt from "Adolescence" in Winter Stars: > -He had been drinking steadily all week, > And was dealing cards > When the muscle of his own heart > Kicked him back into his chair so hard its wood snapped. > He must have thought there was something > Suddenly very young inside his body, > If he had time to think . . . I hear the heart attack was so massive he probably didn't know, and I hope. There are others out there who are much sadder than I am I'm sure, with deeper memories which pain more deeply, and I wish you well with your memories of "the Levis of the Levis of the Levis. ("Self Portrait with Radio"), who did not "think that anything could choose me/ To be a Larry Levis before there even was/ a Larry Levis. ("Family Romance")" "When he died it was like a whole library had burned down." -Laurie Anderson I am glad I saved the cap off the bottle of champagne shared between Levis and a few students including myself at the final dinner, not knowing why I was tucking it safely into my pocket as I believed myself "over" the tchotchke phase (perhaps it's the swooning of lions, Bill), on which I read today the word pressed into the metal: BRUT and think no, not at all. With warmest regards, Laura Hope-Gill laurahopegill@halcyon.com >The poet Larry Levis has died. A heart attack. He was 49 and teaching in >Virginia. Born and raised near Fresno, CA. Student and long time friend of >Phil Levine. The books I have of his are The Afterlife, Wrecking Crew and >Winter Stars. I have another one of his books, On Out by Lew Welch. It is >inscribed: > > >For Larry -- >get out of town > Lew > 7/10/68 > > >I remember kicking field goals with him and his son through the goal posts of >almond trees at his mother's selma ranch. The mountain bluebirds down from >the sierra winter lighting on the short grafted trees. Playing pool at a >mexican bar in perfectly normal crossroads. A lowrider pulling up next to him >and saying: You and me man, we just can't get low enough. On his harley in >suit and his lovely bride in white on the back. His gentle and sexy deep >voice. He could never get a group of lions at the zoo to roar but would >instead have them swooning. I'm going over to my mom's to get some >lampshades for Louise. > >What follows is Rhododendrons by Larry Levis. > >Rhododendrons > >WINTER has moved off >somewhere, writing its journals >in ice. > >But I am still afraid to move, >afraid to speak, >as if I lived in a house >wallpapered with the cries of birds >I cannot identify. > >Beneath the trees >a young couple sits talking >about the afterlife, >where no one, I think, is >whittling toys for the stillborn, >I laugh, > >but don't know. >Maybe the whole world is absent minded >or floating. Maybe the new lovers undress >without wondering how >the snow grows over the Andes, >or how a horse cannot remember those >frozen in the sleigh behind it, >but keeps running until the lines tangle, >while the dead sit coolly beneath their pet stars. > >As I write this, >some blown rhododendrons are nodding >in the first breezes. I want >to resemble them, and remember nothing, >the way a photograph of an excavation >cannot remember the sun. > >The wind rises or stops >and it means nothing. > >I want to be circular; >a pond or a column of smoke >revolving, slowly, its aches. > >I want to turn back and go up >to myself at age 20, >and press five dollars into his hand >so he can sleep. >While he stands trembling on a street in Fresno, >suddenly one among many in a crowd >that strolls down Fulton Street, >among the stores that are closing, >and is never heard of again. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:25:21 -0500 Reply-To: landers@vivanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: landers Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: Ism-isms Ron writes, re: >>From: Gwyn McVay >>Subject: Re: relang. >> >>When did the term "L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E" poet vs. "language" poet drop out >>of use? > >So far as I know, nobody associated with the poetry itself ever used >the equal signs in a self-identifying fashion. Some others (critics, >reviewers and revilers) did so in order to associate the social >phenomenon with one of its later manifestations. I've always read the >equal signs as a special code on the part of an author as their way of >signalling "I don't get it" > >Ron Silliman Ron, I have used the equals to indicate the 'zine. What do these poets have in common beyond the 'zine, anyway? Sure, there seems to be a common reading list... one that was written about extensively in the 'zine! And there are common publishers. I don't think of language poetry as a school of poets so much as a group of readers who share their points of view in similar forums. And, if it is a school, there are a lot of fish swimming the other way! The 'zine was the hippest thing when it was going. I might say you all had a common essay style, but that's about as far as I would go. I used to sneak reading time in L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E when I was supposed to be shipping books. You were all very helpful to me because you let me know that someone out there liked the same stuff. The universities sure weren't foisting LZ or Gertrude. Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com Hey readers! Check out my website... I'm getting ready for the great unveiling of Happy Genius, and I practiced on my own poetry. http://www.vivanet.com/~landers pdl ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 10:00:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: = that is to the thing itself In-Reply-To: <199605120407.AAA12487@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> as critic / reviler I never used "L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E School" or movement, but was found on occasion using "L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E" to refer to writers who in fact appeared in the pages of said mag., and to continue to distinguish that from the journal _Language_, already on the scene before Bernstein and Andrews got their stapler going -- But, Chris, I wasn't trying so much to coin a new movement as to make use of that which has now been left behind, and is therefore there for the taking? If we are to write of "language writers," I think, particularly since I work, when I work, at the same institution as Alan Soldofsky, one of the ur-revilers who first loosed the unequal version of the misnomer upon the world, that I should inherit those now unused symbols of identity; I'm such an egalitarian -- though I may not be equal to the task -- As Dodie & Kevin mentioned -- Those Jonas broadsides are BEAUTIFUL -- Jeff Conant's work is a prize -- each sheet is different from the others -- GET ONE OF THESE! -- better than yr average broadside == dare I say, without equal? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 10:30:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: New Sun & Moon electronic magazine Dear Friends, Thanks for the orders for RIBOT and FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CENTURY. We still have copies of all of these, and can fill further orders at the same prices ($4.00 for the RIBOTS) and ($5.00 for the anthology) if you missed out on this good sale. We'll plan sales of other slightly damaged S&M titles from time to time. I'm writng at this moment, however, to announce a new magazine of the internet: WHERE LITERATURE LIVES. The first issue, #1, is now up at the Sun & Moon web-site (http://www.sunmoon.com). This will be a monthly mag- azine with selections from forthcoming Sun & Moon titles, reviews of Sun & Moon books, occasional reviews of other books, plays, and films (incorporating what we tried to do in EL-E-PHANT) and other literary information. The first issue, designed by the remarkable Kenny Goldsmith, contains fiction by Spanish writer Norberto Luis Romero, a selection from the new novel NOD, by Fanny Howe, and a section from Stacey Levine's upcoming novel, DRA--. The issue contains poetry by contemporary Norwegian poet Paal-Helge Haugen, the Finnish poet Claes Anderson, the great living Turkish poet Ece Ayhan, the Austrian modernist Friederike Mayrocker, a work from readiness / enough / depends / on by Larry Eigner, and poems by younger American poets Lee Ann Brown, Juliana Spahr and Cole Swensen. The first issue also has a powerful essay "Further Under" from Aaron Shurin's forthcoming UNBOUND: A BOOK OF AIDS. We invite you to all take a look at this new offering, and down- load any stories or poems you want. Do remember, however, that all material is copyrighted. We're hard at work on the June issue. Finally, two new Sun & Moon books have just been published, and we expect a third next week. They are: THE CATASTROPHE, a wonderful new novel by Robert Steiner ISBN: 1-55713-233-X, Sun & Moon Classics #134, $13.95 WHERE HEAT LOOMS, a collection of poetry by the renowned French Modernist Andre du Bouchet ISBN: 1-55713-238-0, Sun & Moon Classics #87, $12.95 and LOTION BULLWHIP GIRAFFE, a first collection of poetry by Tan Lin ISBN: 1-55713-258-5, New American Poetry Series: 26, $10.95 Sun & Moon offers a 15% discount on these titles for the Poetics List. Order through our web-site. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:34:36 -0500 Reply-To: landers@vivanet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: landers Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: laughing at myself about Tagart I'm laughing hard at myself! I just read Taggart's piece in Apex of the M and I don't think he would take too kindly to my comparison of him to Glass. I was thinking of "Peace on Earth" when I said that. oops! It just goes to show how such comparisons are misleading. And yes, I found the interview where Creeley and Ginsburg are talking about music. Creeley said that he was writing while listening to jazz. Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:44:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: info: May 12 update book information website I thought this might be useful to at least a few on the Poetics List. I haven't checked it out enough to know if such special collections as SUNY/Buffalo's Poetry Room, or UC-San Diego's Archive for New Poetry, or SF State's American Poetry Archive, are included. One would hope so, as well as other treasures perhaps. Some of the sites which concern book arts and alternative book forms may be of interest to those interested in textual/visual concerns. >Return-Path: owner-book_arts-l@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU >Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 10:09:31 EDT >Reply-To: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting" > >Sender: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting" > >From: Ton Cremers <101502.3511@COMPUSERVE.COM> >Subject: info: May 12 update book information website >To: Multiple recipients of list BOOK_ARTS-L > >X-UIDL: f769d2aa6439f37bac7acf166533b5d7 > >Http://www.globalxs.nl/home/c/cremers > > >In our May 12 update you can find new links to: > >-Special Collections of the University of Virginia Library with underlying links >to Special Collections on the Internet, the Electronic Text Center (top 5% of >the web, Magellan 4 stars site), National and International Special Collections >-Scott B.Denlingers site (Catalog Librarian for the German Library Project at >the German Society of Pennsylvania) >-The American Library Ass. (oldest and largest library ass. Of the world) >-information was added to: Online Catalogs with Webbed Interfaces >-visit our page http://www.globalxs.nl/home/c/cremers/bo00025 Extraordinary and >the on-line exhibition The Pop-Up world of Ann Montanaro, with links to other >Pop-Up sites and textfile History of Pop-Up and Movable Books >-Pop-Up books from the Collections at the Lilly Library >-Broders Rare and Used Books >-in the Manuscript section a modern manuscript has been added: Maske: Thaery >Jack Vance, a website by Mike Berro >-Legacy Art & Bookworks, Columbia MO, Bookconservation and repair, Handbinding, >Decorated Papers, Workshops >-(The Friends of) The Museum of Printing. A museum not yet to be visited but the >plans seem to be okay >-Typography Links and Contact,regularly updated page with over one hundred >typography links >-Kelly Stones IDIOLECT in the artists books section >-Nat.Museum of Am.History and Printing Presses in the Graphic Arts Collection >-new page has been created with Photography Galleries on the WWW >-The Penny Magazine, nineteenth century weekly magazine for the workingclass. >Many issues on-line >-Miniature Book Society >-in the manuscript section: The Tyndale New Testament, The Sforza Hours, Magna >Carta, Lindisfarne Gospels >-Type designers and their faces: Alphabetical list of type designers through the >ages, with samples of their work and biographical information >-Cathedral Libraries Catalogue, books printed before 1701 in the libraries of >the Anglican Cathedrals of England and Wales >-Five hundred Years of Bembo, with related links. >-Joseph Wu Origami Page (nice site) >-Xerxes Books Home Page >-Archives and Manuscript Finding Aids at Harvard/Radcliffe >-Manuscripts with Music: seminar in the History of the Book to 1500. >-Sarabande Paper Quote. High resolution scans of handmade papers. >-Information has been added to Center for Book Arts summer programs: large >textfile with information about all couses at the Center for Book Arts. > >Please send information about additional relevant sites. > >5/12/96 >.................... >regards, > > >Ton Cremers and Marian Beereboom >******BOOKS************ >Rechter Rottekade 171 >3032 XD Rotterdam >Holland >e-mail: 101502.3511@compuserve.com >e-mail: cremers@globalxs.nl >http://www.globalxs.nl/home/c/cremers >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cremers_books >INFOCENTER ON BOOKS/BOEKEN INFORMATIE CENTRUM >*************************************************************** > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:29:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Ism-isms aldon, cd u back channel me or snail me w/ yr jonas paper of which rilliman raves? 128 racing beach ave falmouth ma 02540 bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:38:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) Annie Finch has asked me to forward the following message to the poetics list. She is not on the list herself, but I will send any responses on the list to her, and of course anyone who wants to contact her could do so at the address below. Mark Wallace ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:39:42 -0500 From: Annie Finch To: mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Cc: kvarnes@udel.edu Subject: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition Dear Mark Wallace, My email access is restored and I can finally think about the compelling issues raised by our recent discussions about innovative form. It seems to me that the distinction between "innovative" and 'noninnovative" forms, implicitly raised by your comment that I had overlooked certain forms in my AWP piece, may be an unnecessary distinction. Perhaps, as Michael Boughn has suggested, the distinction between formal and nonformal poems is, in the final analysis, also an unnecessary distinction, and poems are all formal but lie along a continuum between regular and irregular form. In the AWP piece, as in the Formal Feeling Comes anthology, I tried to define the characteristics that bring a poem closer to the regularly formal end of the continuum, namely a structure formed by conspicuous repetition of any language element. The question is, is there anything in that definition to rule out innovative poetry. After considering the texts you mentioned in your fascinating bibliography, I still don't think there is any opposition between my definition of form and innovative language use. There may be temperamental disinclination among many "innovative" poets to use regularly repeating forms, which may be why I had such a hell of a time finding regularly formal innovative poets for the anthology. But they do exist, as you so rightly point out; Henry Gould, Jackson MacLow, Juliana Spahr, etc., are certainly writing regularly formal poems. The two points I would make are these: First, I have yet to see (though I would LOVE to see) a regular form that is truly, in and of itself, an Innovative Form--in other words, a form, according to the structured by conspicuous repetition definition, that is truly NEW in a significant way. Jackson MacLow, of whom I am now a staunch fan, and who I am extremely grateful to you for making me read again, does wonderfully innovative things IN form, but the forms themselves are familiar forms; he uses a kind of pantoum in "HappyNew Year 1964," "syllabics in "Odes for Iris," concrete or shaped poems, a sonnet once in a while, and most of the time, even in incarnations as fresh as "Molly Go" and certainly in poems like the Light poems, a form as old as the hills, very flexible and often overlooked as a form, but a familiar regular form nonetheless: the chant. Is it possible that regular forms are like the letters of the alphabet--you can do things with them that are new, but they themselves are basically simple tools, hard to improve on, Dr. Seuss's On Beyond Zebra notwithstanding? If this is true, getting that fact out into the open would certainly simplify the field of poetics at the formal end of the continuum. I am, of course, keeping here to the definition of formal poetry as structured by the conspicous repetition of any language element, a definition that is practical and of necessity somewhat reductionistic. The fact that irregular form, organic form, and larger formal/thematic structures also operate in much contemporary poetry at the "irregular" end of spectrum shouldn't interfere with the usefulness of a firm definition of what is formal at the "regular" end. The other point concerns what Michael Boughn calls 'deformations," poems that change/deform received forms. After much thought on this matter, it seems to me that, while all deformations of a traditional form can certainly be usefully thought of as akin to each other, some deformations remain at the formal end of the continuum while others do not. To take the sonnet as an example, the deformations I included in A Formal Feeling Comes are still regularly formal--some rhymed nonmetrical sonnets, some unrhymed metrical sonnets, some metrically variable but still metrical sonnets, some 16 or 18 line sonnets or 12 line sonnets that kept the rhyme and meter. All these deformations are still formal, because they are structured by the conspicuous repetition of language elements. Bernadette Mayer's deformations of the sonnet, while it is interesting to consider them in the context of the more formal deformations--which is why I mentioned them in the introduction to A Formal Feeling Comes-- are on the other hand not regularly formal, in my opinion, since the only elements of the sonnet they keep are the name and the length and they are otherwise irregular in structure (length, by itself, seems a quality of extension or size, not of structure or shape, or else any nineteen-line poem would be a villanelle). At this point, my preference in editing the upcoming book would be to include "innovative" poems, poems with nonreferential or nonsequential language, among the more mainstream poems, as much as the editors of the individual sections (the section for each form will be edited by a different poet) would like/will permit. Unless any innovative regular forms turn up that really WON'T fit under the existing rubrics of chant, concrete poem, syllabic poem, etc., it seems an inappropriate ghettoization to isolate innovative poems in a separate section based on their language when their forms would include them in already existing sections. Any poets who do have innovative regularly formal poems, by themselves or others, that they'd like to have considered (keeping in mind that this anthology will consist largely of pre-20th century poems, so space is very limited for contemporary work) should contact me or Kathrine Varnes, my coeditor (kvarnes@udel.edu), and we will forward the work to the appropriate section-editor; also anyone who has a strong proclivity for a certain form and might want to edit a section on it, please contact us and we'll see if the form is still available. Many thanks, Mark, for forwarding this message to the poetics list. ANNIE FINCH DEPARTMENT OF ENGLISH MIAMI UNIVERSITY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:53:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: Billy Whitelaw 2B Billy Whitelaw may not play 2B, but it is a perfect ballplayer's name, considering the number of Billy's, White's (Bill White 1B, Frank White 2B, Roy White OF, etc.), and Law's (Vernon, most of all) that have played major league ball. For fantasy lineups, please see Charles North's series of ten lineups in _Transfer_, 1/2 (Sp '88). Just to give two examples: Clover cf Chicory 3B Daisy ss Sunflower lf Thistle 1b Dandelion rf Queen Anne's Lace 2b Milkweed c Honeysuckle p AND: Pun ss Paradox lf Metaphor cf Simile rf Hyperbole 1b Metonymy 3b Irony c Understatement 2b Zeugma p And what abt that City Lights book about 20 years ago, _Major League Poets_? I still remember the profile of Franz "Bugsy" Kafka 2b, known for his problems w the management, and the opening logo of the baseball diamond pasted-in between the two legs of a Blakean compass. Who wrote that book? I lost my copy long ago. My baseball memory begins with the Baltimore Orioles of 1964, Brooks Robinson's MVP year, and the arrival of Frank Robinson in 1966, how he played w an intensity, pride, AND self-abnegation that I had never seen before (willingness to hit a ground ball to the right side to move a runner up despite leading the league in home runs, slamming the only homer completely out of Memorial Stadium off El Tiante after being decked twice by pitches aimed at his head, etc.). Many years later, when Frank Robby was part of the visiting Orioles' office staff, I waited outside in the rain at Yankee Stadium after a game hoping to get his autograph. When he opened the door to see how hard it was raining, I pleaded: "Frank! I've been a fan of yours for 20 years--you gotta sign my glove!" He looked down at me and said with a smile, "No I don't," and shut the door. Elrod Hendricks, bullpen coach at the time, and also a player on the 60's Orioles, was a lot kinder. I guess I'm just telling this pointless story to see if there are any other Orioles fans lurking on the elist... WKL888@AOL.