========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:05:04 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Comments: To: Alan Sondheim On 31 Dec 95 at 14:54, Alan Sondheim wrote: > wrytings appear elsewhere on the Net, often unnamed, fantastic. Irigaray > has replaced Cage. What is Irigaray? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 02:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Comments: To: Joseph Zitt In-Reply-To: <199601010506.XAA08693@zoom.bga.com> Luce Irigaray, French theorist/psychoanalyst/feminist theorist, who wrote Speculum of the Other Woman, This Sex Which Is Not One, and a number of other books, and has described a fluid mechanics, feminist approach to writing, feminin ecriture - check out Marine Lover of Friedrich Nietzsche (Amante Marine) ... Alan On Sun, 31 Dec 1995, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On 31 Dec 95 at 14:54, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > wrytings appear elsewhere on the Net, often unnamed, fantastic. Irigaray > > has replaced Cage. > > What is Irigaray? > ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- > |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| > ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| > |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| > ( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 14:05:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Wanna date? Oh you POETICS people are SOOOOOOO conventional, aren't you? It's soooo predictable that the talkers won't be talking coz it's the "holidays" or something------ and i was just ooking for something for my hangover.... looking, ooking... (and sorry ruminations on COMPUTERS a la Higgins are BORING BORING BORING)........ well, good luck in '96.... and love, and peace signs made of nixons....chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 14:38:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Wanna date? > Oh you POETICS people are SOOOOOOO conventional, aren't you? > It's soooo predictable that the talkers won't be talking coz > it's the "holidays" or something------ > and i was just ooking for something for my hangover.... > looking, ooking... > (and sorry ruminations on COMPUTERS a la Higgins are BORING BORING > BORING)........ > well, good luck in '96.... > and love, > and peace signs made of nixons....chris Dear Chris: Please show me how my ruminations are reductive or irrelevant and I shall be delighted to think about that. If I thought they were boring, believe me I would not have raised the issue. You may well have insights which hsve escaped me. But we are here, I am sure you agree, to deal with the issues which concern us. And these issues concern me. "What man if his child ask him for bread will give him a stone?" Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:53:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS a fluid mechanics approach to writing? Wazzat? Also, does anybody know anything about how kids learn to use pronouns correctly (=, according to some folks I guess, inventing self & other)? The short and obvious answer -- "observing" -- doesn't quite get to what I'm looking for. But maybe that's all there is to it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS >I totally agree with Dick Higgins' assessment. I see development however >not as Web/MOO/etc. sites with applications towards telephony or .wav for >example but as a flux constantly mediated by corporate development on one >hand and _darknet_ uses on the other. The Web is a bore; MIRC or ThePalace >aren't. So it goes. But think of poetics as an emission or spew occupying/ >salvaging sites. I track down apps and that's getting impossible; using >them, remaining within one or another vortex/t, is foolish. I see my own >wrytings appear elsewhere on the Net, often unnamed, fantastic. Irigaray >has replaced Cage. > >On another matter, Dick's completely right about English Departments. >We've suffered long enough. And I have constant suspicions about academic >professionalism in relation to poetics, except the latter as after the >fact and even then how useful? > >Alan > >( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html >Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) While I agree with Dick up to a point I think it is also important to remember that a large number of writers are not yet connected to the net and many may not be for some time. I remember having a conversation about 6 months ago with the director of the NSW Writers' Centre. She claimed that a recent survey of NSWWC members suggested that only a little over 50% owned a computer - of those many had old machines ataris or 286 which ran old word processing programs and little else. Given the economic circumstances of writers (esp young or new writers) in Australia - updating computer equipment is not a high priority (many of the writers I know who are on the net are using machines that are three and four years old). While I don't think that the fact that many writers can't afford to be on the net should prevent others from fully exploring the possibilities I do think it is important that we acknowledge the potential for a gap to open up between writers with access to new technologies and those without. Mark (with his first real thought for 1996) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 18:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS on Sun, 31 Dec 1995, Dick Higgins wrote: > one wonders what are some characteristics of works >which function well on the web? > For example, time seems to behave differently in web poems than in >on-paper ones. One is impatient to download, one must read in two stages-do >I like this text enough to download it, and now I can see it, do I want to >keep it? I worry about the cost of being connected to my server (the >economic angle), and I can only see one screen-ful at a time. How does >poetic language (including visual-poetic language) function in such a >context? It still comes back to the *editor.* If you have been browsing for a while then you know that it's just like a big library. Eventually you find certain 'zines that have a high probability of tickling your fancy. These you down- load without browsing. For instance, if I see a Robert Kelly chapbook as a supplement to RIF/T, I snag that page, no questions asked! While it's true that the browsers can have an effect on the shape of the text (just as much as book size can,) the browsers usually offer a variety of page layouts for people who print out the pages. The limitations of fonts and font sizes have an effect, as well as the difficulties many people have with indents. Some of these will be overcome with improvements in the HTML spec. IRC has a greater impact on the shapes of poems than web pages. The programs generally wrap lines that are long, wipe out stanza breaks (unless you put in a period), and don't show more than 20 or so lines at a time. Newer programs allow people to scroll back or turn on logs to record the poems, but generally poetry on IRC is written in sand. The interaction with other poets is fun, however, especially if you like open readings. On the other hand, I