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:12:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: teach, teach maria d. done writ: >says she's gotten anonymous hate >mail from students saying stuff like, "we pay you to teach, so teach." a couple weeks ago i witnessed a convo on campus about this very topic. one of the grad students said that when she gets that sort of response from students she makes *them* get up and teach the class. dan h. done wrote: >Those of us in the info tech industry have always known and championed the >fact that information is a commodity. yeah, but. information isn't *always* a commodity, is it? sometimes the stuff's just got no "market value" and is nothing but some used up brain cells. seems like a lot of my classmates have the idea that we show up to our very first college class and some old bearded man in a tweed jacket (leather arm patches optional) hands them a big plastic bag which we are supposed to spend the next four (or five or six) years filling. then the idea is (supposedly) that we take our bags o' facts to our first job and wow em. (!) i dunno, maybe if someone had created a really good sorting system for their bag it might be impressive. mine's worn a hole through the bottom already and i can never find anything but poetry anthologies and pop-tart wrappers except the one time i found my marbles. anyway, i'd hope that more people start to figure out that a bag o' tricks (so to speak) might be handier in "the real world". >It used to be knowledge, but nowadays who can know everything? what the heck does that mean? nuttin' up my sleeve, eryque ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:43:10 -0700 Reply-To: Thomas Bell Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: serious poetry? In-Reply-To: <960511175405_292091586@emout08.mail.aol.com> I hope these two were misquoted or poorly edited. The hundreds of thousands who read it wouldn't wouldn't read it at all if they didn't care about it, would they? It wouldn't matter where it was written. Would lovers of "serious" poetry only seek it in the cloisters? tom > "A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if the > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular appeal > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio paz, > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands who > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical that lovers > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 02:51:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: serious poetry? >>...Milosz allowed that computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical >>that lovers of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. uhm, "GIMME AN F!!!!! GIMME A U!!!!!! ....." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:17:31 +0000 Reply-To: William.Northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: William Northcutt Organization: btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de Subject: to Doug Messerli Sorry folks, couldn't reach Doug's address for some reason. Doug, could you please send me 3 copies of From the Other Side...@$5 each? William Northcutt Anglistik I, GWII Universitaet Bayreuth 95440 Bayreuth Germany Thanks, William ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 05:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) Dear Mark Wallace--- Thanks for forwading Annie Finch's remarks on poetry. I am going to have to print the message out before I can respond more fully, and hopefully then, some of the distinctions she makes between formally innovative poems, etc, will become clearer. But, valuing a stance of "naivete" as I do, I'm curious as to some of the applications of these distinctions. In considering form as a criteria for anthologies (ostensibly in disregard of other aesthetic/tonal/ emotional/ concerns), do these other (ostensibly non-formal) considerations slip in through the backdoor as it were? For instance, there seemed to be an implicit (latent--though I may be simply reading this into Ms. Finch's remarks) PREFERENCE for the "regular" forms of MacLow over the "irregularities" of Mayer. Does this mean that Ms. Finch would be more apt to include Maclow in her forthcoming anthology than Mayer (let's get down to the realpolitik of it!)? I am also wondering if my recent series CUSPS (Aerial/Edge, 1995-- I think Rod still has copies) would be considered as "innovative regular formal" or "innovative irregular formal" (or neither).... Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 08:03:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 12 May 1996 18:38:42 -0400 from On Sun, 12 May 1996 18:38:42 -0400 Annie Finch said: > The two points I would make are these: First, I have yet to see >(though I would LOVE to see) a regular form that is truly, in and of >itself, an Innovative Form--in other words, a form, according to the >structured by conspicuous repetition definition, that is truly NEW in a >significant way. >Is it possible that regular forms are like letters of the >alphabet--you can do things with them that are new, but they themselves are >basically simple tools, hard to improve on, Dr. Seuss's On Beyond Zebra >notwithstanding? If this is true, getting that fact out into the open >would certainly simplify the field of poetics at the formal end of the >continuum. This is an interesting question. My first reaction would be that every form had to be a new form at some point in history, so the advent of really new forms would have to be a probability. On the other hand, perhaps forms like the sonnet or the villanelle should be considered "finishings" rather than something really new. If one tries to view the whole span of poetry history, the sense is that distinct forms emerged out of an archaic ritual matrix in which specific song- forms filled particular communal roles, so that more recent, "literary" forms might be "finished" conversions on an older "alphabet", rather than really new. What then is this "finish" - and is there a potential for "really new" forms in contemporary writing on a par with the sonnet (i.e. not really REALLY new, but new conversions of an older alphabet)? Perhaps the common element in finish is a kind of complexity - an added layer of self-consciousness or reflexivity or awareness which renovates a slumbering form - or a slumbering social reality which instigates a form. Here again, though I hate to sound axe-grinding repetitive, poets might find some useful tools in the study of formal logic. CS Peirce's logic/semiotic is all about how new knowledge is worked out by way of an acute awareness of the linguistic workings of thought itself - his "logic of relatives" (warning: I'm a novice here & am probably misrepresenting this) seems to be about discovering new meaning in the structural overlay of term/hypothesis/proposition/argument - i.e. hypothesis is built in to the structure of EVERY verbal statement. So that in this day & age "really new" forms might grow out of a logical systematic built into poems - that poets might discover these forms by grounding verbal "hypotheses"(i.e. the "content") in the concrete "evidence" or "argument" of the form. (Here "form" and "content" would be reversible - and Peirce's category of "thirdness" or meaning/law would play the role of structure or completion - the "formal feeling"). This is probably already being done by several poets. And these new new formalists are probably breaking hearts just like the old ones. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:31:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Billy Whitelaw 2B wall, we've talked about that Big League Poets a while back. it's by Mikhail Horowitz, and someone just sent me a copy in response to my enthusiasm. --md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:31:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) this is maria --hi annie! (we were grad school colleagues, she was my "apprentice" teacher in freshman english, that wonderful institutionalizing-discursive institution of stanford). i don't have much to say on the subject of form, except to ask why it is such an emotional/intellectual issue in poetics circles. this is not a rhetorical question --what's at stake in the "form" issue? love, maria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:06:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: all sonnets by Hal Sirowitz First of all, Bernadette Mayer does not preserve the codified length of a sonnet (14 lines) consistently throughout her book _The Sonnets_. Some go 16. Second of all, To call all repetition of a given word chant is to collapse In a heap the distinctions between jazz and plainsong, Light poems and sleeping with women. Third of all, I'm hearing all these echoes of the Alfred Corn discussion is anyone else. A sonnet Is not sitting down and writing some metronomically correct thing. And neither am I. There's usually a turn in a sonnet but all I hear is one side of the argument. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: pick ONE >>4. I'm going to sit write down and right myself a letter (pick ONE: >>abcdefghijklmnopqstuvwxyz) > >Obviously some sort of trick deck, though I don't get the point of the trick. > >Or perhaps an homage to WCW. Close. This is clearly an homage to Tony Door, expositor of the early history of the Commutative Function of the Alphabet poets (CFAP, no equal signs). --J (for metric's sake) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:57:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: formal/continuum addendum Another thought on Annie Finch's post : seems like the "search for new forms" would want to take chaos theory into account. Here's CS Peirce in 1884, a century before chaos theory arrived: "You have all heard of the dissipation of energy. It is found that in all transformations of energy a part is converted into heat and heat is always tending to equalize its temperature. The consequence is that the energy of the universe is tending by virtue of its necessary laws toward a death of the universe in which there shall be no force but heat and the temperature everywhere the same. We may say that we know enough of the forces at work in the universe to know that there is none which can counteract this tendency away from every definite end but death. But although no force can counteract this tendency, chance may and will have the opposite influence. Force is in the long run dissipative; chance is in the long run concentrative. The dissipation of energy by the regular law of nature is by those very laws accompanied by circumstances more and more favorable to its reconcentration by chance. There must therefore be a point at which the two tendencies are balanced and that is no doubt the actual condition of the whole universe at the present time." Rigid formal structures in poetry might be considered analogues of entropy as Peirce describes it above; I have certainly found in my own writing that forms increase the opportunities for chance combinations. Perhaps the "finished", literary forms such as the sonnet are, again, chance recombinations expressing social entropy of some kind. The difficulty is finding a real home in forms, rather than a sense of school project or alienated rhetorical hat-trick. Maybe form is like the rundown tenement occupied by squatter architect-gardeners, where entropy becomes possibility. Or, in Mandelstam's words, "classicism is revolution", and "tall grass is growing in the streets of St. Petersburg". - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:29:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 13 May 1996 09:31:10 -0400 from Re the form fuss: from this morning's reading some instances to ponder: Reference this is the poem from which i quote 'this is the poem from which i quote' Sunday Draught studying zymology, and in particular zymurgy watching the zymogenesis of the zymogens counting the zygospores and zygotes after zygosis zymosis! quick, the zymometer! Two from a page of Tom Raworth's _Tottering State_ Form is a kind of quotation? What's at stake is what's being quoted and how? What's not "at stake" is the "temperamental disinclination among many 'innovative' poets to use regularly repeating forms" but rather what "counts" as "linguistic elements"--e.g., the sentence (the period), the phrase, the phoneme, a "regular" propensity for the ampersand, his relentless ability to work the word "blue" into every line, your sudden happenstance decision to print every poem in the last half of the book in the shape of a hippogriff? Form of the utterance, form of the text? Form of the noise, form of the doodle? Form of the question "What form is that?" Form of the frame framing fractious fomenting re form? best to all from here where the flowers babel, Keith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 08:58:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Jonas Jones In-Reply-To: <199605130407.AAA26348@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Maria -- You already have it, to all intents and purposes -- I gave a talk based on the longish chapter I mailed you a couple years back, supplemented with reading from some unpublished letters & poems -- That Jonas chap. will appear in another book from U of Georgia Press -- however, since said book won't appear for more than a year yet -- I am ready to accept invites to blabber from said chapter here & there! and will, of course, share copies of this uncorrected ms. with folk writing on Jonas -- Meanwhile -- Please note that new issue of _House Organ_ has poem by Russell Atkins, who is not heard from that often these days -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "c.g. guertin" Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: On Mon, 13 May 1996, Keith Tuma wrote: > Form is a kind of quotation? What's at stake is what's being quoted and how? > What's not "at stake" is the "temperamental disinclination among many > 'innovative' poets to use regularly repeating forms" but rather what "counts" > as "linguistic elements"--e.g., the sentence (the period), the phrase, the > phoneme, a "regular" propensity for the ampersand, his relentless ability to > work the word "blue" into every line, your sudden happenstance decision to > print every poem in the last half of the book in the shape of a hippogriff? > Form of the utterance, form of the text? Form of the noise, form of the > doodle? Form of the question "What form is that?" Form of the frame framing > fractious fomenting re form? > By this definition, would Daphne Marlatt's use of space/silence as a part of the alphabet of her poetic form be a regular repeating form...or is it no form at all? Carolyn Guertin cguertin@julian.uwo.ca "One's life is particularly one's own when one has invented it" -- Djuna Barnes, Nightwood ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: pick ONE Comments: cc: jdavis@PANIX.COM Jordan - Perhaps I was too oblique. If you use CFAP on the alphabet cited below, you'll end up with a lipogram. One has already been picked from this not so fresh deck. - H >>>4. I'm going to sit write down and right myself a letter (pick ONE: >>>abcdefghijklmnopqstuvwxyz) >> >>Obviously some sort of trick deck, though I don't get the point of the trick. >> >>Or perhaps an homage to WCW. > > >Close. This is clearly an homage to Tony Door, expositor of the early >history of the Commutative Function of the Alphabet poets (CFAP, no equal >signs). --J (for metric's sake) Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:17:08 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: formal continuum Dear Annie Finch, It seems apparent from having viewed this discussion about the AWP piece for the last few months that your idea of the "regular formal" includes a specific metric rhythm and that this rhythm is observed only in terms of the line it occurs within. These limitations directly result in your observation of not having seen "a truly innovative form" with your search. Had I the same constraints would have surmised the same conclusion. When the formalized criteria is widened in dimensions to include a work that is written in series, the first thing one notices from the "irregular" form (as you termed it) is what elements work toward regularizing the rest of the piece. Within a masterwork, one finds that the defining elements of regularities rest within the axiom and create a core for a piece of work to be understood. When repetition occurs in large series of pieces, it is no longer the structure of the language element which one concerns themselves with but rather what center does this series revolve around and refine through its innaccuracies and reververations to the evolving form. I would like to take the epistolary form as an example. Rather than fitting your definition of a strict metrical form, these types of pieces rely upon the tone of the lyric as a methodology to establish what contitutes the form. The material often focuses on what cannot be said to another in person because of the inaccuracies within the referent of the body, and some closing of the past through the event of the letter. That Heloise could not reach her emotions for Abelard until the bodies were no longer a signifier-chain which diffused or confused meaning. That syntactical logic for Cicero only had a direct correlation to the page and could not be constructed otherwise. That Paul could not tell the Corinthians what to do in person. When reading any of these in series one relies upon the understanding of tone and timber, coveyed by the syllables and syntax more than the metrical structure of the piece. While mono-syllabics may induce a palipitation for revolution in a letter from Neruda or a staccato of laughter from Pope, it is discerning the tone of the speaker which is the form. These ideas themselves have went through further transliterations as one could experience through the recent work of Alice Notley's Descent of Alette where the tone of the voice itself is nearly impossible to discern, thereby adding to the epic and epistilary form through a new conveyance of voice. I think your decision to avoid the "informal poetries" severely limits your capacity for exhumation of past forms and for present discoveries and do hope that some of the words on this list will be conducive for challenging your opion as expressed in the AWP article. Be Well David Baratier dave.baratier@mosby.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: pick ONE Comments: To: Herb Levy Yah--R for Rothschild. (Duglas Rothschild, aka Tony Door) but then I always was bad at reading comprehension.. --Jd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:59:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 13 May 1996 10:29:50 EST from On Mon, 13 May 1996 10:29:50 EST Keith Tuma said: > >studying zymology, and in particular zymurgy >watching the zymogenesis of the zymogens >counting the zygospores and zygotes after zygosis > >zymosis! quick, the zymometer! By gum, this is not science. This is zymnastics. Ergo: poetics. Fourfold zymnergy, Dr. Livingstone, I presume. pi + paw(2) = pi/face. Elementary. - Dr. Gesund Heit, Ph=d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:36:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Object 6/ DC Reading Sunday, May 19th @ 3 PM Jennifer Moxley & Lisa Jarnot @ DCAC 2438 18th St NW ph 202 462 7833 (near 18th & Columbia) (it's 3 bucks) I am even more reccomendatious than usual w/ regard to this reading. Ya'll come. Also: Just published: _Object 6_ featuring Jennifer Moxley. Includes 17 pages of her work. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Also 8 pages from Jarnot's "Sea Lyrics", Toscano, Sher, Stefans, Farrell, Lawrence, Kovac, Keckler, Hale, cover art & portfolio by Richard Baker. Make checks payable to Robert Fitterman. $7 per copy, $12 two issue subscription. _Object_, 7-13 Washington Square North #47B, NYC, NY 10003. The credits: DCAC series curated by Heather Fuller & Joe Ross Object 6 edited by Robert Fitterman Thank you. The end. etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:05:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Norris Organization: University of Maine Subject: Somewhere Across the Border The second issue of Somewhere Across the Border, a Canadian Interactive Poetry magazine, is now available for viewing at www.letelier.com/sab/sab.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:21:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Cope's Stein/Rod? Gwyn? Comments: To: Jennifer Ashton Sorry it's taken me so long to thank you for these leads--I've been horribly lax about e-mail for awhile, tackling finals, attending a conference, writing a book proposal ...thanks very much. I tracked down the Stimpson & it *is* interesting...anyway, pleased to meet you backchannel. Are you a prof or student at Johns Hopkins? I'm starting an MFA at George Mason in the fall, pretty close... em At 08:25 PM 5/2/96 -0400, Jennifer Ashton wrote: >I tried to post an answer to your query about transgender criticism on >Stein once before and for some reason my post never appeared. I hope >this works. There are a couple of earlier accounts that you might >consult, if nothing else just to see how much more thinking still needs >to be done on this subject. A couple of not-so-recent essays by >Catherine Stimpson are "Getrice/Altrude: Stein, Toklas, and the Paradox >of the Happy Marriage" and another for which I am missing the title, but >I know the phrase "Lesbian Lie" or "Lies" is in there somewhere. Also, >you might look at "A Signature of Lesbian Autobiography" by Leigh >Gilmore, also not-so-recent. > >Jennifer Ashton >Johns Hopkins University >ashto_j@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:26:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: sorry folks... about that mail meant for Jennifer Ashton & sent to everyone. I didn't see the "CC:." If I could demurely blush, I'd demurely blush. em ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:52:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tod Thilleman Subject: Re: Poetry New York Issue #8 PNY #8 out now, featuring: textimages by Owen Smith, poetry by, Karen Alkalay-Gut, Alicia Askenase, Jane Augustine, Kenneth Bernard, Charles Bernstein, Charles Borkhuis, Joseph Brodsky, Dionisio Canas, Robert Carnavale, David Caskey, Alex Cigale, Billy Collins, Joseph Conte, Bernie Earley, George Economou, Ted Enslin, Stephen Ellis, Daniel Gabriel, Karl Gartung, Peter Haaren, Ronald Johnson, Richard Kostelanetz, Jerry Mazza, Robert McDowell, Hermine Meinhard, Mickey Moon, Inna Ososkov, Rochelle Owens, Pam Rehm, Elio Schneeman, Hugh Seidman, Daniela Serowinski, Lee Slonimsky, Miriam Solan, Adam Sorkin, Peter Spiro, Michael Stephens, Madeline Tiger, Robert Timm, Eugene Van Itterbeek, Mark Wallace, Jacqueline Waters, Bruce Weigl, Walter Whitehead, Alyce Wilson. E-mail for issue ($7 upon receipt) tunguska@tribeca.ios.com May 18th, this Saturday, we will be having a reading featuring some of the contributors, at the new Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard Street, Manhattan. 