haven't found many poets who share my views, or who know about my favorite poets. >If such a site can be seen in France, Thailand and Brazil, what does >this do to the very concept of national literatures? Is it a form of >cultural imperialism or is it a force for building the world literary >community? Or both? What will all this mean to us as writers, scholars and >thinking human beings? > Well, English has taken another step towards becoming the world language. I agree that it is cultural imperialism, but there's little that can be done now to stop it, aside from pulling the plug on the whole thing. There will be a massive preservation project similar to the Gutenberg Project for all cultures. I have a friend in Italy who writes in English exclusively. I think Dante would have made the same decision. Is this a good or a bad thing? When the Italians abandoned Latin, it was a good thing, IMO. BTW, I rejoice at the demise of any kind of nationalism. And I think this all means that we can exchange ideas faster. That's all. How that affects us is a whole different subject (that I could talk about well into the night.) >Leaving aside for now the related questions of how to pay and support the >publisher and writer, We don't have to leave this aside. I think it's a very important question. Publishing as we know it is coming to an end. Hooray! It's too expensive and too hierarchical and too full of scratch-me-back ethics. In the fiction genres, many writers are actually being paid and living off their books, but in poetry, most writers have to teach, lecture, and give readings to support themselves. And that's the successful ones! So for us (this is a poetics list, right?) it's no big loss. Our poets have the opportunity for wider exposure with little change in their means of support. And poetry publishers operate in the red anyway. Maybe this will be a relief. I downloaded an entire novel that is due to be printed and circulated soon. Frankly, it would cost me more to print it out than to buy the paperback. I don't like reading fiction at my computer. I'd rather sit back in an easy chair or curl up with the book in bed. I think my feeling is shared by most readers, so electronic files won't change the nature of fiction publishing until the computer interface changes. I found a few magazines that are using the web to advertise themselves. They provide samples. I haven't been inclined to subscribe to any, but that's just a reaction based on my taste. SUMMATION: We're not going to lose any money by using the web. The editor's taste will still be important. More people will see our poetry. The "Nation of Nothing But Poetry" is on the horizon. (Do I have stars in my eyes or what?!) Dick, you have been inspired by Blake's *methods* for longer than most people I know. Come back at me on the money issue. Do you foresee loss? As far as publishers and editors go, is it an exageration to say that you threw them all out years ago? Isn't the web already becoming the Anarchist's Encyclo- pedia? Is our greatest concern the FCC and AT&T and major providers like AOL that censor or limit access to the internet? I don't have much comment on the language arts departments, except to say that they're usually about 40 or 50 years behind the times. It appears they are beginning to teach the beats, so I guess we now know who won the Anthology War. FWIW, if I were studying with poets whose work I like I wouldn't want them to tell me how to write. I'd want to read and discuss their favorite writers. Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 04:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Dear Dick---I didn't mean to single you out. Sorry. I mean at least you had some reservations and were not as gung ho about a kind of techno-salvation as others.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 06:38:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: WEB POETRY I suppose I don't really know what "poetics" means, but it seems to me the term doesn't cover Dick Higgins' recent postings either. Personally, I don't care if the chat here ranges far and wide: announcements of new books, discussion of the economics of publishing, jokes, arguments about information technology, even college departmental talk (though I am one of the minority here who has no connection with academia). Although the hardcore stuff - philosophical discourse about the practice of poetry itself - is often interesting, it would be unbearable if that was all there was. On the subject of the Web, my view is: yes, it's overhyped, no, it's not about to replace publishing, yes, it's the precursor for major changes in the way information will be disseminated in the next century. Wendy Mulford and I have been having discussions here in the UK with John Cayley about putting up a Web site for Reality Street Editions, and I hope that will happen over the next year. But the fact remains that the vast majority of the current regular readers of the press's output still have no Web access. Admittedly, this is based on anecdotal evidence, and I would like to test it out with a survey of the two or three hundred UK-based individuals on our mailing list. My suspicion is that the results of the NSW Writers Centre survey reported by Mark Roberts would be replicated: ie up to 50% without even a computer of any kind, etc. Using the net to communicate has advantages; but currently it is also expensive, difficult and inconvenient. (Which, incidentally, may be one reason this list is so academia-heavy - it's much easier if an institution is providing the wherewithal.) It will only become really significant when the technology is as cheap and transparent as the telephone itself - which will be the case one day. Meanwhile ... the problem is netheads are so gung-ho about it all ... I've just had a message from a friend who has been creating graphics on a PC without a printer. He asked me if I could try printing them out via my Mac and laser printer. Lo and behold, I get four binary files from him this morning via e-mail which my software tells me will take nearly three hours in total to download - with a message saying he thought this would be the "easiest" way to get them to me. Well, I'm always willing to do a favour for a friend, but no way. I've asked him to put a disk in the post to me. Thank god for snail mail. Have an interesting new year, everyone! Ken ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS > Dear Dick---I didn't mean to single you out. Sorry. I mean at least > you had some reservations and were not as gung ho about a kind of > techno-salvation as others.... Dear Chris- Techno-salvation? Yikes! Well, I know what you mean. The mystique of computers is indeed repulsive. And how much of our time is wasted looking for this piece of shareware (needed for some specific project), etc. However, I'm sure you will agree on this part, computers DO exist, the web is available to increasing numbers of people at a time when our economy has been in a decline since the oil embargo (1973), monopolistic factors have made it harder and harder for independent stores to function or take chances (art galleries too, to cite a parallel