2 to 5 o'clock. Feel free to drop by and chat (downstairs bar) we'll have back issues on sale trying to raise funds like they say for the cause! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:16:15 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT's annual soiree Hi, this is Dodie Bellamy. The board of Small Press Traffic asked me to post the following: U.S. Poet Laureate to be honored by San Francisco's Small Press Traffic Robert Hass, Poet Laureate of the United States, will be among the guests honored at Small Press Traffic's annual Soir=E9e benefit on June 2, 1996. Th= e fundraising event celebrates SPT's recent move of its Literary Arts Center to New College of California at 777 Valencia in San Francisco. A number of the Bay Area's important literary figures will be in attendance, including Francisco X. Alarc=F3n (Lenguas Sueltas Poemas), Barbara Guest (Fair Realism), Thom Gunn (The Man with Night Sweats), Ginu Kamani (Junglee Girl) and Janice Mirikitani (Shedding Silence). In addition, there will be an auction of signed manuscript pages by the above mentioned writers as well as signed works of William S. Burroughs, Ted Berrigan, Dorothy Allison, Richard North Patterson and others. Food and beverages will be provided, plus music by Megan Bierman on the tenor saxophone. The Sunday event will be held from 4:00 to 7:00 p.m. at the San Francisco home of Edith Jenkins. Parking will be available. A tax-deductible donation of $40-$60 is requested. Call (415) 437-3454 for more information and reservations. Small Press Traffic was founded in 1974 by a group of writers and individuals who saw the need for an outlet for new and experimental writers and small press publications. From being primarily a bookstore, Small Press Traffic has evolved into a presenting organization sponsoring writing workshops and readings throughout the year, with special attention to emerging writers. Small Press Traffic's new home at New College will also allow the organization to establish a writing/publishing resource library open to the public. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 15:10:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Sun&Moon sale Sorry, everyone. This is for Douglas Messerli but i can't get through backchannel. yes please send me the three issues of Ribot at $4 each, plus p&p. >At 10:04 AM 5/7/96 -0700, you wrote: >>Sun & Moon Press announces some very special sales for >>participants in the Poetry List: >> >>RIBOT 1, 2 and 3 (regularly $9.95 an issue, for $4.00 >>an issue) >> >>Ribot, edited by Paul Vangelisti, has become one of the >>most significant new poetry magazines. >> >>Issue 1 contains new work by Dennis Phillips, Nathaniel >>Tarn, Todd Baron, Martha Ronk, Norma Cole, Enzo Cucchi, >>Amelia Rosselli, Amiri Baraka, Adriano Spatola, Gottlieb >>Kasper, Douglas Messerli, and Luigi Ballerini >> >>$4.00 >> >> >>Issue 2 contains work by Sam Eisenstein, Mac Wellman, Amiri Baraka, >>Frank Chin, Ray DiPalma, Nick Piombino, Dennis Phillips, >>Robert Crosson, Adonis, Guy Bennett, Todd Baron, Michael >>Clinton, Jerry Rothenbergh, Diane Ward, Martha Ronk, Leland >>Hickman, Douglas Messerli, and George Herms >> >>$4.00 >> >>Issue 3 has new writing by Ameila Rosselli, Bruce Andrews, Ray >>DiPalma, Charles Bernstein, Felisberto Hernandez, Leslie >>Scalapino, Norma Cole, Dennis Phillips, Rodrigo Toscano, >>Will Alexander, Gottlieb Kasper, Nick Piombino, Cristina Peri >>Rossi, Sheila Murphy, Spencer Selby, Marshall Reese, >>Martha Ronk, Fernando Sorrentino, and many others. >> >>$4.00 >> >> >>Sun & Moon is also offering, for a special, limited time, >>FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CENTURY: A NEW AMERICAN POETRY >>1960-1990 >> >>very slightly damaged copies (corners slightly bent) for only >>$5.00; the regular price is $29.95. >> >>All orders are the quoted price plus $1.00 shipping and handling. >> >>Please order from our website: http://www.sunmoon.com >> >>or through our E-mail page: djmess@sunmoon.com >> >>We will bill you. >>Thanks, Douglas Messerli >> >> > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:02:58 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) Comments: To: KWTUMA@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu Keith, Thank you, and about time. If the question of where our poetics might go from here--which is surely a preoccupation of Mark's, but also a question vital to life of my interest in the list--is put in the terms of where once it was the only answer usefully elicited is an insistence on where, at least, it for the moment is. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 00:27:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Perez Subject: antlers picked up the "Breccia" collection by Pierre Joris last week and was wondering if anyone out there knows where I could get the full-text version of the first poem in the collection "Antlers." Information about the publisher, etc. would be much appreciated. thanks James Perez jmp2p@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 07:07:10 -0400 Reply-To: knimmo@ic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kurt Nimmo Subject: poetry on the net > "A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if the > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular appeal > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio paz, > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands who > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical that lovers > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > It would seem, unfortunately, that Milosz et al do not understand the medium. People who would have never cracked a book of poetry are now reading it on the internet. A traditionally printed magazine of poetry may be able to reach only a few hundred people -- but a webzine of the same can reach thousands. Granted, much of the poetry out there on the internet is BAD... but this wasn't the question. As for "serious" poetry -- who makes the determination? If I recall correctly, Czeslaw Milosz is featured on a web site... As for the "low popular appeal of poetry"... "To a poor reader," Laurence Perrine wrote in _Literature: Structure, Sound, and Sense_, "poetry will often seem dull and boring, a fancy way of writing something that could be said more simply. So might a colorblind man deny that there is such a thing as color." I'd have to say it is not a matter of "popular appeal," but rather the state of literacy in this nation. If the average person shuns reading a newspaper, can you expect him/her to read poetry? Kurt Nimmo ========== http://ic.net/~knimmo/png.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:13:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: > Is it possible that regular forms are like the letters of the > alphabet--you can do things with them that are new, but they themselves are > basically simple tools, hard to improve on, Dr. Seuss's On Beyond Zebra > notwithstanding? If this is true, getting that fact out into the open > would certainly simplify the field of poetics at the formal end of the > continuum. Just to contribute to this discussion a bit: I think the analogy to the alphabet *complicates* rather than simplfies formal discussions. I have two questions: 1) would a poem count for you as regular form if it used "conspicuous repetition" at the alphabetic level? (Say a poem is lineated around the principle of "three f's per line." Is the letter an "element of language" like the phoneme? 2) are new letters really that unlikely? A friend of mine is carving lithograph blocks into an alphabet for printing his poems. He's adding a few new letters for good measure (pardon the pun). Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:54:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: continuum (ht_lit & poetics coincide in xanadu) The copyrighted alphabet although apparently a foolish issue becomes serious when transclusion or the enforcement of copyright on the internet is discussed. Transclusion is a form of 'sideways publishing' in which documents are maintained permanently in a sort of electronic alexandria or 'xanadu' as its inventor Ted Nelson calls it. Once published a bit of text may be read by anyone for a copyright fee measured in nanodollars. Everyone may read all documents and there is no trace, no record of the payment and so no record of who has read what. A document such as 'The Waste Land' that incorporates other texts may do so by linking to those other texts. The copyright on samples is maintained in this system, the trademark of which is 'eternal-flaming-x'. The fear (if I understand this system and there is a strong chance I do not) was that someone would (as domain speculators had, buying up licenses to obviously profitable names like bigmac or usa) copyright the alphabet, collecting microscopic royalties on every text published in perpetuity. Bob Holman's alphabet presumes a world in which the 'r' has been claimed. The plural of being? or the brand of Bob's ranch. We all have letters we forego. This letter goes out three days too soon. --Jdn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:14:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Deadline and Announcement Dates Complete application packages must be postmarked no later than May 17, 1996. All poetry fellowship applicants must send the required materials in one package to: Information Management Division, Rm 815 Fellowships for Creative Writers: Poetry National Endowment for the Arts Nancy Hanks Center 1100 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington DC 20506-0001 (Overnight mail zip code: 20004) Fellowships for Creative Writers are $20,000. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:40:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Deadline and Announcement Dates In-Reply-To: from "Jordan Davis" at May 14, 96 11:14:35 am Hey Jordan, what are the required materials? I assume they include application forms & the like that it's too late to get before the deadline... Jordan Davis wrote: > > Complete application packages must be postmarked no later than May 17, 1996. > All poetry fellowship applicants must send the required materials in one > package to: > > Information Management Division, Rm 815 > Fellowships for Creative Writers: Poetry > National Endowment for the Arts > Nancy Hanks Center > 1100 Pennsylvania Ave NW > Washington DC 20506-0001 (Overnight mail zip code: 20004) > > Fellowships for Creative Writers are $20,000. > -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:05:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: <199605140409.AAA21073@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> The post Mark forwarded seemed simultaneously procrustean & too general -- given the defintions offered, the only work that wd. be recognized as a new form wd. seem to be a work that invented something new to repeat -- if I read this forward aright -- which wd. render all those delightful new forms dreamed up by our frioends the OULIPIANS old hat -- as they're always counting syllables, or letters, or stresses, or something else that somebody else had already counted???? or, to go really mainstream, that wd. make Hollander's thirteeners just the same old same old, just like MacLow after all! Is there room for "footprintinsm" among these old forms? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:30:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 14 May 1996 11:05:09 -0700 from On Tue, 14 May 1996 11:05:09 -0700 Aldon L. Nielsen said: >The post Mark forwarded seemed simultaneously procrustean & too general >-- given the defintions offered, the only work that wd. be recognized as >a new form wd. seem to be a work that invented something new to repeat -- >if I read this forward aright -- which wd. render all those delightful >new forms dreamed up by our frioends the OULIPIANS old hat -- as they're >always counting syllables, or letters, or stresses, or something else >that somebody else had already counted???? But why are some forms "traditional"? Is it worth making a distinction (I'm not saying a value judgement) between forms that are old - have been around - and 20th century forms in the "tradition of invention"? Does it have something to do with "occasion" - that forms like the sonnet began as chance developments out of various entropies of cultural demand - or occasions? The occasion of 20th century forms is often simply the occasion of their making - or the occasion of freedom from occasions (demands). Is there a difference between the multitude of whimsical wheeled contraptions and the major occasions for travel (car, bike, stroller)? In looking for new forms (if this is not a dead goose chase) as opposed to forms of "the new" should we open our eyes to what "occasion" might mean today in a social/cultural sense (it might be very different from past meanings). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:52:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes Of course, it might be worth remembering that the title is lifted from the first line of a Dickinson poem... AFTER GREAT PAIN, a formal FINCH comes.... Is the Dickinson poem itself a "traditional" form? After all, it is one of those Dickinson poems that does not really fit the "amazing grace"/"heartbreak hotel"/"yellow ribbon of texas"/ "gates of eden" pattern-- and so I am also interested in the co-optation of Dickinson as a formalist (which i distrust at least as much as the co-optation of Dickinson by the Grenier types---you know "the message is the handwriting"....) cs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:17:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 14 May 1996 14:52:14 -0500 from On Tue, 14 May 1996 14:52:14 -0500 Chris Stroffolino said: > Of course, it might be worth remembering that the title is lifted > from the first line of a Dickinson poem... > AFTER GREAT PAIN, a formal FINCH comes.... > Is the Dickinson poem itself a "traditional" form? Then we have to also remember that after great hors d'oeuvres an informal Stroffolino comes... but some poets are themselves the occasion for poetry, and form follows incarnation as swallow follows finch. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:35:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: <01I4P77MYKCY8Y6U78@cnsvax.albany.edu> from "Chris Stroffolino" at May 14, 96 02:52:14 pm According to my aviary sources, Dickinson's "finch" in fact turned out to be a relatively exotic sparrow (or do I have that backwards?) -- & somewhere I read that all of her poems can be recited in the meter & tune of "Train in Vain" (or maybe "El Paso" but only with Weir! singing). -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: isn't it more like "after great form a painful feeling comes?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 07:57:47 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: formal continuum Good reply David Baratier. I like: "inaccuracies and reververations" Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 08:21:33 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) I am surprised at the interest in "counting" as form. Form is plainly what anyone is or is not in, when they write--- on a good day, so to speak --- when things go right --- as with any other sport. Counting is no more a measure of success in writing than checking out the golden mean and other similar proportional divisions in a painting is a meausre of anything except the goofiness of the measurer. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 17:03:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Poetic Briefs This is for Jeff Hansen I think. I just got PB#20, thanks Elizabeth Burns & Jeff. Jeff, How much are subscriptions again? There was no information on it in the issue; also, I wonder if I could get a copy of PB#18, on Clark Coolidge, as well as descriptions of other back issues if available. Thanks. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:57:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: LIFT chapbooks (announcement) Four chapbooks from LIFT in Somerville, MA have been recently published: The Journals of The Man Who Kept Bees, by Michael Franco At Last Round Up, by T.J. Anderson Immediate Orgy and Audit, by Ange Mlinko Timeserver, by Nick Lawrence The books are individually designed, saddle-stiched, and printed on quality paper and cover stock. Cover images by Ben E. Watkins, Katha Seidman and Molly Torra. The set sells for $24.00 plus $3.00 for postage. Make checks payable to Joseph Torra and send your order to lift 10 REAR Oxford Street Somerville, MA 02143 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 19:07:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes At 02:52 PM 5/14/96 -0500, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >After all, it is one of those Dickinson poems that does not really >fit the "amazing grace"/"heartbreak hotel" /"yellow ribbon of texas"/ <------ribbon is a rose is a ...a si esor a si esor No, Gwyn; it's After Great Pain, a Semi-formal Dress... I don't think anyone's tackled Maria's raised issue: what's at stake with the form question? As one who's (voluntarily) written both quertzblatz stuff & heroic couplets in the past year, I'm not sure I can answer...I haven't "found my [one] voice" as They so deeply encourage--I'm not even out looking--but sowing my wild forms (or nonforms, as Annie has it), & yeah, interested in more talk of stakes, emily ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 19:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes yeah, gwyn, it is a vicious circle (Orc cycle?) too often... now mr. golumbia has got train in vain going buzzing in my ears (i heard a fly ... buzz when i died ...) the form is the FUNERAL in "I felt a funeral in my brain" (and yes. Ms. Finch I could write a formal essay backing this up but I think I'll wait for pain....in vain?) cs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 19:36:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 15 May 1996 08:21:33 GMT+1300 from Hey Tony, Re:form (again). Who's talking about counting? I said I was curious about what counts (i. e. what so-called "linguistic elements" "matter") when one talks about "form" (from outside the process, as a critic, someone chomping on Plato's dream-bit, etc.) Quotes around "counting" just pun-fun. But I'm curious--given your definition of form as something you're in or not (and you're always in fine form, Tony)--when would you know or say or guess someone or something is "in form"? Let's say--since we're almost talking about it--something a number of people have agreed to call a poem? As for what's at stake (not your question) more questions from me: Is there really anyone out there who would not like to see a proliferation of forms? Why would one want to limit or legislate forms? And someone once wrote that "Inflexible standardization is the arteriosclerosis of language." Who would argue with that in this for(u)m? But that's not what Annie Finch is arguing anyway (is it Annie?). I take it that she's saying something closer to what Nathaniel Tarn once wrote (in "The Issue of 'New Forms'"): "There are a limited number of topics around which our critical arguments revolve over and over again--as if they were stuck in some monstrous groove. One of them is the question of new forms--as if we were never to realize that, in essence, these forms were extraordinarily limited. . ." [He then goes on to talk of "content.' No doubt many would take issue with Tarn's essay.] Anyway, that's what I took to be "at stake" in Annie Finch's remarks (I may be wrong.) To respond more directly to Maria D, I'd guess that what's most often "at stake" in these debates about "form" is "the politics of poetic form"--which is of course a very big topic I ain't agonna get into here. Or, thinking of George B and Sam B, one might just ask how does one go on? Or perhaps it's just how or why I go on right now when the Bulls and Knicks have already tipped off? Dribble dribble, keith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 21:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Alice Notley's _The Descent of Alette_ In-Reply-To: "Everyone must" "rush out" "immediately & get" "for themselves" "a copy of Alice Notley's" "_The Descent of Alette_" "not only because" ["it pertains" "to these discussions" "we have been having" "of form & not-form" ["but because "it's the real thing" "no apologies" "to Coca-Cola" "and you need it" Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 01:04:26 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: quertzblatz Pardon my ignorance, but... I've seen the word "quertzblatz" (?sp) used on this list a few times, and can guess from context that it means something similar to "experimental", but I can't find a definition anywhere. Can anyone help with meaning, etymology &c? Thanks, Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 21:17:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Pereira Subject: The Death Of Larry Levis Let me add my distress at this news. Larry was a dear friend...we shared Fresno and Iowa City along with lots of good people. Now, we lose another one. I have added a WAV file of Larry reading from a 1984 Fresno appearance to my WEB page. I hope his friends and the lovers of his work will find it calming. Larry would be amused by all the attention, I think, but he was one of the good guys. The address is: http://home.aol.com/LITSAM The sound file is at the very end of the page. Let me know what you think. Sam ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:17:06 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) in form? in the work worth publishing (from the writer's point of view): off form, when the work won't go right. I'm not interested in conventional structures -- that's the term -- so much as genres of discourse, occasions and audiences. "Form" is in my mind more a word for pre-given structures, hence the tendency for formalists to want to count things in them, to make sure that they are all there and in the right order. Isn't the problem of pre-given forms to do with the way that any precipitation of sense is apt to overflow or negate such things of necessity. I'm hooked on the "never more than" of the Creeley sentence...never mjore than an exdtension of content, in the sense of wanting to say something that takes form as it goes. Form, then, is a process of forming, a verb rather than a noun -- hence my sense of form as being in or on form as one writes. But this is familiar to many on this list I'm sure as Olsonian or Creelesque. Isn't the fifties poetics of Olson set up much in opposition to a fomalism a correctness of conventional verse patterns or structures? Tell me if I'm way off track.. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 22:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: quertzblatz t.b. (which does not stand for teburculosis and now that i write this i'm sorry i even brought it up but it was fun while it lasted) asked: >I've seen the word "quertzblatz" (?sp) used on this list a few times, and can >guess from context that it means something similar to "experimental", but I >can't find a definition anywhere. Can anyone help with meaning, etymology &c? mayhaps gwyn would like to explain quertzblatz some more, i think she coined it, or at least introduced it to the list, and i think jordan uses it more than anyone else, so one might hope he know's what he's saying :-). one of the things i like about the word is that it doesn't feel like it's really defined yet. i take it's meaning to be something just a little left of 'experimental', less stale. and like i've said before, it's got a q in it, can't beat a good word with a q in it. extra points in scrabble. >Pardon my ignorance, but... no buts about it, bless everyone's ignorance. back to the *old* keyboard. (paperwork to be typed) eryque ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:56:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: querzblatz In-Reply-To: <199605150305.XAA03518@shell.acmenet.net> My dictionary, Eryque, supplies only one t for querzblatz. It cites Gwyn McVay. As I've said before, though, I don't really know the meanings of these words that I seem to need to keep saying. All I can tell from the contexts in which I've used this word is that it seems to be connected to the procedures of vast avant-gardes without having noisome parameanings. Correction: this seems to be somebody else's dictionary. On a different topic: can somebody tell me what the point of all this poetry writing is? I remember hearing something about 'the love of the good' and I wonder if anybody else heard this thing more clearly, and could run an ideology check on it for me. Thanks! Jordan PS Chris S uses querzblatz more often than I do. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:14:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane Marie Ward Subject: Re: poetry on the net In-Reply-To: <3198695E.2043@mail.ic.net> On Tue, 14 May 1996, Kurt Nimmo wrote: > It would seem, unfortunately, that Milosz et al do not understand > the medium. People who would have never cracked a book of poetry are > now reading it on the internet. A traditionally printed magazine of Amen! This posting coincides with a very interesting meeting which I attended recently where I witnessed those who believed in the viability of the Internet as a research tool, a method of preserving and disseminating information trying to coerce/convince/assuage the hesitations of others to make a concerted step to move forward and embrace the Internet in a Library/Research atmosphere (and I will add some of the fears were justifiable and raised good questions which will need good solutions) I had myself shunned computers a la Kurt Vonnegut - and saw DHLawrence's wisdom when he wrote in Studies in Classic American Literature "the machine is the greater neuter...in the end it emasculates us all" -- But there is undeniably an impact being made through the progressive spirit of those who embrace the Internet as a tool to explore/instruct/ and enhance the acquisition of knowledge and I whole-heartedly embrace these positive aspects: the Internet has so many advantages for poets - 1)one is not subject to a publisher- one is free to explore/experiment 2) even if the poetry is not refined/honed, the poet will be exposed to more poetry through his/her interest in the subject by doing a simple Net search - thus almost self-teaching, or at least refining taste by being introduced to new styles and perhaps a different approach. 3) Poetry may be in popular decline now - but the younger generation which is being raised in this paradgim will appreciate creativity & the freedom of the Net and perhaps poetry will see a resurgence and 4) small press publishers indie book sellers will benefit in the long run because people will develop a taste for certain authors and may seek out to own a copy. 5)New marriages of poetry and art and sound will occur, and the public will be exposed to them rather than waiting for PBS to produce a series ; 6.) the hypertextual poem has been born opeing up new routes of reading, different levels of meaning - for example Ken Sherwood and Alexis Kirke and others are experimenting with hypertextual poems (take a look at the author section of the EPC) -- 7)In addition to that Loss Glazier has crafted a unique Poetry resource for poets/researchers etc -- the exposure poets receive (free to both poet and audience -- plus the audience is global) is remarkable and cannot be duplicated in print. Nobel Prize winners may question its viability, but we should not allow that to shadow any of the progress being made -- There will always be a struggle between those whose arms are folded and those who run to embrace. (Personally I still prefer to read a book - but the value found on a computer screen connected to the world is all too seductive.) > If I recall correctly, Czeslaw Milosz is featured on a web site... It is at http://sunsite.unc.edu/dykki/poetry/milosz/ -- it is a very impressive site complete with audio text of him reading in English & Polish. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Diane M. Ward dward@acsu.buffalo.edu State University of New York at Buffalo THE AESTHETE'S LIST : http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dward/ "I dreamt I dwelt in marble halls, and woke to found it true, I wasn't meant for an age like this, Was Smith, Was Jones, Were you?" -- George Orwell. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:31:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: querzblatz >and I wonder if anybody else heard this thing more clearly, and could >run an ideology check on it for me. sorry, not me. i'm shoulder deep in final papers (wilt chamberlain's sholders mind you) and M$ word doesn't have that function built in. though i'm sure if we asked bill gates he'd say that we just hadn't found all the features yet. eryque ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 01:00:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes Comments: cc: finchar@muohio.edu Re "what's at stake" in the formal question. I tend to think Hejinian's "The Rejection of Closure" a place to start. Rasula's _Wax Museum_ pretty good for recent history, though I think Berrigan, Mayer, etc. deserve more than footnote. Cage's _Silence_ also something to be known. I tend to think that the terms open & closed, tho often used cavalierly w/ regard to form, do, in the end, have descriptive meaning. Personally, I prefer the open. Gwyn mentioned Notley-- heard her read at St. Mark's last week, from _Alette_ and other stuff. Very engaging. Must say I was disappointed in her essay in _Disembodied Poetics_ -- equating "literary theory" with "hipness." & this-- ". . . poetry has become more & more intellectual & specialized, has become words." This is essentially an attack upon & dismissal of most of what I consider the most interesting work done since the early seventies from a poet I consider extremely complex and interesting. Her argument is essentially for a return to the allegorical as a source. Which I don't dismiss-- it can work, obvious. Read Blake. Joris & Rothenberg's choice of Blake to open their anthology is relevant here I think. It's a matter of the pressure of attention brought to the process of composition-- Blake's powerfully allegorical but madly satisfyingly OPEN as well, I believe. A pretty hip lit theorist in his way. Two arguments for open form: "Truth is a contrivance based on opinion which is always learned." --Kathy Acker & "Both belief and denial throw existence into question." --Carla Harryman Thing is, it's open, form, whether you think it is or not. So, work that knows that, starts with that, I think, has a leg up. O'Hara, talking relative to the Beat interest in jazz as source for the work sd he preferred painting-- "painting is static and therefore tragic." But I think an interesting counter to that comes from Picasso (tho Duchamp sd similar)-- that "A painting goes on changing according to whoever is looking at it." That's the open, or part of it, I'm intending here. Duchamp said: "A work of art is always completed by the observer." --Rod Smith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 01:09:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Alice Notley's _The Descent of Alette_ Re _Descent of Alette_, which is now available from Penguin for $14.95. _Descent of Alette_ is also available in a book called _The Scarlet Cabinet_ which includes two other Notley books in their entirety as well as three books by Douglas Oliver. _The Scarlet Cabinet_ is also $14.95. This is similar to the Barnes & Noble versus independent argument. Call SPD at 510 549 3336 to order. Might I suggest picking up _Alice Ordered Me to Be Made_ or _At Night the States_ or the Talisman _Selected_ while you're at it. Rod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:23:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: <960515010020_300991141@emout12.mail.aol.com> this may come from sheer blissful ignorance but im having trouble distinguishing form from technique in this discussion, especially in light of tony greens comments. one can have fine technique and not be "in form". can one follow a form (?closed) with no technique? are form and technique identical, similar, or mutually exclusive? tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:40:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: <960515010020_300991141@emout12.mail.aol.com> On Wed, 15 May 1996, Rod Smith wrote: > Gwyn mentioned Notley-- heard her read at St. Mark's last week, from _Alette_ > and other stuff. Very engaging. > Must say I was disappointed in her essay in _Disembodied Poetics_ -- equating > "literary theory" with "hipness." > & this-- ". . . poetry has become more & more intellectual & specialized, has > become words." This is essentially an attack upon & dismissal of most of what > I consider the most interesting work done since the early seventies from a Clive Matson makes essentially the same point in _exquiste corse_ #57 "The sterile reading of Duncan's poetry by many of his peers displays the limits of literary culture. People may be so deadened that they cannot feel." Is closed form a barrier against feeling? Is open form a way of avoiding feeling? While this may seem oblique to the topic at hand, Ithink it's quite relevant and significant, as Rod goes on to note (from my reading of his post): > of attention brought to the process of composition-- Blake's powerfully > allegorical but madly satisfyingly OPEN as well, I believe. A pretty hip lit > theorist in his way. > > Two arguments for open form: > > "Truth is a contrivance based on opinion which is always learned." --Kathy > Acker > & > "Both belief and denial throw existence into question." > --Carla Harryman > > --Rod Smith > tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 07:05:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes John Cage is inevitably mentioned. He once said to me that after he had heard any piece of his more than once, it began to sound melodic! Eric Mottram's response when I told him this was that the human brain is inherently incapable of producing something which is formless. Which is why Cage didn't like improvisation; he said it was too predictable. John Whiting Diatribal Press London ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 08:39:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 15 May 1996 08:21:33 GMT+1300 from Re: Tony Green's post on counting - you'd be surprised how much mathematics there is in tennis (and Mondrian) (and Stravinsky) (and...) - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:17:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 15 May 1996 07:05:39 EDT from <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> On Wed, 15 May 1996 07:05:39 EDT John Whiting said: >John Cage is inevitably mentioned. He once said to me that after >he had heard any piece of his more than once, it began to sound >melodic! Eric Mottram's response when I told him this was that >the human brain is inherently incapable of producing something >which is formless. Which is why Cage didn't like improvisation; >he said it was too predictable. This is what I was getting at when I mentioned form as increasing possibilities for chance developments. Hey I got an idea - closed wear red shirts, open wear blue. then we'll know what's at stake and who's the good guys. Did anybody read what I wrote about form-occasions, or a trichotomy beyond the form/content binary politico-emotiono-football game, or form as entropy (rather than "funeral")? Do we have to trumpet the same old camps? Anybody home? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:43:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: ECchair.html [IMAGE] _________________________________________________________________ Timothy Leary, who has terminal cancer, is going to kill himself "live" on the Internet. How do we feel about it here at Exquisite Corpse? First, we are going to declare him the first Exquisite Corpse of the Millenium. Secondly, we commend him for inventing the new art of Public Self-Snuff, a performance art long anticipated. Thirdly, we look forward to the Internet Public Self-Snuff of thousands of lesser luminaries, to be followed surely by mass suicides. The Avantgarde, as we know, always ends up at Wal-Mart sooner or later. Fourthly, we congratulate ourselves on having been the first to propose the idea of the Net as an Afterlife. Now, we will not only have cemeteries in cyber-space but actual "live" suicides. We also proposed that the Net Afterlife is nature's way of thinning the affluent (who don't die fast enough) with the help of their own toys. (The poor will always die like they have, from poverty, diseases and anonymity). Fifthly, we salute Tim for taking the spotlight off Kevorkian who now becomes just an old-fashioned audience/assistant: Tim turns all of us into Kevorkians, who can voyeurize and abet. Sixthly, we remeber reading Leary's Psychedelic Prayers in a heightened state and finding them pretty humorous.We will certainly miss his Irish charm and verve. Surely he will make a splendid saint in the Great Bardo. Go, Tim. Check out what's inside Corpse #56. ________________________________________________________________________ HOME | SUBSCRIBE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:49:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: quertzblatz In-Reply-To: <96051501042597@met.co.nz> Tom Beard, "Querzblatz" (although "quertz-" is an acceptable variant spelling) has absolutely no meaning nor etymology whatsoever. I made it up. It is supposed to accomodate the poetries and poetics that words like "experimental," "avant-garde," "language," "innovative" (although that last may come closest) don't cover; I was tired of not having a word. It has Q and Z in it because those are the letters not on the telephone dial, and they sound cool. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:58:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Making fun of their names again Rod-- Interesting take on Notley's arg-- which I took to be 'sympathy for Tom Clark'-- tho to suggest-- that one read the already-on-the-threshold-of-readability 'Alette'-- in the unwieldy-past-the-bounds-of-post-medieval-time _Scarlet Cabinet_-- is to advise people NOT to read it, near as I can tell-- And I'm mighty non-plussed by the turn towards open/closed discussions-- Wasn't id Davit Shapiro who said-- 'poetry is not open or closed, poetry is a well'-- as in 'well,'-- and Henry-- there's counting in Mondrian but it's fibonacci counting-- or gauss counting-- or duke ellington counting-- which is a different count--three and two-- from ah-one-two-three-- Taggart's Bryars essay bugged me because I AGREED with it-- and didn't like being coopted to a GREATER spiritualism-- what is at stake in SPIRITUALISM-- that you have to propose-- in public notes-- a GREATER spiritualism-- and what is that recourse to authority, while I'm at it-- that quoting recent writers as scripture-- Jd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:27:19 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: a formal flinch I brought up "Descent of Alette" in conjunction with the form of the epistle as a way to open the subject inherent within the tenor of voice as a new form fostered by repetition. Not only does Alette's form bring forth a sense of breath simialr to the WCW foot, but also challenges and agrees with Wah's insistence of the oversized sentence fitting the capacity of new form through Notley's use of capitilization without punctuation. It seems that Annie's definition of form does not allow for discovery through anti-polarity of exposition, even when repetition is present. What I mean is if you have a poem without an "I" it's one of the features that demarcates its composition. That one can define through a process of exposure, of what is not held within the definition. Rod: If I remember correctly only a few sections of "Descent" are in the _Scarlet Cabinet_ not all. David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Ideology Check Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com, 73132.2550@compuserve.com, halem@tcplink.nrel.gov Jordan you wrote: >>can somebody tell me what the point of all this >>poetry writing is? I remember hearing something about 'the love of the >>good' and I wonder if anybody else heard this thing more clearly, and could >>run an ideology check on it for me. I think creely had the take: "the good" that darkness surrounds us and what can we do against it. Write poems for your friends to help keep them alive while you try to watch out where you're going reading the poems your friends write for you. Dharmok and Jilad at Tenagra. Ginsberg and Kerouac at the Sunflower. Kevin & Dug & Lisa in Nogo. I think that's the good, the bad and the lovely of it. Bill ps you're friends die anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:19:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: a formal flinch DB wrote, >> Rod: If I remember correctly only a few sections of "Descent" are in >> the _Scarlet Cabinet_ not all. I know the _Descent of Alette_ in _The Scarlet Cabinet_ begins & ends the same way the Pngn edition does. I'll check pg count when I get a chance, my impression is it's the same. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Lavagnino Subject: Re: continuum (ht_lit & poetics coincide in xanadu) In-Reply-To: (message from Jordan Davis on Tue, 14 May 1996 10:54:22 -0500) Jordan Davis writes... | The copyrighted alphabet | although apparently a foolish issue | becomes serious | when transclusion | or the enforcement of copyright on the internet | is discussed. | Transclusion is a form of 'sideways publishing' | in which documents are maintained permanently | in a sort of electronic alexandria | or 'xanadu' as its inventor Ted Nelson calls it. | Once published | a bit of text | may be read by anyone | for a copyright fee | measured in nanodollars. ... | The fear | (if I understand this system | and there is a strong chance I do not) | was that someone | would (as domain speculators had, | buying up licenses to obviously profitable | names like bigmac or usa) | copyright the alphabet, | collecting microscopic royalties | on every text published | in perpetuity. ... There's an aspect of Nelson's scheme (as he describes it in his wonderful book, Literary Machines) that is of great importance but doesn't get pushed enough these days, and which works against this phenomenon. Copyright owners today get control over who can use intellectual property, and the right to demand money for any use at rates that they set themselves in any way they please. In the Xanadu system, when you publish something, you have no control over its use, and although you get paid for any use you can't set the rates. Such a system would fix the major problem for anyone trying to publish something electronically today that draws on existing materials: the problem of getting permissions from a raft of copyright owners, and possibly having to pay absurdly high rates. The technical problems with electronic publishing are trivial by comparison. In the Xanadu system you wouldn't ask for permission, and you'd know right away what you'd be charged; someone like Bill Gates might buy up rights to all the querzblatz poetry in the Xanadu system, but it wouldn't affect its availability or the cost of reading it. The copyrighted alphabet is still a real issue that users of any Xanadu system would have to work out: Nelson gives an example of a new text within the system that would consist of an old one with the modification of a single word, so the idea that you could routinely claim rights to quite small bits of text does seem essential to the system. I also don't see anything in Literary Machines about the term of ownership---it does appear to be perpetual, which is a problem. (The book doesn't ever suggest that you could sell or transfer the rights to your texts in any way, and the system it describes is based on private contracts rather than copyright, but some way of transferring rights is probably inevitable.) Not that things appear to be heading in a xanalogical direction, in any case... John Lavagnino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:20:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: quertzblatz Gwyn McVay says: ". . . quertzblatz . . . has absolutely no meaning . . ." What? I was just writing an essay explaining that it was an expletive first used by a German philologist learning to touch- type. You have no right to say it is meaningless; it no longer belongs to you. As soon as a sound is uttered or an arrangement of letters is placed upon a page and others assign it a sense, it goes straight into God's Dictionary. Is "chortle" nonsense just because Lewis Caroll so intended? If you want to invent a meaningless word, best keep it to yourself. John Whiting Diatribal Press London ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: quertzblatz In-Reply-To: <960515152040_100707.731_EHU118-1@CompuServe.COM> John Whiting, I'm terribly sorry. You are quite right. Please forgive my mimsy brain; the air conditioners are out today, and it's brillig in here. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:01:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes Re Cage & improvisation-- actually he sd he changed his mind about improvisation after hearing Messian improvise on the organ. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:11:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes At 09:17 AM 5/15/96 EDT, Henry Gould wrote: Hey I got an idea - closed >wear red shirts, open wear blue. then we'll know what's at stake >and who's the good guys. ah, I think this is what I mean when I ask what's at stake--yes, of course I'm aware of the politics of open form & all that...& I assume HG is tongue-in-cheek here but he doesn't seem that far off...when I ask "what's at stake" what I mean is what HG gets at: why is the form issue such a threat that we end up debating closed v. open (& I'd go further--open lyric narrative v. open querzblatz) so much? And when Annie Finch says "what you're doing is not what I'd consider the creation of new forms"...what does the response to her show? In rejecting old capital F forms on political grounds, what I'm wondering is, why the apparent drive to gain acceptance in the same quarters those capital Fs haunt? To say, ok, my work is as valid & vigorously crafted as so-&-so's villanelle, so recognize that, Annie, let me in...but if we reject those old forms (& the criteria for judging & inhabiting them) why do we want to find a similar criteria for ourselves or Annie to judge open work...are those Forms forever yardsticks...what's at stake, I guess, if Annie isn't convinced? & why do we care about convincing her? & why is 37 lines in each of 37 stanzas or something similar, why is that the extension of content? Why is that not as "oppressive" a floor plan as abbaabbaetcetc? Specifications like that, so wondrously hailed & oft-commented, are not what makes _My Life_ brilliant or interesting to me...& is form still "open" when those #s come into play? & is the drive to be "open" & "poised against" Form,etc. compatible with sequences--even when random? How open is open? how pure is politics? then how righteous? emily ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:20:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: Alice Notley's _The Descent of Alette_ In-Reply-To: <960515010909_300996921@emout17.mail.aol.com> Just a note about _The Descent of Alette_: There's a review of _The Scarlet Cabinet_ (and much about _Alette_) in the first issue of WITZ (1.1), available for download at the EPC. The review is by Ed Foster (hi, Ed). You will have to bring up the complete issue (it's not hypertext), but anyone interested in the book might want to take a look at what Ed has to say. (Hint: if you want to get through all the other articles and go directly to the review, search on the word Alette.) --Chris Reiner creiner@crl.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poetry on the net what's this about poetry being in popular decline now?--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:51:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mikl-em Subject: Re: quertzblatz > "Querzblatz" (although "quertz-" is an acceptable variant spelling) has > absolutely no meaning nor etymology whatsoever.........It > has Q and Z in it because those are the letters not on the telephone > dial, and they sound cool. > > Gwyn McVay Gwyn, watch out! the new pay phones I have seen have Q and Z printed on the 1. See how the resistance becomes the establishment! whoever it was with those new alphabets better hurry--poetry's getting harder than chinese algebra. [or is it just happy to see me?] : ) bezt, mkl. m 2 thee eye 2 thee see 2 thee osh 2 thee eh 2 thee eeee! 2 thee elle. mike @taylor.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:34:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: chax books I'm going to muddy up the poetics waters with commerce once more, but I haven't noticed too many complaints from other presses doing so, so here goes. Please DO NOT send any orders to this poetics list, rather send them directly to me via email at chax@mtn.org, or via postal service to Chax Press, P.O. Box 19178, Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178. And you can call at 612-721-6063. These three offers, or combinations of them, are good only for orders placed by June 10, 1996.=20 I. Chax printed a small pamphlet just in time for the recent Robert Duncan conference in Buffalo, and after selling those at the conference and to press standing orders, we have just a few left, for $10 each plus $3 shipping & handling. The pamphlet contains excerpts from three of Duncan's copy book entries. It also contains a sentence from the copy books leading in: "Mine are songs for people who cannot sing to sing." and another sentence leading out of the book: "The language revising its own architectures is the cloud palace and drift of your desire." The other excerpts are somewhat longer, and one is a poem. The entire pamphlet is 12 pages, these pages being a combination of Gutenberg, Biblio, and Moriki papers, hand sewn into handmade paper wrappers. All type in the pamphlet is handset and printed letterpress in 2 colors. 2. Chax has a limited number of copies of the first book produced by the press in Tucson, Arizona, in 1984, which still carries a Black Mesa Press imprint, Black Mesa being the press begun by Charles Alexander in 1981 in Madison, Wisconsin. I think we had an NEA grant which included this book, so had to use the Black Mesa imprint, even though everything else became Chax Press upon the move to Tucson in 1984. This book is hand printed on Rives lightweight paper in two colors, and consists of twenty of Mac Low's French Sonnets. The type is Garamond from the Golgonooza Letter Foundry, and the design is very classical. The three signatures of the book are sewn and bound in cloth over boards. The binding was designed by Katherine Kuehn, who currently operates the Salient Seedling Press in Albuquerque, and was executed by Katherine and by Mary Laird, who currently operates the Quelquefois Press in Berkeley. This book has been selling for $65, but is currently offered to Poetics List members for $20. 3. Finally, Poetics List members may choose from the following list any 3 books for $5 each, a savings of up to $10 per book. a $3 shipping/handling charge will be added for orders of 3 books; however, no shipping charge will be added for orders totaling $20 or more, including any combination of orders from the following list, of the Mac Low book, and of the Duncan= pamphlet. Kathleen Fraser, when new time folds up, 1993=20 Norman Fischer, Precisely the Point Being Made, 1993 (co-published with O= Books) Rosmarie Waldrop, Fan Poem For Deshika, 1993, (hand printed pamphlet) Beverly Dahlen, A Reading 8 =97 10, 1992 Ron Silliman, Demo to Ink, 1992 Eli Goldblatt, Sessions 1 =97 62, 1991 Sheila Murphy, Teth, 1991 Karen Mac Cormack, Quirks & Quillets, 1991 Charles Alexander, Hopeful Buildings, 1990 Larry Evers and Felipe S. Molina, Wo=92i Bwikam/Coyote Songs, 1990 bp Nichol, art facts: a book of contexts, 1990 Once again, please send orders directly to me at chax@mtn.org, or to the address listed in the first part of this message. and thank you, Charles Alexander Chax Press ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:55:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: poetry on the net >>>what's this about poetry being in popular decline now?--md Funny, I heard something about popular poetry being in decline now. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: I muse you make so slight a question Comments: cc: finchar@muohio.edu What's at stake? What's a stake? What's open? What's closed? If you don't know, why do you ask? Why fly? Do the words reflect events, environs? Isn't place a question of syntax? Do your profs think they're speak from a platform of objectivity or are they fooling themselves? Do you think TV is the catholic church of the new dark ages? Isn't this simply behavior? Don't you grow weary, irritable? Have you read _Sunset Debris_? What for? You don't like it? What sort of things can be done in Finnish that can't be done in English? Does the worth of the value concede to the expectations of the narrow castle walls called syllabic muffins? Will you publish my next book? Does CHRIS STROFFOLINO remind YOU of NIETZSCHE? But isn't a difference in tone really a difference in meaning? Does that one look like a cop or a crook? If there are no conclusions why do we wish for them? So there's no special way of knowing when a poem is over? Can it be _sort of_, or does it have to be yes or no? Think'st thou that I'll endanger my soul _gratis_? Is this an easy attainment? What is so important? Nietzsche? And for that reason did the robe really cease to signify anything relative to the truth of zen? And who's the good guys? Do you have a conscious, underlying reason that you write? Is it only to make up a world? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:03:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: quertzblatz my objection to the term "quert(z)blatz" is precisely that it sounds too germanic for my taste, being more of a romance-lingo-orientated chick myself, and a german philologist is about the last type of guy i'd want to be emulating. sorry gwyn, i love the idea of a neologism to describe what, after all, wants to neologize the language, but the Q-word isn't one that'll creep into my vocab anytime soon. i like "experimental" cuz of all the nice vowels in it. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:13:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes Comments: To: Rod Smith John Cage changed his mind every day - that's why it never smelled bad. The great thing about his dicta was that they weren't rules, they were celebrations or warnings. John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:46:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: quertzblatz Well, Jordan, actually I say QUERTZBLATZ, YOU say querzblatz.... (is the t big enough for the two of us?) c ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: poetry on the net no, I thought it was that "decline" is popular in poetry now.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: quertzblatz how about el quertblatzo, maria ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:09:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poetry on the net >what's this about poetry being in popular decline now?--md Wait. Isnt that a kind of oxymoron? Or does it mean that the decline of poetry is popular with people? But then that would mean that people cared about what happens with poetry.... .......................... Is a counterfeit robot different from an ordinary robot? George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:03:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: walcott/paz/milosz news clip... i would greatly appreciate it if whoever posted that news clip with our nobel laureates' rejection of cspace would post me same again backchannel... and/or the source, if possible... i accidentally tossed it, and it'll help me greatly with something i'm busy brewing... please post to amato@charlie.acc.iit.edu many thanx!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:09:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: quertzblatz At 04:00 PM 5/15/96 -0500, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > how about el quertblatzo, maria > but certainly not nietzschblatz...to me "querzblatz" sounds, happily enough, like Dr. Seuss, but then it occurs to me that he must've been German... "and [experimental poetry]'s name a boneless string of vowels..." ? em ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com "Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:57:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: *Querzblatz*: Specimens and usage Rrrr-whaaar, you dear and pungent l'construction workers: Since neologisms tend to congeal--to become stained by the context in which they are used--I thought I'd blend in my very own (all ideas copyright 1996 by Robert Hardin, professional prosodist: DO NOT PARAPHRASE) examples before the cement hardens and the color scheme goes to the printer. Microwave your mixed metaphors for faster flavor, Rob Hardin (who requires no insurance or medical coverage, since a certain pelagic sonnet by a Pultzer Prize-winning Belgian will allow him to "live forever") *Querzblatz*: Specimens and usage IIII. An exact copy of Kandinsky's *Staccato Abstract* was tattooed all over the suspect's pulsating, querzblatz hands. XV. I can't read the letterhead on account of those roosters and their querzblatz neo-Italian madrigals. VV. It is no longer querzblatz to read the ingredients aloud while pouring the [table of] contents on yourself. MCCCXXXCIV. Ron Silliman's new manual, *Teach Yourself Querzblatz in Fourteen Days*, is a must for students and professional prosodists alike. LXDQD. Aphid hail, aphid hail, querzblatz *homopterae* in the local mail! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 19:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: poetry on the net At 12:38 PM 5/15/96, Maria Damon typed: > what's this about poetry being in popular decline now?--md Yes, and the little toy ships are much further away than they used to be, according to Yeats, and people are now smaller and more misshapen, and trees bear less fruit, as of 443 b.c., according to Thucydides. Yes, I've heard rumors that poetry is no longer read, just as I've heard that poetry is permanent--that, long after the Earth is a cold black planet orbiting a dead star, Keats will still be "immortal." On the other hand, I have neighbors who read Barret Watten. signature here, the lowly self-effacing novice (don't look here) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 20:12:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: coincidence xanadu (taking a pitch) Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com, 73132.2550@compuserve.com, halem@tcplink.nrel.gov Not that things appear to be heading in a xanalogical direction, in any case= ... What's at stake? Think'st thou that I'll endanger my soul _gratis_? =8A=E9.=EF=EE=E7~=F1 Bill-- I agree. . (3 and 2, men on second and third) --Jordan ))NEw publsihgne grot aserr tmmm from the beginnnnnn =E9=E9=E9=E9 qzblqtzlctlblaqt= zl boom I take SPACE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: quertzblatz >I've seen the word "quertzblatz" (?sp) used on this list a few times, and can >guess from context that it means something similar to "experimental", but I >can't find a definition anywhere. Can anyone help with meaning, etymology &c? > > >Thanks, > Tom Beard. It was first used, I believe, by Joseph Conrad, the Polis novelist. You'll see it during the explosion scene at the end of _Heart of Darkness_. .......................... Is a counterfeit robot different from an ordinary robot? George Bowering. 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:05:36 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry on the net Comments: To: Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM decline popular poetry now w. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:19:16 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: words better than my own (fwd) Have you heard about the young guy in LA who was found assassinated? He'd been working on behalf of Mumia Abu Jamal. Gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:29:33 -1000 From: x341540 To: iww-list@iww.org Subject: words better than my own I send this poem to explain a situation full of pain, confusion, and anger. who killed mcduffie (a definitive question) his brain was bashed cranium crashed skull fractures/broken all the way around but they said those who beat him didnt kill him so who killed mcduffie? maybe it was the ame ones who didnt kill clifford glover/randy heath/jay parker claude reese/randy evans/luis baez arturo reyes/bonita carter/ eula love elizabeth magnum/arthur miller & countless others when they musta tripped or their fingers slipped maybe it was the same ones who didnt kill jose torres/zayd shakur/fred & carl hampton/jonathan & george/joe dell twyman myers/spurgeon winters & a few thousand others perhaps it was those who didnt kill lumumba/che/amilcar/biko/fanon mondlane/marighella/cordero & quite a few thousand more do you suppose it may have been those who didnt kill the indians & mexicans who didnt steal the land & claim that they discovered it who didnt steal afrikan peoples halfway across the planet who didnt loot our customs/cultures religions/languages/labor/& land who didnt bomb the japanese/ vietnamese/& boriqua too do you think it might have been those who didnt kill at attica/watts/dc/ detroit/newark/el barrios at jackson state, at southern u at the algiers motel who didnt shoot mark essex for 16 hours after he was dead ask them and thy'll tell you what they didnt do but they cant tell you who killed mcduffie maybe it was one of those seizures unexplainable where he beat himself to death it wouldnt be unusual our history is full of cases where we attack nightsticks & flashlights with our heads choke billyclubs with our throats till we die jump in front of bullets with our backs throw ourselves into rivers with our hands and feet bound and hang ourselves on trees/in prison cells by magic so it shouldnt be a mystery that nobody killed mcduffie he just died the way many of us do of a disease nobody makes a claim to the police say they didnt do it the mayor says he didnt do it the judges say they didnt do it the gov't says it didnt do it nixon says he didnt do it the fbi/cia/military establishment says they didnt do it xerox/exxon/itt say they didnt do it the klan & nazis say they didnt do it (say they were busy in greensboro & wrightsville) i know i didnt do it that dont leave nobody but you & if you say you didnt do it we're back to where we started looking for nodody who killed mcduffie you remember nobody dont you like with de facto segrgation where they said the schools were segregated but nobody did it on purpose loke when they said there's been job discrimination for years but nobody did it intentially but nobody we're looking for the one with the motive to kill mcduffie & you see, we must find this nobody who slew mcduffie because the next person nobody will beat, stomp,hang or shoot to death wont be mcduffie it'll be you or someone close to you so for your own safety you should know the pedigree of who killed mcduffie you should know the reason of who killed mcduffie and you should remember all those forgotten who died of the disease nobody makes a claim to so we wont be asking who killed you by Hakim Al-Jamil from Hauling Up the Morning. amor y solidaridad, miguel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:37:42 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Salmon Subject: Re: quertzblatz querzblatz = anglicization of german qwertz-platz which translates as typewriter/keyboard place - probably relates well to laureatte discussion also dan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 01:19:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: poetry on the net > poetry now > starring marlon brando and martin sheen. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 01:23:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: poetry on the net Comments: To: Wystan Curnow "Decline popular poetry now" Popular poetry now. Popular poetry then. Popular poetry now and then. John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:50:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: poetry in the nabes > >On the other hand, I have neighbors who read Barret Watten. That's not so uncommon, the people next door to me have neighbors who read Watten too. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 03:59:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: qwertyuiop In-Reply-To: <199605160437.QAA15949@ihug.co.nz> as for the form thing. wasn't there a sestina being chucked around here not to long ago? isn't that a form? if i want to write a poem and dress it up as a sonnet; do i go shakespeare or spenser? am i borrowing culture, elevating it to an "accepted" medium? i'm not sure. would the function of me/you/us churning out 100 cantos in terza rima be a shrine or a mockery to/of dante? kevin "the true Querztblatzists are against Quertzblatz" -the ghost of Tristan Tzara(who bends my paperclips and steals my smokes) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:42:33 +0930 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol or Jeremy Close Subject: Poetry On The Net Hello People who would have never cracked a book of poetry are >> now reading it on the internet. A traditionally printed magazine of > >Amen! :) There is poetry on many of my non poetry my mailing lists. And my husbands. They include wargaming, housewife, health, womens, sex, and a joke list. People often quote poetry in their sigs. In the body of their mail they send topical poems they find or write, quote poetry urls, make references to poets or particular poems. Poetry is as about as unpopular as chocolate. People may say they don't dig poetry but that doesnt stop them it using it, writing it, quoting it and pointing to it. I wonder is e-mail seeing a change in written correspondence which has darned gone and produced a new loquat age for poetry? There is poetry right through the nonsense/humour page set as well. I have just founded a poetry webring thanks to Sage Weil. If anyone is interested in becoming part of this interesting navigational setting let me know. The webrings themselves are already poetry:) Amazing numbers of homepages sidle of to a poetry page at some point! Carol Lachlan (born 20/12/95) has this to say about web poetry- ,kmjmk,k m sAr t k pA ak xxq- FC FVVDFCCCV ,,,,,L; ZNNB JJJJJJJJFF F IUMNM M B =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Carol or Jeremy Close, Adelaide, Australia cclose@academy.net.au Jeremy is member 0 in the Inner Circle of net-Wraiths -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 07:58:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 15 May 1996 12:11:23 -0400 from On Wed, 15 May 1996 12:11:23 -0400 Emily Lloyd said: >in...but if we reject those old forms (& the criteria for judging & >inhabiting them) why do we want to find a similar criteria for ourselves or >Annie to judge open work...are those Forms forever yardsticks...what's at >stake, I guess, if Annie isn't convinced? & why do we care about convincing >her? & why is 37 lines in each of 37 stanzas or something similar, why is >that the extension of content? Why is that not as "oppressive" a floor plan >as abbaabbaetcetc? Specifications like that, so wondrously hailed & >oft-commented, are not what makes _My Life_ brilliant or interesting to >me...& is form still "open" when those #s come into play? & is the drive to >be "open" & "poised against" Form,etc. compatible with sequences--even when >random? How open is open? how pure is politics? then how righteous? emily A lot of good questions here... off the top of my head, two reasons why I have been interested sometimes in "formalities" - first, they CAN provide resistance while writing, that brings out new things. Second, it's a way of communicating & challenging & absorbing what's been done before. It's not really an ideological issue for me, it's a matter of writing. Others have made an ideological issue out of it. To them I would say: yes, Olson & WCW & Pound & Whitman & others did a world-changing tremendous thing in poetry (but not exactly a new thing in world poetry). & yes they are as much if not more background in my particular writing than most more traditionally formalist poets. But ultimately I would say: Celan's free verse is as closed as an axe falling. Mandelstam's tight quatrains are as open as a hobo's daydream. Open is closed; closed is open. Deal with it. - Henry Gould > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Emily Lloyd emilyl@erols.com >"Fist my mind in your hand"--Rukeyser ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:23:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Making fun of their names again In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 15 May 1996 09:58:40 -0500 from On Wed, 15 May 1996 09:58:40 -0500 Jordan Davis said: >and Henry-- >there's counting in Mondrian but it's fibonacci counting-- >or gauss counting-- >or duke ellington counting-- >which is a different count--three and two-- >from ah-one-two-three-- yeah well, a march is different from a july. but it's all counting, a seasonal thing. "Teach me to number my days." Might as well dance while you have a chant. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:30:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: words better than my own (fwd) Comments: To: Gabrielle Welford The "young guy in LA who was found assassinated" was Michael Taylor. He had been a KPFA volunteer and was attempting to start a micro radio station. He had indeed been working on behalf of Mumia Abu Jamal, but even informed radical journalists in the area believe that the killing was done by three men who knew him well and was for "financial gain" rather than from political motives - one of them was later caught driving his car. Conspiracy theorists will have to go very far out into left field on this one. John Whiting ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:02:38 -0400 Reply-To: knimmo@ic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kurt Nimmo Subject: Re: poetry on the net Diane Marie Ward wrote on Wed, 15 May 1996: > aspects: the Internet has so many advantages for poets - > 1)one is not subject to a publisher- one is free to explore/experiment This may be one of the reasons Milosz et al fear the Web -- the medium is very democratic, even anarchistic, & anybody can publish anything -- yes, even garbage -- which has a tendency to blend everything together... I suspect Milosz et al like a tightly controlled situation -- i.e., a small number of literary (paper media) publishers with access to bookstores -- because in such a situation they are prominently featured. > 2) even if the poetry is not refined/honed, the poet will be exposed to > more poetry through his/her interest in the subject by doing a simple Net > search - thus almost self-teaching, or at least refining taste by being > introduced to new styles and perhaps a different approach. In order to do this with traditional media, you would have to spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars on expensive books -- plus wait weeks, months for the books to be shipped. Finding an obscure author in the nooks & crannies alone would take an immense amount of work. All of this -- with a robust search engine -- takes only a few minutes on the Web... > 3) Poetry may be in popular decline now - but the younger generation which is > being raised in this paradgim will appreciate creativity & the freedom > of the Net and perhaps poetry will see a resurgence and > 4) small press publishers indie book sellers will benefit in the long run > because people will develop a taste for certain authors and may seek out to own > a copy. More than a few publishers have samplers & catalogues on the web. These include SUN & MOON PRESS (http://www.sunmoon.com/), BLACK SPARROW (http://www.blacksparrow.com/bsg5.html), and AVEC SAMPLER (http://www.crl.com/~creiner/syntax/sampler.html). Others are coming online all the time... > 5)New marriages of poetry and art and sound will occur, and the public > will be exposed to them rather than waiting for PBS to produce a series ; I take it you are referring here to the PBS series THE UNITED STATES OF POETRY. A good series -- even if it spends too much time on the old standards: Allen Ginsberg, Amiri Baraka, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Jack Kerouac, Derek Walcott, Rita Dove, Joseph Brodsky, Czeslaw Milosz -- even Lou Reed and former prez Jimmy Carter. Nothing against any of these poets -- just that there are hundreds of others who need the exposure (does Jimmy Carter *need* exposure?)... > Nobel Prize winners may question its viability, but we should not allow > that to shadow any of the progress being made -- There will always be a > struggle between those whose arms are folded and those who run to embrace. > (Personally I still prefer to read a book - but the value found on a > computer screen connected to the world is all too seductive.) Yes, I prefer a book also... tho if you find a poem on the Web, you can always send it to yr printer & take it with you on the bus or to the park... > > If I recall correctly, Czeslaw Milosz is featured on a web site... > It is at http://sunsite.unc.edu/dykki/poetry/milosz/ -- it is a very > impressive site complete with audio text of him reading in English & Polish. So why is he skeptical of the technology if he is featured on a web site? Kurt Nimmo http://ic.net/~knimmo/png.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes Since no one seems interested in speaking up on behalf of Annie Finch, allow me-- I have just gone through her book, _The Ghost of a Meter_, and her main point, as well as many of her readings, are worth checking out. She's not another Timothy Steele, as some people on the list seem to have assumed. She wants to establish an understanding of metrics as a code--it's a Sausurrian reading of how regular metrical forms signify, or can be made to signify, by certain writers in certain conditions. So her sense of "form" seems to have to do with how traditional forms are made to signify as codes. It's a theoretically naive sense of what constitutes form from the perspective of modern mathematics and physics and their application to poetics, as a number of people have pointed out, but it's not, I think, based on the kind of political position that's been attributed to her. Her reading of Dickinson is actually rather similar to Susan Howe's reading, except that whereas Howe stresses the painterly aspects of Dickinson's prosodic ruptures as signifying her resistance to patriarchy, Finch stresses Dickinson's uses and oppositions of metrical forms. She examines the ways Dickinson modulates between, say, a tetrameter line and a pentameter line in the same poem, and argues that such shifts mean something--usually having to do with resistance to a patriarchal poetic tradition. In so far as she's dealing with metrics as a meaningful rather than a decorative aspect of the poem, her fundamental position is not that different from many people on this list, although I'm sure there are major differences over how that process is understood to take place. For the record, she misquoted me in her post to Mark--I did not say that forms exist on a continuum from regular to irregular. I was speaking of metrics, and arguing that metrical patterns exist on such a continuum, my main point being that the notion of non-metrical poetry promoted most recently by Steele and Co. is nonsense, that all poetry is metrical, i.e. measured, although we can speak meaningfully of regular metrics and irregular metrics (what Williams called the variable foot). Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 12:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: quertzblatz i think it's the blatz so soon after the quertz. i'd go for "quertablazzo" --italianize it. gives the "er" a less "ur" sound too. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 12:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poetry On The Net right on, carol and jeremy close. people love to moan and groan about the decline of poetry but as far as i'm concerned, that kind of precious, self-aggrandizing nostalgia has nothing to do w/ reality. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 09:54:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mikl-em Subject: Milton Project this may be of interest to some, so I thought I would pass it along...and I did, in fact. mkl. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199605151910.PAA182278@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU> Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:10:20 -0400 Reply-To: "A. E. B. Coldiron" Sender: mike@supacat.c2.org From: "A. E. B. Coldiron" Subject: X-Post: Milton Transcription Project To: Multiple recipients of list PROSODY Dear PROSODY Readers, As John Milton wrote in _Areopagitica_, "a good Booke is the pretious life-blood of a master spirit, imbalm'd and treasur'd up on purpose to a life beyond life." THE MILTON TRANSCRIPTION PROJECT is dedicated to assuring that all of Milton's poetry and prose will be available for public access on the Internet. Although most of Milton's poetry will soon become available at the Oxford Text Archive and at the University of Richmond server, most of the English and Latin prose--along with a great deal of fascinating Miltoniana-- remains to be transcribed. We invite you to join us in providing accurate scholarly transcriptions of these texts. THE MILTON TRANSCRIPTION PROJECT (MTP), currently supported by Milton-L, _Milton Quarterly_, the Computer Writing and Research Laboratory at the University of Texas at Austin, _EMLS_, and the University of Richmond's web-server, is the joint creation of volunteers from 24 colleges and universities in three countries. Volunteers may transcribe as much or as little as they wish; each transcription will be proofread, formatted, checked, and refereed. We shall acknowledge any significant contribution, and all accepted transcriptions will be credited by name. In order to volunteer, to view test sites, or to receive other information, please contact either Professor Hugh Wilson (MTP, Editor; dithw@ttacs.ttu.edu) or Professor A.E.B. Coldiron, (MTP, Internet Liaison; aec2b@virginia.edu). The only requirements are diligence, concern for accuracy, and the ability to type with one or more fingers. Volunteer: earn the intangible reward of "those whose publisht labours advance the good of mankind" (_Areopagitica_, 1644). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 15:01:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Formal Continuum Tom Bell raises a good question about the distinction between form and technique. My sense is that it's something we don't talk about enough. Here's what John Dewey said in "Art as Experience," "Technique is neither identical with form nor yet wholly independent of it. It is, properly, the skill with which the elements constituting form are managed. Otherwise it is show-off or a virtuosity separated from expression. Significant advances in technique occur, therefore, in connection with efforts to solve problems that are not technical but that grow out of the need for new modes of experience...." As for the formal continuum debate, I don't find the idea of a continuum useful except to the extent that it allows me to say that I think its premise is completely wrong, which I guess makes it an idea that's wrong in all the right ways. To define poetic form from within the confines of poetry exclusively, by means of a continuum, it seems to me, does not define form very well at all. It's an approach that defines by force, by fixing the institutional endpoints of praxis as functional and universal, and then organizes the refusal to recognize anything beyond them as normal and self-regulating, as a simple matter of category and history. A validation of what is found in between these agreed "points" might resemble diversity, but it's a diversity that's preordained, not one that is simultaneous with formal possibility. The use of the term "form" without any discussion of material or other technical factors, seems to me to be too "formal." It leaves too many aspects of production and reception unspecified and leaves form only fit for describing ideology. As politics is elevated above all other concerns poetry can only respond in kind, that is become internally politicized itself. Once diverted by politics it becomes incapable of responding to form in a more general way, or to expressive opportunities outside of its historical or technical domain. Arguing about who or what marks the endpoint of praxis, for me, marks little difference. It's still the discipline or category instituting itself. I think "scene," by the way, tries to do the same thing as continuum, only on a smaller scale. Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 15:25:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Pick ONE Jordan, I too flubbed "Reading Comprehension." Always read, "Reading Compsosition." Helas. BobH ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 15:39:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: formal continuum Ward Teitz's remarks are helpful in generalizing the issues of form rather than re-hashing politicized debates. It raises a question though: just how DO you focus on the place where technique & form interact? At one extreme you have a blindered form/content open/ closed debate, on the other a kind of wide-open quest for poetry as a multi-art phenomenon under the influence of all kinds of lenses, ideological, material, art-historical, etc. Themes. I know this is kind of a useless rhetorical question. At the back of my mind (to the left) is the idea that poetry is paradoxical in that a great deal is going on in an extremely concentrated reality under a rather simple unprepossessing surface. Perhaps the ultimate "form" poetry takes is the riddle. And the claims & debates that rage & ramble are carried on by people (us) who often never enter that hidden reality, or get to the poem. Does the concept rule the form - or is the concept multi-form, depending on what lense we bring to the "artefact"? (Is the concept Peirce's "thirdness"...) Or is this all mene mene tekel under the sign of dissolving Babel before the emergence of a para-language...zzzzz... - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:42:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: readings in NYC the next few days At POETRY CITY tonight, 5/16 Gary Lenhart & Carol Conroy 6:30 p.m. 5 Union Sq W, 7th fl free At SEGUE tonight, 5/16 Bill Luoma & Deirdre Kovac 7:30 p.m. 303 E 8th st free At ICHOR tomorrow, 5/17 Bruce Andrews, Charles Bernstein & Ann Lauterbach 8:30 p.m. 127 W 26th St $? At the EAR Saturday, 5/18 Jeff Derksen & Eileen Myles 2:30 p.m. 326 Spring St $3 At POETRY CITY Thursday 5/23 Robert Hale & Shannon Ketch 6:30 p.m. 5 Union Sq W free attendance is mandatory there will be a quiz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Remaking their names again Sed Hen: yeah well, a march is different from a july. but it's all counting, a seasonal thing. "Teach me to number my days." Might as well dance while you have a chant. - HG The intensity though is it high enough? ("Nervous don't pay"--Clint Eastwood) What was substituted in poetry circa Basho was not thousands of wet leaves on the road. For what. For an irrecoverable grace? It was surprised. Surprised was substituted (I don't understand basketball at all but people are very kind and will explain it. around the time of the frog (the year of the cat?) and counting, which was when I played bass most of what I did, especially in Lohengrin, is that really what you do when you have something to say when you have to say something to the count anything is possible but there is a shot clock) --the count ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 21:31:10 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes Mike Boughn wrote: >So her sense of "form" seems to have to do with how traditional forms >are made to signify as codes. Form is never _less_ than an extension of content. Tom Beard (whose preferred initials are TRB, not TB (funnily enough)) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes mike boughn, i for one have nothing against annie finch nor do i assume an antagonistic politics on her behalf. since questions of form per se do not interest me, but questions of the meanings that get attached to form DO i nterest me, i'm glad to have a precis of her work in a way that makes it sound intriguing and meaningful beyond a nostalgic apologetics; i wd expect as much from her--thanks--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:51:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes In-Reply-To: <96051621311046@met.co.nz> I like what the esteemed Chas. Bernstein said: Form is never more than an expression of _malcontent._ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 18:22:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Hilton Subject: Political Diction - Announcement Submissions are now being accepted for "Political Diction 96," a magazine devoted to the electoral process, and most specifically to the election year 1996. A multi-partisan magazine distributed each election year, it is hoped that "PD" will allow writers and artists to express their views about the democratic process and our government. Interesting and innovative essays, poetry, short stories and (easily reproduced) visual art are welcome. Submission deadline is August 15, and the mag will be distributed in Sept/Oct. Please send to: Political Diction 96 c/o M. Hilton 1706 U Street, NW, #102 Washington, DC 20009 "Democracy, which shuts the past against the poet, opens the future before him. . ." Alexis de Tocqueville ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 18:44:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes Mike Boughn, I agree with Maria. I was not trying to demonize finch as to assert my lack of interest in systematic studies of form (which I know, you're interested in too). Maybe this will change on my part-- but the questions of the MEANING that get attached to forms interests me too. What does Maria mean by this meaning, meaning as value? Since I read both "traditional" and "non-traditional" (i'm not defining that now) verse (in terms of "form"), I guess I'm curious what form attracts me and why. But I guess I feel that "meaning" tends to get pushed aside, in such discussions. As if the meaning of the form matters more than the meaning on a more content level. If I see the MEANING of say a Berrigan poem as similar to the meaning of a Shakespeare sonnet (and i don't mean a SINGULAR meaning, but a kind of meaning-complex), am I being a bad boy who has not eaten enough of my post-modern peas and recognized how IMPORTANT the formal differences are in the fashion- show of life? cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: readings in NYC the next few days >At POETRY CITY Thursday 5/23 >Robert Hale >& >Shannon Ketch >6:30 p.m. 5 Union Sq W free > >attendance is mandatory >there will be a quiz jordan, i apologize for my absence. my dog ate it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:11:32 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry on the net declining poetry? what dead language is this? poetry, poetryst, poetryiton? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: readings in NYC the next few days Would like to add Segue May 18 Chris Mann (Australian linguistic composer, phenomenal.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:30:05 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes But yes, Henry Gould, I was listerning to you & Ch.Pierce, don't worry abt it.3rdness is good fun. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:31:28 GMT+1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) I'm not surprised abt "maths" in "artworks", just chary of seeing that as its value. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: formal continuum/conspicuous repetition (fwd) --------------------- Forwarded message: From: FINCHAR@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu To: AERIALEDGE@aol.com Date: 96-05-16 15:22:48 EDT Dear Rod, Thanks. Could you please forward this one to the list? Re: Replies to the post on the formal continuum: A dozen replies are waiting on the server in my office an hour from home and I can't acess fthem until next week. But I have seen a couple fo the latest--and the subject haeadings--so I have some idea, i think, fo what the resposne has been. And I just wanted to throw into the mix the thought that my idea of formalism--my love for sensual repetition in poetry, and my interest in celebratingcc elerating it in books like the anthology in question--has nothign to do with political conservatism (I saw timothy Steele's name mentioned in this context). First, ther eis no connection between formal proclivities nad political ones, or else fascist Pound and antisemite Eliot would have written sonnets while radical Millay would have written the Cantos. Check out Adrienne Rich's essay Format and Form in her new book of essays for more on this common misperception. Also, my own interst in form is based if anything on a sense of he democratic potential of oral poetries, and appreciation for the universal/communal roots of the art in tribal poetics. I am not personally a conservative in the least. ANd of course, I am personally tired of having it assumed that because I love formal poetry I am some kind of reactionary in my personal life. My main point though is that I wish we could begin to discuss some kind of common overall map of how poetics works, without panic based on political factions/fractions. My own poetry started out in freee verse, and when noticed the coded meanings in my occasional unintentional metrical riffs, I wanted to mistress meter and find out how to control it better. That led to learning to wrtie in form, enjoyhing it,a nd to the idea of the metrical codes explained in THE GHOST OF METER. Ghost of Meter in turn led me to realize that as a fefminist I wanted to write in other meters, and I am now writing in metetrs that have not been seriously explored before, to wit in dactyls. These are regular meters, with a regular rhythm. But they are plenty challenging to me as I learn how to vary them and make them live. THey defamiliarize language and rid me of the need to put an ego-subject in the middle of the poem. i enjoy them. But his is not for politically reactionary nrreasons; if i waqnt to go back, it is about 10,00 years back, not back to the ighteenth century as some formalists do seem to want to do. Well, I will resond mor eafter I read athe texts being held hostage at my office. --Annie I ome--et smakbbpmy fegn g .to T HsetMy fowrks. anry But still, asal tribacs a lir Adn and ant quto has nothing to do with is at tThough The last I etDear Pis list? wrard this ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:39:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: Formal Continuum At 3:01 PM 5/16/96, Ward Tietz typed: > The use of the term "form" without any discussion of material or > other technical factors, seems to me to be too "formal." It leaves > too many aspects of production and reception unspecified and leaves > form only fit for describing ideology. Discussions of form are *usually* too unspecified. Why is that? In classical (and quertzblatz) music composition, discussions of form are almost always on the level of formal construction. The absence of terms, I think, is what makes formal discussions in music so like a classical argument in which the terms are unknown. I'd like to see more of that in discussions of the poetry of our peers-- especially in discussions of so-called experimental poetry. The ideological aspect of form seems to me to be form's least interesting aspect. Certainly, attempts to right ideological flaws by means of formal innovation have created important approaches to form and technique--for example, Cage's chance operations, which were often created in an attempt to avoid intrusions of "the ego." But in arbitrary cases, there is also the danger of losing the initial impulse that leads to the occurrence of the poem. In the service of some self-conscious attempt to posit opposing or utopian takes on politics, many poets seem obsessed with writing prosodic PC models-- colloquial models to make the poem more "real," appropriations of street art to somehow avoid the artificiality of language (an impossibility). People often argue against formal Eurocentrism--as if Afrocentric forms were a priori better (or worse). I would argue that the *properties* of a poem--its idiomatic (not ideological) event, is resonance--are what make the poem work. Sometimes, the wish to avoid the obvious is the only doctrine, the only belief system, that a writer needs. All the best, Rob Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:42:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes Comments: cc: finchar@muohio.edu >Open is closed; closed is open. Deal with it. - Henry Gould 1. Do your profs think they're speaking from a platform of objectivity or are they fooling themselves? 2. But isn't a difference in tone really a difference in meaning? 3. Don't you grow weary, irritable? 4. Can it be _sort of_, or does it have to be yes or no? 5. So, um, case closed? ok, time's up, put down your pencils. please. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:03:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: readings in NYC the next few days G.H. wrote-- >Would like to add >Segue May 18 Chris Mann >(Australian linguistic composer, phenomenal.) time? I highly tout this individual. Go, if you can, he's an amazement. Just read at Bridge Street, terrific performer/poet/composer. Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:25:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: fromal Fnich cmoes a/ a fomral Ficnh coems/ At 11:49 AM 5/16/96, Michael Boughn typed: > She wants to establish an understanding of metrics as a > code--it's a Sausurrian reading of how regular metrical forms signify, > or can be made to signify, by certain writers in certain conditions. > So her sense of "form" seems to have to do with how traditional forms > are made to signify as codes. It's a theoretically naive sense of > what constitutes form from the perspective of modern mathematics and > physics and their application to poetics, as a number of people have > pointed out... Among other things, metrics are certainly a kind of code. The mere fact that a work might involve metrical patterns that might play against the content (line breaks, metrics that foreground the weaknesses and disloca- tions of syntax) suggests that there is a kind of pun, a duality, involved in metrical considerations. The most obvious examples might well be medieval--metaphysical shape poetry; medieval music by Machaut, which was sometimes written "in the shape of" the architecture of the cathedral in which it was to be performed; *musica ficta*--musical notes in a code that usurped the notes as written; *augenmusic* (music for the eye, ie, notation that drew pictures on the page); the parody mass, which sometimes encoded popular songs in an almost unrecognizable cantus firmus. I might argue that all sonically-based technique can be considered as a kind of code. The tricky part comes when one attempts to affix meanings to the *terms* of the code. I might argue that meter is a kind of non-functional, non-representational cryptography. The sound of language might have *originated* through a misguided attempt to represent, but ontomatopoeia retains an endearing artificiality. When sound-patterns repeat, the meaning often grows progressively more opaque. Laugherino, laugherino... In Julius Caesar, Shakespeare employs a rhetorical device that seems relevant: He uses the phrase "honorable men" repeatedly until the term begines to mean its opposite, and an angry crowd goes away in search of the "honorable" men they later kill. Could this be an example of how rhythm can be used to provide a counterpoint to poetic meaning? > Finch stresses Dickinson's uses and oppositions of > metrical forms. She examines the ways Dickinson modulates between, > say, a tetrameter line and a pentameter line in the same poem, and > argues that such shifts mean something--usually having to do with > resistance to a patriarchal poetic tradition. The resistance of ED's modulation/vacillation between meters *does* mean something. But I fail to see how any patriarchy is involved. Mallarme and Hopkins were resisting conventional metrics as well. There is no secret, pervasive conspiracy of straight white males formed to keep poetry metrical, just as jews are not responsible for the economic state of the world. BTW: I do not accept the idea that the Canon is such a "conspiracy" of straight white males. > I was speaking of metrics, and arguing that metrical patterns exist on such > a continuum, my main point being that the notion of non-metrical > poetry promoted most recently by Steele and Co. is nonsense, that all > poetry is metrical, i.e. measured, although we can speak meaningfully > of regular metrics and irregular metrics. So poetry would seem to be to me--though I am speaking from the perspective of a musician as well as a writer. No matter what style or period, poetry-- indeed, all writing, including prose--seems to scan as rhythmically as sheet music: everything still breaks down to two's and three's. Is this some sort of literal-minded failing on my part as a reader? Possibly--but I'm inclined to think otherwise. To me, it seems a failing on the reader's part *not* to hear music when s/he reads--unless there has been a conscious rejection of sound in poetry on reader and writer's part. (The idea is interesting, though, and has already lead to some fascinating work.) All the best, Rob Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 21:39:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: range review Nobel form or lil Hans Comments: To: AERIALEDGE@aol.com, "Sheila E. Murphy" , Jorge Guitart , welford@hawaii.edu, MDamon9999@aol.com, jdavis@panix.com, lsr3h@faraday.clas.virginia.edu, lsr3h@virginia.edu, cris@slang.demon.co.uk, clements@fas.harvard.edu In-Reply-To: > > > > > > Lil Hans put his finger in the dike > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if > > the > > > > > > > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular > > appeal > > > > > > > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > paz, > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > > > > > > > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > > > > > > > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands > > who > > > > > > > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > > > > > > > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > that lovers > > > > > > > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." > > > > > > What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites > > > > > > exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > One develops an understanding of different levels of > > suffering. > > stuttering machine gun ducklings > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes At 11:42 PM 5/16/96, Rod Smith typed: > 1. Do your profs think they're speaking from a platform > of objectivity or are they fooling themselves? If my "profs" (whoever these nebulous strangers might be) either "think" they're speaking from a platform of objectivity or are "fooling themselves," then it follows that my profs must either: 1. merely imagine they are speaking from a platform of objectivity (in which case, they would seem to be incorrect according to the terms of your question), or 2. are certain they speak from a platform of objectivity (in which case, they would seem to be correct according to the terms of your question). An interesting idea, but a strange one... > 2. But isn't a difference in > tone really a difference in meaning? You would have to ask the writer. Otherwise, how could you presume to know what s/he means merely by listening to the tone? (Ad hominem and stir, my personable gourmet?) > 3. Don't you > grow weary, irritable? Don't you walk three blocks north of your house on Suffolk Street to kick stray cats on your way to the Estroff Pharmacy on Second Avenue? Don't you ask to fill a prescription for your remissive phlebitis and sigh sensually when you receive your treasured prescription? If not, why not? > 4. Can it be _sort of_, or does it > have to be yes or no? *Always?* > 5. So, um, case closed? Not if my mind is still open. Would you please check the trunk? > ok, time's up, put down your pencils. But I'm enjoying my phallocentric pencil's attempt to visually usurp my androgynistic imagination with notions of POWER, MORE POWER, adjective-verb, adjective-verb, adjective verb! Meaning is arbitrary, don't you think? Arf, arf! Whinny! Bra-a-a-ck! > please. Well, when you put it *that* way... All the best, Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 01:16:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes At 12:01 PM 5/15/96, Rod Smith typed: > Re Cage & improvisation-- actually he sd he changed his mind about > improvisation after hearing Messian improvise on the organ. > > --Rod Fascinating information, Rod. Thanks for offering it. Where did you hear this? All the best, Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 01:26:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Formal Continuum Re John Cage and chance operation: In 1982 in London there was a major 70th birthday festival given for Cage. It included two whole afternoons in which his music was performed without formal breaks, consecutively and simultaneously. Many of the same musicians took part. The structures of both were determined by chance operations governed by the I Ching. The first event was planned by one of the organizers, the second by Cage himself. The first afternoon was dreary beyond description. 4'33" seemed like 4hrs33'. The second afternoon went by in a flash. Everyone was constantly laughing and applauding. Never had four hours gone so quickly. Why? Cut to Gertrude Stein's death bed. Alice: What is the answer? Gertrude: What is the question? John Whiting Diatribal Press London ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 02:03:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans Lil Hans put his finger in the dike > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if > > the > > > > > > > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular > > appeal > > > > > > > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > paz, > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > > > > > > > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > > > > > > > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands > > who > > > > > > > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > > > > > > > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > that lovers > > > > > > > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." > > > > > > What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites > > > > > > exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > One develops an understanding of different levels of > > suffering. > > stuttering machine gun ducklings Jimmy America Animal Razzamatazz, shit ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:04:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 16 May 1996 23:42:28 -0400 from On Thu, 16 May 1996 23:42:28 -0400 Rod Smith said: >>Open is closed; closed >is open. Deal with it. - Henry Gould > > >1. Do your profs think they're speaking from a platform >of objectivity or are they fooling themselves? what profs? > >2. But isn't a difference in >tone really a difference in meaning? > problem is a lot of meanings presented in monotone. >3. Don't you >grow weary, irritable? > no, I make others so. See answer to #2 >4. Can it be _sort of_, or does it >have to be yes or no? > the rest comes from evil. [see 3 doors down: Circle of the Equivocators] >5. So, um, case closed? > Bill's in the mail. - Guru Dobba Bowl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:49:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter and Karen Landers Subject: Re: sometimes a formal Finch comes tom bell wrote: >this may come from sheer blissful ignorance but im having trouble >distinguishing form from technique in this discussion, especially >in light of tony greens comments. one can have fine technique and >not be "in form". can one follow a form (?closed) with no technique? >are form and technique identical, similar, or mutually exclusive? just a quick semantic point: - "formal" means *starting* with a predetermined form, in my book - not all shapes are forms, that would extend the definition of the word beyond all use - many modernists sought "new forms" rather than an end to form (Spring and All) - "open form" is a form because it can be seen as a reflection of one of the current models of the universe - there is often more structure in an "open form" piece that in any formal poem I have ever seen Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com http://www.vivanet.com/~landers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: a formal Finch comes In-Reply-To: from "Carnography" at May 17, 96 00:25:33 am > Among other things, metrics are certainly a kind of code. The mere fact > that a work might involve metrical patterns that might play against the > content (line breaks, metrics that foreground the weaknesses and disloca- > tions of syntax) suggests that there is a kind of pun, a duality, involved > in metrical considerations. Actually I meant "code" in a more strictly structuralist sense. This is what she says: ". . . the metrical-code theory concentrates on the information value of specific occurences of metrical patterns within a poem. The word _code_ implies that meter in a metrically organic poem can function like a language, carrying different information at different points within a poem. . . . metrical associations create their own layer of literary meaning as they develop throughout a poem." Metrical "meaning", according to this theory, is generated through difference within a structure--an obvious reference to Saussure. As I said, it's an interesting way of looking at what certain poets have done in certain circumstances, a different way of reading the meaningfulness of meter. As for E. Dickinson and patriarchy, read Finch's argument. I never meant to become an apologist for her. I just wanted to correct what in my sleep-deprived state (damn those 2 a.m. feedings!) seemed to me a somewhat knee-jerk response by _some_ people to her brand of formalism. If my tone seemed shrill, I apologize. But here's one for you. What's the difference between "rules" and "conventions"? I just read an essay by Peter Burger in his collection called _The Decline of Modernism" (I don't have it here--it's 3 floors down--and can't remember the name of the essay and have Amelia sleeping finally in one arm as I type this and am not going to go down to the kitchen for it and risk waking her up--just to reintroduce the "body" here) in which he argues that one of the differnces, or points of modulation in the development of modernism (the transition from the 18th to the 19th century, from the Enlightenment to Romanticism) was the shift in poetic composition from rules to conventions and the different way that positioned the writer socially and as an "artist". Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:30:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: forming at the mouth M. Boughn's & A. Finch's recent posts maybe answered my question of yesterday re: W. Teitz's message: how to focus more precisely on where form & technique conjoin. The focus on metrics & measure might lead into the internal structure, where all the effects take place. It's not that ideology & background are not important - it's that they excuse a superficial reading or a non-reading. Meter is famously hard to read & hard to agree on - thus the dearth of comments on it here & elsewhere, I suppose - but to listen to it (along with all the other halting stuttering slowdown effects of poetry) might lead to the water in the rock. Maybe combined with some kind of "semiotic approach" (what is the order of meanings - the yes & no - that builds the architectonic?) I know this is not anything new. But then classicism is revolution (I mean the prehistoric classics) - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 09:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: readings in NYC the next few days some say: attendance is mandatory >there will be a quiz but i say: will there be a querz. md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans Lil Hans put his finger in the dike > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if > > the > > > > > > > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular > > appeal > > > > > > > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > paz, > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > > > > > > > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > > > > > > > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands > > who > > > > > > > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > > > > > > > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > that lovers > > > > > > > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." > > > > > > What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites > > > > > > exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > One develops an understanding of different levels of > > suffering. > > stuttering machine gun ducklings Jimmy America Animal Razzamatazz, shit on a shingle, and adam and eve on a raft, venus on the ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:14:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: NEW JOURNAL In-Reply-To: <960517093354_492968659@emout13.mail.aol.com> ANNOUNCING: The premier issue of FLASHPOINT: A Multidisciplinary Journal in the Arts and Politics. Issue 1 features: -New poetry by CHARLES BERNSTEIN, CLAYTON ESHLEMAN, JOE BRENNAN, DAVID HICKMAN, CARLO PARCELLI, FREDERICK POLLACK -Art by SUE COE and A. ZEMEL -RON SUKENICK interview and story -JOE BRENNAN on the LANGUAGE POETS -JUDITH BRODY on SUE COE -ART COVER on Adaptive Ecology -DAVID KAUFMANN on THEODOR ADORNO -MARK SCROGGINS on IAN HAMILTON FINLAY -Reviews of Eshleman, Perelman, Nicholls, Comens FlashPoint combines a commitment to modernist/postmodernist poetics with a rigorously political social commentary. 