problem), so that we who crave good reading are increasingly forced to the web (or, if we are lucky, to readings). If we as poets or writers or other kinds of participants in serious literature are to be confronted with web literature, does it not behoove us to ask ourselves what kind of literature works best on the web? And why? That isn't so much because one believes in the web as our salvation but because it is likely to be the most available medium for poetry and other non-commercial writing for the next period of time. Near me there is a small liberal arts college; student homelessness has begun to be a problem. Tuitions have become outrageously high, and there is talk of letting even tenured faculty go. I am an outsider, not teaching nor particularly wanting to teach (at least in cultural subjects). I hear this talk from my teaching neighbors. I see it on the web on this POETICS list. Naturally I wonder if some form of reorganization could help the situation. Yet most of what I hear on the web is the trivia (at least it seems such to me) of who meets whom at the MLA-date-making-or how to save the job of a good essayist who had written concerning the LANGUAGE people but was denied tenure. That's all business as usual in a time when 40% unemployment seems the logical outcome of Gingerich and the Ginkies' policies (higher among academics, as the number of schools contracts due to the loss of a "market" for graduate students). Of course I feel sorry for our essayist, but I cannot wonder if his jobn is saved if it will solve the problem in the long term. THIS is why I asked about WEB POETRY and RESTRUCTURING together-both are responses to a crisis which I see, not to one which delights me for some sadistic reason. Do not think, please, that the POETICS list is the only one where my questions are being raised. They are also being raised on the AVANT-GARDE bulletin board at SPOON, It's awfully neoteric but also very very serious. Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY >I suppose I don't really know what "poetics" means, but it seems to me the term >doesn't cover Dick Higgins' recent postings either. Personally, I don't care if >the chat here ranges far and wide: announcements of new books, discussion >of the >economics of publishing, jokes, arguments about information technology, even >college departmental talk (though I am one of the minority here who has no >connection with academia). Although the hardcore stuff - philosophical >discourse >about the practice of poetry itself - is often interesting, it would be >unbearable if that was all there was. > To me POETICS is the aesthetics of the arts, the policies which govern its making and its reception. The conditions under which the arts are made or experienced are part of the process, but the trivia of who meets who or how to save whose job (unless the entire field be challenged) are best left aside from this particular discussion. >On the subject of the Web, my view is: yes, it's overhyped, no, it's not about >to replace publishing, yes, it's the precursor for major changes in the way >information will be disseminated in the next century. Wendy Mulford and I have >been having discussions here in the UK with John Cayley about putting up a Web >site for Reality Street Editions, and I hope that will happen over the next >year. But the fact remains that the vast majority of the current regular >readers >of the press's output still have no Web access. Admittedly, this is based on >anecdotal evidence, and I would like to test it out with a survey of the two or >three hundred UK-based individuals on our mailing list. My suspicion is >that the >results of the NSW Writers Centre survey reported by Mark Roberts would be >replicated: ie up to 50% without even a computer of any kind, etc. > Who overhypes the web? Surely not the workers in the field or those who have been on line long enough to get used to it! Most of the discussions of it which I see deal with the nuts and bolts issues of how to get access to it; they are neutral azbout whether it is or is not a good thing. Frankly, I dislike the web-but I must live with it. As for access, it will be even more accessible as web machines become more common-Sun is the only one making and selling one now, but every manufacturer has one "in the tube" (literally). Those will cost ca. US$550-an amount comparable to a video player here and presumably the same, comparably, in the UK. >Using the net to communicate has advantages; but currently it is also >expensive, >difficult and inconvenient. (Which, incidentally, may be one reason this >list is >so academia-heavy - it's much easier if an institution is providing the >wherewithal.) It will only become really significant when the technology is as >cheap and transparent as the telephone itself - which will be the case one day. As above. >Meanwhile ... the problem is netheads are so gung-ho about it all ... I've just >had a message from a friend who has been creating graphics on a PC without a >printer. He asked me if I could try printing them out via my Mac and laser >printer. Lo and behold, I get four binary files from him this morning via >e-mail >which my software tells me will take nearly three hours in total to download - >with a message saying he thought this would be the "easiest" way to get them to >me. Well, I'm always willing to do a favour for a friend, but no way. I've >asked >him to put a disk in the post to me. Thank god for snail mail. > I would suggest to your friend that he stop and think. Furthermore, the UK has plenty of laser porinters on hand with which he could experiment, albeit for a slight fee. If he does not experiment and have some kind of dialogue with his own production, then what he produces is bound to be lousy and boring to anyone besides himself. You are doing him no favor, I believe, if you encourage him along these lines. >Have an interesting new year, everyone! > >Ken Have a fine year! Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:08:43 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: MLA Doings? As someone who's (1) been pretty much out of academia for over 20 years and (2) never been to MLA I'd like to say (speaking only for myself) that I *do* consider discussion of MLA doings of relevance to this list, would very much appreciate it if someone can post a summary, and if certain people don't like it they can just skip those messages. I happen to be one of those who did bypass most of the renga, but would not dream of trying to censor other people from posting theirs; I resent the recent attempts to censor this list of MLA discussions: If you don't like it, don't read the messages. Like it or not, there are *many* members of this list attending MLA, & I find it pretty hard to believe there was nothing that happened there of general interest here. Thanks in advance! -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:10:43 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Dick Higgins: > 1) On the poetics network I would have thought I would see speculations on > the present state of literature If you look through the poetics list archives, you'll find some discussion