8 1/2 x 11", 100pp. The first issue is available for $7.50; make checks payable to FlashPoint, PO Box 6243, Washington DC 20015-0243. Inquiries may also be directed to Jim Angelo at . (Or you can drop me a line--Mark Scroggins) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:20:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 17 May 1996 10:00:05 -0400 from On Fri, 17 May 1996 10:00:05 -0400 Maria Damon said: Lil Hans put his finger in the dike A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if the use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular appeal of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio paz, and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands who read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that mputers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical that lovers serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning enty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn out--our viscerae get bored. One develops an understanding of different levels of suffering. stuttering machine gun ducklings Jimmy America Animal Razzamatazz, shit on a shingle, and adam and eve on a raft, venus on the pair a dicey flytraps for the eyes have it eventually between the tis and the this it hurts said Milt the popularist Blind King Atwells Avenue Poet Porthole ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:38:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans Lil Hans put his finger in the dike > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if > > the > > > > > > > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular > > appeal > > > > > > > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > paz, > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > > > > > > > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > > > > > > > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands > > who > > > > > > > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > > > > > > > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > that lovers > > > > > > > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." > > > > > > What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites > > > > > > exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > One develops an understanding of different levels of > > suffering. > > stuttering machine gun ducklings Jimmy America Animal Razzamatazz, shit on a shingle, and adam and eve on a raft, venus on the range life, if I could settle down, if I could settle down ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:46:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: readings NYC next days Maria, If there are quiz blossoms then who will gather them. If there is blinding meaning will we still have to look. What is the issue is a little power, A very little power, To resist almost successfully Our disappearance. Imagine Andy Warhol without power, imagine Frank O'Hara without power, imagine the language school. Your contradictory Berlitz, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: New Welcome Message > > Rev. 5-16-95 >____________________________________________________________________ > > > Welcome to the Poetics List > > & > > The Electronic Poetry Center > >sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & >Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo > >____________________________________________________________________ > > http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc >____________________________________________________________________ > > _______Contents___________ > > 1. About the Poetics List > 2. Subscriptions > 3. Who's Subscribed > 4. Digest Option > 5. When you'll be away > 6. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) > 7. Poetics Archives at EPC > 8. Publishers & Editors Read This! > > > >[This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein (bernstei@acsu.buffalo. >edu) and Loss Pequen~o Glazier (lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu).] >____________________________________________________________________ > >1. About the Poetics List > >Please note that this is a private list and information about the list >should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is >to keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and >also to keep the scale of the list small and the volume manageable. >Word-of-mouth (and its electronic equivalents) seems to be working fine. > >The "list owner" of Poetics is Charles Bernstein: contact me for further >information. As of May, Joel Kuszai is working with me to administer the >list. For subscription information contact us at POETICS@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU >____________________________________________________________________ > >2. Subscriptions > >The list has open subscriptions. You can subscribe (sub) or >unsubscribe (unsub) by sending a one-line message, with no subject >line, to: > >listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu > >the one-line message should say: > >unsub poetics > >{or} > >sub poetics Jill Jillway > >(replacing Jill Jillway with your own name; but note: do not use your >name to unsub) > >We will be sent a notice of all subscription activity. > >* >If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: > >Sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system >administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to >Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to get your Poetics >mail. To avoid this, unsub from the old address and resub from the new >address. If you can no longer do this there is a solution if you use Eudora >(an e-mail program that is available free at sharewar sites): from the Tools >menu select "Options" and then select set-up for "Sending Mail": you can >substitute your old address here and send the unsub message. > >The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your >system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may >get bounced. Please try avoid having messages from the list returned to us. >If the problem is low disk quota, you may wish to request an increase from >your system administrator. (You may wish to argue that this subscription is >part of your scholarly communication!) You may also wish to consider >obtaining a commercial account. > > >____________________________________________________________________ > >3. Who's Subscribed > >To see who is subscribed to Poetics, send an e-mail message to >listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu; leave the "Subject" line of the e-mail message >blank. In the body of your e-mail message type: > > review poetics > >You will be sent within a reasonable amount of time (by return e-mail) a >rather long list containing the names and e-mail addresses of Poetics >subscribers. This list is alphabetized by server not name. >____________________________________________________________________ > >4. Digest Option > >The Poetics List can send a large number of individual messages to >your account to each day! If you would prefer to receive ONE message >each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for that >day, you can use the digest option. Send this one-line message (no subject >line) to > listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu > >set poetics digest > >NOTE:!! Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply >to this message!! > >You can switch back to individual messages by sending this messagage: > >set poetics mail >____________________________________________________________________ > >5. When you'll be away > >Do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going to be away >for any extended period of time! Your account may become flooded and you may >lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. You can temporarily >turn off your Poetics subscription by sending a message: > >You can temporarily turn off your mail by sending a message: > >set poetics nomail > >& turn it on again with: set poetics mail > >When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics >archive. (See 7 below.) > > >____________________________________________________________________ > >6. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? > >our URL is > >http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc > >The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is to >serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in >formally innovative writing in the United States and the world. The Center >provides access to the burgeoning number of electronic resources in the new >poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS >List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts, and direct >connections to numerous related electronic >RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about contemporary print >little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. And we >have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets' reading their work, as >well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio interview series. > >The EPC is directed by Loss Pequen~o Glazier. >____________________________________________________________________ > >7. Poetics Archives via EPC > >Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the >links to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and >year or search them for specific information. Your interface will >allow you to print or download any of these files. > >Or set your browser to go directly to: >http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/poetics/archive > >____________________________________________________________________ > >8. Publishers & Editors Read This! > >PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is open >and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications >as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a >list of your press/publications to >lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject >line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word processing >program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the address above >to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked >up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your >word processor ill save files in Rich Text Format (.rtf) this is also highly >desirable > >Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy >and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts >from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for >ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press >and any distributors. > >Initially, you might want to send short anouncements of new publications >directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the >EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have >a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts. > >Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a >noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication >and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. >____________________________________________________________________ > >END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:39:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: young guy killed in LA In-Reply-To: <199605170404.AAA11340@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Gab -- the story is still up in air, mysterious, etc -- young guy in question is former street person who'd gotten involved in broadcast journalism thru the Pacifica station here & its programs -- yes, he'd been coveing AMJ story, along with many others -- small story in LA Times, and some coverage in LA Sentinel (Local black paper) but true motive for murder of this young man still not known -- I'd suggest a phone call to KPFK or to Pacifica near you as possible place to begin if you're looking for info about this tragic murder -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans Or renga viewer, or whatever. Uhhm, I know that summer's coming up, the season for mailbox filling "renga", but, erm, wasn't there a decision by consensus of the list to circulate these collectively created poems privately during the composition period & post some of the completed pieces to the entire list. Rather than, say, take over everyone's mailboxes with screen after screen of growing columns of left hand carets. At issue here is not the quality of the work, but the quantity of the process. Those who are new to the list since last fall may find this attitude unnecessarily harsh. If so, I suggest that you search the Poetics-List archives for the word "renga" to get a fuller sense of the previous instance of this kind of thing & the discussion about it. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:01:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans In-Reply-To: <960517100004_115556083@emout19.mail.aol.com> On Fri, 17 May 1996, Maria Damon wrote: > Lil Hans put his finger in the dike > > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that > cyberspace > > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked > if > > > the > > > > > > > > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular > > > appeal > > > > > > > > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > > paz, > > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth > of > > > > > > > > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one > person > > > > > > > > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of > thousands > > > who > > > > > > > > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed > that > > > > > > > > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > > that lovers > > > > > > > > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > > yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." > > > > > > > What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites > > > > > > > exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > > for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it > > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > > and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > > triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > > One develops an understanding of different levels of > > > suffering. > > > stuttering machine gun ducklings > Jimmy America Animal Razzamatazz, shit > on a shingle, and adam and eve on a raft, venus on the > phone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:46:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Typo of the Day Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu I'm intrigued by this Polis novelist you mentioned, George. Would that be Conrad Olson? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:08:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes la di da di da di la did did la la did la di deeee la du du dud du la lud lud lud duh lull le le leee lee leee leee de de de de de ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:47:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: a foraml Finch comes In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 17 May 1996 13:08:33 -0500 from On Fri, 17 May 1996 13:08:33 -0500 Chris Stroffolino said: > la di da di da di la > did did la la did la di deeee > la du du dud du la lud lud lud duh lull > le le leee lee leee leee de de de de de checked my bird book - that's no finch, it's a stufted sandsifter. - hullygully red ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:06:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: read it but don't In-Reply-To: "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > What I care about is Don't believe a word of it > > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > > > and don't cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > > > yeah well, demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > > exotica of the don't really care about you..." > > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were excercizing their rites > > > One develops an understanding of different forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > > > > for smart bombs. in the dike > > > stuttering machine gun ducklings > > > > > > > > levels of > > > appeal > > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > > paz, > > > my work deeply than hundreds of > > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms on a shingle, and adam and eve on a raft, venus on the > person > that > phone > > Jimmy America Animal Razzamatazz, shit > Lil Hans put his finger really care about it." Milosz allowed > > > > > > > > readers. Walcott said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > > > > > > > of serious poetry stated that "I'd rather have just one > > > > > > > > use of the Internet stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > > who > cyberspace > if > of > suffering. > > > that lovers > > > the > > > triumph of the human spirit thousands undaunted about the current dearth > > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked > > > > > > > > of poetry, the group was one way to reverse the low popular > > > > > > > > who reads and feels winning poets has declared that > > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > > read it but don't http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Ich war Hamlet. Ich stand an der Kuste und redete mit der Brandung BLABLA, im Rucken die Ruinen von Europe. Heiner Muller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:20:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: sometimes an informal Cage comes > Re Cage & improvisation-- actually he sd he changed his mind about > improvisation after hearing Messian improvise on the organ. > > --Rod >Fascinating information, Rod. Thanks for offering it. Where did you hear this? >All the best, >Hardin From Cage. It was late 80s I believe. Messiaen improvised on a cathedral organ in France. I don't think John changed his mind abt jazz improvisation, but w/ the number pieces he admits (or at least he saw it this way) or gives permission for improvisation in a way he hadn't previously. He may talk abt this in an interview somewhere as well. I'll see if I can find a cite for you, if you have Retallack's _MUSICAGE_ it might be in there. Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Help In-Reply-To: <960517142027_537320820@emout15.mail.aol.com> Would anyone have the snailmail address of the University of Sidney Press? Please backchannel -- mercy buttercups, Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= On Fri, 17 May 1996, Rod Smith wrote: > > Re Cage & improvisation-- actually he sd he changed his mind about > > improvisation after hearing Messian improvise on the organ. > > > > --Rod > > >Fascinating information, Rod. Thanks for offering it. > Where did you hear this? > > >All the best, > > >Hardin > > >From Cage. It was late 80s I believe. Messiaen improvised on a cathedral > organ in France. I don't think John changed his mind abt jazz improvisation, > but w/ the number pieces he admits (or at least he saw it this way) or gives > permission for improvisation in a way he hadn't > previously. He may talk abt this in an interview somewhere as well. I'll see > if I can find a cite for you, if you have Retallack's _MUSICAGE_ it might be > in there. > > Rod > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:33:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Bob Bertholf Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Does anyone have a number or e-mail address for Bob Bertholf at Fubbalo? I couldn't locate him through the EPC. Thanks. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 17:14:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Whiting <100707.731@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: sometimes an informal Cage comes Comments: To: Rod Smith Cage certainly allowed for improvisation within the established parameters of the Four Songs he wrote for Electric Phoenix (SATB quartet plus electronics). He attended our first rehearsal at my studio in London and gave his approval to our rather free-wheeling approach; his only caveat was that the singers shouldn't listen to each other. His droll recognition of the groups' character was contained in his final note of instruction: "A virtuosic performance is invited." He got it! John Whiting October Sound (my other hat) London ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:03:37 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: range review Nobel form or lil Hans In-Reply-To: > > > > > > > Lil Hans put his finger in the dike > > > > > > > > A group of Nobel Prize winning poets has declared that cyberspace > > > > > > > > is no place for serious verse, according to Reuters. Asked if > > > the > > > > > > > > use of the Internet was one way to reverse the low popular > > > appeal > > > > > > > > of poetry, the group said no. Poets Derek Walcott, Octovio > > > paz, > > > > > > > > and Czeslaw Milosz were undaunted about the current dearth of > > > > > > > > readers. Walcott stated that "I'd rather have just one person > > > > > > > > who reads and feels my work deeply than hundreds of thousands > > > who > > > > > > > > read it but don't really care about it." Milosz allowed that > > > > > > > > computers were useful incomposition, but was skeptical > > > that lovers > > > > > > > > of serious poetry would look for it on the Internet. > > > > > > > > yeah well, "seriouous" somea this Csezlaw > > > > > > > > cereal poetry on the cornflakes box made me what I am today > > > > > > > "I read you, chaise-lounge, but i don't really care about you..." > > > > > > > What I care about is demonstrating outside my window this morning > > > > > > > twenty thousand lilac blossoms excercizing their rites > > > > > > > exotica of the navel tickle the holy grails > > > > > > for smart bombs. Don't believe a word of it > > > > > sparse gleanings from the ivoried groves of academ > > > > and don't forget those of us who have a visceral reaction to > > > triumph of the human spirit stuff such as milosz and walcott churn > > > out--our viscerae get bored. > > > One develops an understanding of different levels of > > > suffering. > > > stuttering machine gun ducklings > > > soliloquy > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:34:0