of electronic writing, writing futures, etc. (You *ought* to look through the archives, Dick; you'd find we're a very diverse bunch, with a lot of topic diversity the norm here.) > one wonders what are some characteristics of works > which function well on the web? Much more interesting is the question of what writing done specifically for this medium will be like. The ht_lit mailing list [absurdly quiet of late] is one place where a lot of discussion on this topic has taken place; and of course there's a *huge* literature on hypertext, quite a bit of it speculating on future "e-literatures". -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:12:07 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Dick Higgins: > Try this: scrap all > English and Comp Lit departments. Create two other kinds of departments in > their place: Departments of Literature and Literary History (parallel to > those in Art and Art History) and Departments of Language Skills (for > linguistics, technical, journalistic, English for non-native speakers, > basic grammars and remedial writing, etc.). I've had similar thoughts myself for a long time, but was not thinking of university level departments so much as junior high and high school. One of the reasons the schools do such a good job of turning out people who don't like poetry is that the same pedagogical methods are applied to the survival skill aspects of "English" as to the teaching of literature, which it seems to me call for completely different methods altogether. What *stops me cold* from openly proposing this on a serious basis is a hard cold rational analysis of what will happen in this age of budget cuts if we separate "literature" from the survival skill aspects of "English". Guess what's going to get cut? -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS In-Reply-To: Message of 12/31/95 at 12:58:20 from dhiggins@MHV.NET One reflection re: Higgins' modest proposal for literature departments. Split- ting/merging current literature depts. into one History & one Skills dept. is an admirable idea in many respects, but involves one danger: that administra- tions will continue their current inclinations & keep the Skills component while eliminating the History, or simply letting it wither away. Currently it is the skills component in literature depts. that allows them to argue for keep ing literature in the curriculum at all; separate the skills from the lit., & the bottom-liners of universtiy administrations will scour the lit. out of there in no time. While there may be people on this list who would view the loss of literature-teaching from universities as no loss at all, I for one wd. regret it. Literature's past barely exists for our culture as it is (hell, HIS TORY period barely exists for us...); knock it completely out of the university curriculum, & before long who will even remember that there WAS a past litera- ture? Brian McHale ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:54:44 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS In-Reply-To: A couple of thoughts re Dick Higgin's proposed separation of skills and history/appreciation in restructuring English departments. the ability to analyze texts is an important skill for which our society pays highly, albeit the texts tend to be legal documents, etc. but these skills are generally dealt with in the course of reading past literature. dick proposes the art history model, but in fact it is art history that is the more practical side; it teaches you how to recognize fakes and provenance, and has to do with assessing value. that is not quite what literature courses in college do or teach you to do, except insofar as there is prestige related to knowledge of literature. is there still any prestige involved with culture? I would think there is, but earning a living based on involvement with culture is not the same thing as having that prestige. Pierre Bourdieu's DISTINCTION (trans by Richard Nice and published by Harvard) includes very interesting examination of these problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS In-Reply-To: The university's function--as Ginsberg says somewhere-- is to take care of the archive, and it is about the only thing it does well. I would say (after 25 years in academia) that the only significant address to matters of contemporary importance is a result of subversion. And I would insist that tending the archive is a serious and important matter. To be overwhelmed by the archive, however, is a kind of decadence, and the poetry in the university *tends* to get overwhelmed. It was overwhelmed in the 50's the authority of the canon and produced the old academic poetry, and it was overwhelmed in the 70's by continental philosophy and produced the new academic poetry. As a result, poets tend to turn anti-archive and try to do something in ignorance, which of course is always a sad and futile undertaking. I do think the archive is badly in need of reorganization, but the last thing that needs to happen, it seems to me, is to isolate literature even more than it is now. I would rather see English combined with physics or almost any thing else than with the language departments (which in my experience tend to be among the most backward looking in the university). And rather than isolating it from rhetoric and composition, it is much more to the point to think of rhetoric and composition not as remedial skills but as concerns of organization that demand the most sophisticated attention (as we do in our graduate program at SUNY-Albany). As such rhetoric stands with poetics as disciplines in the archive. The point is, however, that the organization of the achive will never be appropriate to poets who live on the contemporary earth (rather than in the archives). Our approach as poets to the archive must always be that there is necessary stuff to find there, but that it is *our* job to find it and organize it in useful ways. By and large, the institution will not be sympathetic (I have scars to prove it), but night raids on the archive are necessary to the art. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:05:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS In-Reply-To: Dick et al, There is much to comment on in this proposal, but I'll focus on one thing, since it strikes me as very mistaken--the division of "literature and the history of literature" from the "meat and potatoes" language skills. There are practical and intellectual reasons for resisting this kind of division. Practically, this makes it much harder to argue for the viability of the literature department. The language skills will necessarily flourish, because a badly prepared student population will require them. Literature departments, by contrast, will have no "service" to offer the university, short of the introductory survey (unless a literature seminar is required, as is the case at many small schools). I do believe these are a genuine service, but many administrators will not. But the real issue here is the relationship between literature and rhetoric. It seems to me that these are integrally related, and that to separate them institutionally is only to perpetuate bad ideas about literature and worse ideas about rhetoric. Now I'll be the first to admit that the de facto relationship they have in the current structure--separate offices at opposite ends of the same hallway--is also absurd: English departments are more likely to staff composition courses with graduate students, assign one full-time faculty member to administer the program, and get on with the business of teaching "literature" than they are to actually contemplate the relationship between rhetorical practice--the contexts of speech and writing, the techniques and determinants of successful argument- - and literary representation and expression. This is a shame. But it's a problem that won't be served by separating them as if they were two disciplines. Rhetoric has already become a sort of neglected step-child of literary studies: this only serves rotten thinking about rhetoric and literature. jAnd poetics? Well, that's one of the things we do too in English departments. Perhaps our thinking about figurative language will benefit from an understanding of how figurative language works in a variety of rhetrorical contexts. We all know what the naked encounter with metaphor can lead to. I don't think we'll teach poetry or poetics better if we managed to get this other business off our backs, and threw the "dead wood" into the pile we just cared less about. For me, my business is language. And I think we need to foster thinking about language that breaks down the old divisions between "ordinary langauge" and "literary language." If we don't recognize that this should take place when we teach "literature" and "basic language skills" alike, then, to my mind at least, we're missing the boat. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:24:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: this or that is a good book In-Reply-To: <199601020502.AAA25696@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Now that I actually have a copy of Ed Roberson's _Voices Cast Out to Talk Us In_, let me commend it to your attention (It might even aid our concentration on poetics!*! -- I find that looking closely at instances of writing [even these posts, thank you] actually helps me to think about poetics -- and believe it or not I still buy books and read them -- even though I work in an English department))) Roberson's book consists of a reprint of _Lucid Interval as Integral Music_, his chapbook of some years ago that very few people saw -- joined to new work under the title "The Aerialist Narratives" -- here's a sample: Information planted on event like dope to jail a cause of this effect that This Doesn't get the connection Meaning-set is less than we have mind for. Leaving stuff not booked through state parity, that can't be thrown into change for correction. Asymmetry is the already in the happen of character to making a representation ___________________ AND -- it's was great fun to meet my fellow whiners from this list in Chicago last week, where many of us did indeed on occasion pass a word or two of poetics -- Now, let's get back to that idea of posting longer items such as those papers we missed and lengthy forwarded news items so interested folk can read them -- By the way, skip the intro. by Andrew Welsh to Roberson's new book, unless you just enjoy having your intelligence insulted -- _Voices Cast Out to Talk Us In_ Ed Roberson U of Iowa Press 149 pp 0-87745-510-4 $? (I got it on sale at that whiners convention in Chicago) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:50:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS >Dick Higgins: >> Try this: scrap all >> English and Comp Lit departments. Create two other kinds of departments in >> their place: Departments of Literature and Literary History (parallel to >> those in Art and Art History) and Departments of Language Skills (for >> linguistics, technical, journalistic, English for non-native speakers, >> basic grammars and remedial writing, etc.). > >I've had similar thoughts myself for a long time, but was not thinking of >university level departments so much as junior high and high school. One of >the reasons the schools do such a good job of turning out people who don't >like poetry is that the same pedagogical methods are applied to the survival >skill aspects of "English" as to the teaching of literature, which it seems >to me call for completely different methods altogether. > >What *stops me cold* from openly proposing this on a serious basis is a >hard cold rational analysis of what will happen in this age of budget cuts >if we separate "literature" from the survival skill aspects of "English". >Guess what's going to get cut? > >-- > Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ > CIS: 71515,124 > WELL: jer > Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net Well sure, and as you know these are the issues which John Henry Cardinal Newman addresses in THE IDEA OF A UNIVERSITY when he addresses the Utilitarians. I say: perhaps we should let it be cut and then start again? What, if anything, would we lose? Bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS BOYCOTT THE WEB! Well---so far I've been able to hold out... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:26:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert A Harrison Subject: new chapbook/Bob Harrison Just thought I'd mention that I've got a new chapbook available. To get a copy of "Split Poems" send $3 to me at: Bob Harrison 2542 N. Bremen, #2 Milwaukee, WI 53212 Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:48:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: new chapbook/Bob Harrison just a quick one to say that bob's book is well worth the three bucks... happy new year!... great seeing some of you at mla, one of the few reliefs from the negative job karma... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:56:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: SYDNEY FRINGE WRITERS FESTIVAL AWOL has been approached by the organisers of the Sydney Fringe Writers Festival to help them stock a small press bookstall at the festival (which takes place in less than two weeks Jan 14). They are also interested in stocking small presses from overseas - particularly those with some 'connection' to the Pacific (live near it, have swam in it??). If you are interested please back channel me ASAP and I'll give you some more details - I am hoping that the bookshop which is backing the festival might be encouraged to take some of the titles after the festival. Mark Roberts AWOL M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia ph 61 2 7475667 fax 61 2 7472802 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: vitalism? I thought it was something like energy that we were reading and looking for, and that to be prepared to pick up and follow it was the, um, ideal we to some extent shared. And that this energy was generated we assumed by a syntax although recognizable decidedly eccentric, discordant, extraordinary in the ordinary sense of not being the way it's done, although not so as to alienate entirely. But now I see it has to be something of a certain shop not to be shop, and the higgledy-dee has to go. I myself like the calm of alternate energies. Yup. See you? PS reading at Ichor gallery Friday at 8:30 on the dot me Matthew Morse and Lee Ann Brown.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:37:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS The Web, fundamentally, is quite boring. Not at all unlike television, not at all unlike the majority of Hollywood film. But what is exciting are those occasional moments of brilliance in its midst. But while the prospect of finding some (brilliant) art in the form of poetry on the Internet is the kind of thing that Dick Higgins is talking about, the Web-as-replacement-for-paperback is not a good model. The "electronic book" must be more (or different) than the paper version or else my PowerMac is a $3000 bookmark. The big question, then, is what do we do. Sadly, this post will not hold all the answers, although I will reply to Mark Roberts and say that while his point of the low level of "connectedness" of writers (and indeed of humans in the country and on the planet) is well taken, the Internet, for all its potential to be so, is not yet the provider of poetic democracy. Which is to say, let's not intercept our chance to dream with worries that we will not be including everyone. Just as electronic mail certainly does not preclude the handwritten postcard or the penned letter, so will poetry on the Net not replace by any means a book, a reading, or a sonnet on a napkin. What it offers is a bonus arena, not a wholly new medium since what is at stake is still language, but a different avenue, a different take on it all. Most interesting to me in all this is the visual-hook factor as brought up by DIck. We are not, as a populous of paper-readers all that comfortable reading on screen yet. I am not sure we ever will be as comfortable. The CRT is simply not as cosy as a book in a bathtub or a bar. But while that may lead to poems without such a hook being bypassed for others, the benefit of the Internet is its potential to provide a larger number of pomes to be perused at low cost to the peruser. Now that's democracy. The buzzword for all this seems to be "interactivity," and I think that that is where poetry will benefit on the Net. There is a chance for poems to be both performed (posted) and discussed, an interplay of artistic and critical voices that already exists between the poem and the essay, the journal and its letter page, but here might reach a level closer to simultaneity. That is what is most interesting to me re: the Internet: conversation, dialog, whether it be a conversation of poems, or a conversation about poems. Gary ......................................................................... .. Gary Hawkins Olympia, Washington .. ghawkins@halcyon.com "It's the Water." ......................................................................... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 21:50:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: question rerenga Hi! Just wondering if the once or twice bruited (sp?) renga hypertext ever got started? Now that's a movie I'd like to see at least once. Thanks, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Comments: cc: dhiggins@csbh.mhv.net >A couple of thoughts re Dick Higgin's proposed separation of skills and >history/appreciation in restructuring English departments. > >the ability to analyze texts is an important skill for which our society >pays highly, albeit the texts tend to be legal documents, etc. but these >skills are generally dealt with in the course of reading past literature. > >dick proposes the art history model, but in fact it is art history that >is the more practical side; it teaches you how to recognize fakes and >provenance, and has to do with assessing value. that is not quite what >literature courses in college do or teach you to do, > >except insofar as there is prestige related to knowledge of literature. >is there still any prestige involved with culture? I would think there >is, but earning a living based on involvement with culture is not the >same thing as having that prestige. > >Pierre Bourdieu's DISTINCTION (trans by Richard Nice and published by >Harvard) includes very interesting examination of these problems. This book sounds interesting but expensive. I shall seek but will I find. Perhaps it is discussed on the web somewhere? In the nineteen fifties, before there was serious public funding in this country and before art gave way to grantsmanship to the extent that it has, there was a high level of connoisseurship among the general public. It was lost. What happened? Perhaps you are right that in Art History one gets a certain practical instruction from which we could learn. I think that is what Joel Oppenheimer meant when he told me he was not allowed to teach Wordsworth. I would rather study Wordsworth with him than with someone who only knew the secondary sources, the history of the critical approaches to Wordsworth, etc. But anything like this would lie outside the college approach by period ("Wordsworth's THE EXCURSION and the English Romantics"-which avoids the tremendous debt of Wordsworth and Coleridge to the Jena group of German Romantics which is thus left to the Comp Lit people who have their own problems), and it lies outside the thematic ones ("The Gallows and Capital Punishment in Engtish Poetry," from the Elizabethans through Wordsworth's THE EXCURSION to the twentieth century), quite diverting but somehow incomplete. You see, my argument is that all this kind of textual analysis is valuable but it is hard to get to because of the scattered and compartmentalized approach to the consideration of language, the familiar phenomenon of our knowing "more and more about less and less," which inevitably leads to an inability to see the connection among things. One thinks of Thomas Love Peacock's satire on Coleridge with his flashes in his eyes and his speaking with such a myriad of digressions that everything loses its meaning. Prosit! Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:05:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS Comments: cc: dhiggins@csbh.mhv.net >One reflection re: Higgins' modest proposal for literature departments. Split- >ting/merging current literature depts. into one History & one Skills dept. is >an admirable idea in many respects, but involves one danger: that administra- >tions will continue their current inclinations & keep the Skills component >while eliminating the History, or simply letting it wither away. Currently it >is the skills component in literature depts. that allows them to argue for keep >ing literature in the curriculum at all; separate the skills from the lit., >& the bottom-liners of universtiy administrations will scour the lit. out of >there in no time. While there may be people on this list who would view the >loss of literature-teaching from universities as no loss at all, I for one wd. >regret it. Literature's past barely exists for our culture as it is (hell, HIS >TORY period barely exists for us...); knock it completely out of the university >curriculum, & before long who will even remember that there WAS a past litera- >ture? > Brian McHale Indeed this is a danger; and it is happening anyway, through misprision (SHAKESPEARE WITHOUT CYMBELLINE or TIMON OF ATHENS or THE WINTER'S TALE or other difficult-to-teach items, or POETRY WITHOUT VISUAL POETRY etc.). So why pretend it isn't? My intention is not Swiftian-I am not using A MODEST PROPOSAL as my model, and I am trying to be literal, not satirical in my suggestion. I have addressed some of the questions in other replies on this network and you have surely heard quite a few of my points from others. However though your caveats are serious, I would like to see what you suggest would be better improvement of the methods of teaching LIterature and Language than what I have suggested. Could you please oblige? Very bests Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS >Dick et al, > >There is much to comment on in this proposal, but I'll focus on one thing, >since it strikes me as very mistaken--the division of "literature and the >history of literature" from the "meat and potatoes" language skills. >There are practical and intellectual reasons for resisting this kind of >division. Practically, this makes it much harder to argue for the >viability of the literature department. The language skills will >necessarily flourish, because a badly prepared student population will >require them. Literature departments, by contrast, will have no "service" >to offer the university, short of the introductory survey (unless a >literature seminar is required, as is the case at many small schools). I >do believe these are a genuine service, but many administrators will not. >But the real issue here is the relationship between literature and >rhetoric. It seems to me that these are integrally related, and that to >separate them institutionally is only to perpetuate bad ideas about >literature and worse ideas about rhetoric. Now I'll be the first to admit >that the de facto relationship they have in the current >structure--separate offices at opposite ends of the same hallway--is also >absurd: English departments are more likely to staff composition courses >with graduate students, assign one full-time faculty member to administer >the program, and get on with the business of teaching "literature" than >they are to actually contemplate the relationship between rhetorical >practice--the contexts of speech and writing, the techniques and >determinants of successful argument- - and literary representation and >expression. This is a shame. But it's a problem that won't be served by >separating them as if they were two disciplines. Rhetoric has already >become a sort of neglected step-child of literary studies: this only >serves rotten thinking about rhetoric and literature. > >jAnd poetics? Well, that's one of the things we do too in English >departments. Perhaps our thinking about figurative language will benefit >from an understanding of how figurative language works in a variety of >rhetrorical contexts. We all know what the naked encounter with metaphor >can lead to. I don't think we'll teach poetry or poetics better if we >managed to get this other business off our backs, and threw the "dead >wood" into the pile we just cared less about. For me, my business is >language. And I think we need to foster thinking about language that >breaks down the old divisions between "ordinary langauge" and "literary >language." If we don't recognize that this should take place when we >teach "literature" and "basic language skills" alike, then, to my mind >at least, we're missing the boat. It sounds to me like you don't think Literature has the same value as other arts, that it must borrow its function from applied language courses, that it must somehow be snuck unto a curriculum under the noses of some scissors-carrying dean. To this I must object; in DICHTUNG UND WAHRHEIT Goethe (whom Emerson took as the archetypal writer) tells why he gave up medicine-literature, Goethe says, comprehends all the arts and experience even more than medicine comprehends the body. That is indeed my raison d'=EAtre for Literature. It is the master subject of 'em all, without which the others can barely be discussed. If your dean cannot see this, then trash him, go over his head, bypass him or whatever-we are now required to fight a cultural civil war which we as thinking people did not choose. In any war one must expect casualties. But we will win, because in the long run we, not the budget kings and queens, are the indispensible ones without which life is one long inchoate agony. Or do you disagree? Bestsx Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: in the long run we are in inchoate agony? In-Reply-To: Interesting to me are both this construction of "we" and the entitlement that's claimed for "us". Who says "we" have anything even remotely interesting to say to anyone not on this list (or even _on_ this list)? That goes double for me. Or rather, can it be that the appropriate responses to exaggerated claims for work/authors/times are exaggerated insults to said work/authors/times.. I also think, Jonathan, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that you were saying something closer to "the study of literature is the study of language" not for purposes of subterfuge but for statement of principle? That to dehistoricize the study of "language arts" is to abandon the dream of an educated general public, to turn over composition wholesale to the "writing process" and other charlatan plans? Or maybe it's a new year and we should all talk about how to run places that we detest.. or talk about subjects we've suppressed.. or eat better.. or enjoy the vibe set at the New Year's Day reading at St Marks.. anybody out there make it by? Armand Schwerner's elegy for his son was beautiful, Bruce Andrews was strangely composed, Gordon Gano (the Violent Femmes?) sang, things ran ahead of schedule, Lisa Jarnot read well, anybody seen Mitch Highfill's new book, Liquid Affairs, from United Artists? surprisingly calm intense and funny, Richard Foreman seemd to be rhyming, Lee Ann Brown did audience participation with fortune cookies, David Shapiro read and then Daniel Shapiro read, Wanda Phipps' boyfriend Joel Schlemowitz introduced a typewriter-clavier that he played Wanda's poem on as she read, who else, somebody tell me, I was setting up and selling books (two--Echolalia by George Tysh and, uh, a back issue of the World I think.). You know, the idea of a community. It was calm. The room filled up early. Jo Ann Wasserman and Brenda Coultas traded off on the mic, David Nolan was jumpy on the soundboard, was the backbone of the event, NYOne came through and filmed as Kathy Price was on, Dael Orlandersmith came on through. Even people ordinarily associated with the two rival NYearsday readings were milling around, chatting amiably. Anybody stay late? I took off before 7:30.. Jordan PS anybody go to the marathon Stein reading at Paula Cooper? Anybody feel things when they hear about "marathon readings"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 21:17:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: intro: The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project In-Reply-To: <199601030504.AAA15643@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> >>>> Synopsis: The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project began January 1, 1995. A round-the-clock posting of sequenced hyper-modern photographs by Brad Brace. The 12-hour-ISBN-JPEG Project --------------- BEGAN JANUARY 1, 1995 Classic HyperModern Photos... posted/mailed every 12 hours... perfect trans-avant-garde art for the 90`s! A continuous, apparently random sequence of original photos... authentic gritty, greyscale... corrupt and compelling experience. An extension of the printed ISBN-Book series... critically acclaimed... imagery is gradually acquired, selected and re-sequenced over time... [ see ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace/books ] >> Promulgated, de-centered, ambiguous, homogeneous, de-composed... >> Multi-faceted, excentric, oblique, obsessive, obscure, opaque... Every 12 hours, another!... view them, re-post `em, save `em, trade `em, print `em, even sell them... Here`s how: ~ Set www-links to -> ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace/bbrace.html Look for the 12-hr-icon. Heavy traffic may require you to specify files more than once! Anarchie, Fetch, TurboGopher... Or -> http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html ~ Download from -> ftp.netcom.com /pub/bb/bbrace Download from -> ftp.teleport.com /users/bbrace Remember to set tenex or binary. Get 12hr.jpeg ~ E-mail -> If you only have access to email, then you can use FTPmail to do essentially the same thing. Send a message with a body of 'help' to the server address nearest you: * ftp-request@netcom.com ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu ftpmail@cs.uow.edu.au ftpmail@ftp.uni-stuttgart.de ftpmail@grasp.insa-lyon.fr ftpmail@src.doc.ic.ac.uk * bitftp@pucc.bitnet bitftp@plearn.bitnet bitftp@dearn.bitnet -> www by email: agora@mail.w3.org /body: www ~ Mirror-sites requested! Archives too! The latest new jpeg will always be named, 12hr.jpeg * Perl program to mirror ftp-sites/sub-directories: src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/packages/mirror * ~ Postings to usenet groups: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.misc * ~ This interminable, relentless sequence of imagery began in earnest on January 1, 1995. The basic structure of the project has been over fifteen years in the making. While the specific sequence of photographs has been presently orchestrated for more than 5 years worth of 12-hour postings, I will undoubtedly be tempted to tweak the ongoing publication with additional new interjected imagery. Each 12-hour posting is like the turning of a page; providing ample time for reflection, interruption, and assimilation. ~ The sites listed above are currently active. They also contain some information on other cultural projects. ~ A very low-volume mailing list for announcements and occasional commentary related to this project has been established. Send e-mail to: listserv@netcom.com /subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg -- This project has been largely funded in advance. Some opportunities still exist for financially assisting the publication of a CD-ROM archive of all the 12hr-ISBN-JPEG imagery. -- Jpeg and gif are types of image files. Get the text-file, _pictures-faq_ to learn how to view or translate these images. [ftp ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace] -- (c) No copyright 1995 Any use acceptable ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: vitalism? I saw a new born babe with wild wolves all around it. I saw vitalism and judges. Judges that couldn't help but be against vitalism. And it starts seeming like individualism And all kinds of taboos langourously jump on that, nip that in the bud as if it's january and the hope of spring is but an extreme hyberbolic artificial good-guy bad-guy story that we should never let sing us to bed at night, much less cradle us in its arms without unless we dress it up in judge's robes. And if the voice in the wilderness claims to have found a beauty that can not be expressed in words and seems like an absence or a terror that could delay one's arrival at a "matter-of-fact" attitude that, for awhile at least, redramatizes the argument against argument that is vague enough on one level to crave yet hardcore enough to fly under its banner as if monogamously committed to a muse that lets you run away from it and play the prodigal cultural commentator at the other end of the continuum as if we don't need winter to get us through the winter because we have spring--- and only the oversuspicious would accuse you of not being able to enjoy spring in spring for the simple reason you can't enjoy winter in winter. And if you enjoy not enjoying, well then VITALISM is better in winter. And if you enjoy not enjoying, .... er--I lost my harmonica....c ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:13:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Small Press Traffic readings This is Dodie Bellamy speaking. As part of our Small Press Partners series, Small Press Traffic will be sponoring two upcoming readings in San Francisco. JANUARY READING Small Press Traffic and Intersection present a benefit reading for the new Talisman House anthology _Primary Trouble: An Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry_ edited by Leonard Schwartz, Joseph Donahue, and Edward Foster with the editors and Will Alexander * Ivan Arguelles * Dodie Bellamy * Norma Cole * Kathleen Fraser * Drew Gardner * John High * Andrew Joron * Kevin Magee * Laura Moriarty * Michael Palmer * Stephen Ratcliffe * Elizabeth Robinson * Leslie Scalapino * Spencer Selby * Aaron Shurin * Mary Margaret Sloan Tuesday, January 16, 1996 at 8:00 p.m. Intersection for the Arts, 446 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5.00 donation Talisman House P.O. Box 3157 Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157 FEBRUARY READING Small Press Traffic and the Poetics Department of New College present CHAX PRESS authors Myung Mi Kim and Mary Margaret Sloan Friday, February 2 at 7:30 p.m. 777 Valencia Street San Francisco $5.00 Michael Palmer on Myung Mi Kim's _The Bounty_: The fragment becomes entire as it re-searches memory, recovers texts, episodes, sounds and landscapes. The Bounty interrogates the radical and violent instability of our moment, asking where is the location of culture, where the site of self, selves, among others. Its gaps or silences speak as determinedly, and urgently, as its singular music. Kathleen Fraser on Mary Margaret Sloan's _The Said Lands, Islands, and Premises_: Sloan's passion for words - their lipstick traces and lingering inflections (as grammar would have it) - makes for a poetry of extraordinary pleasure and difficulty. The mind and ear are redirected from inherited sequence to intentional mutation. Established in 1984 in Tucson, Chax Press is one of the nation's premier independent small presses. Chax Press, a non-profit organization, has published more than 25 books of innovative poetry in both trade and hand-printed, hand-bound fine art book editions-excursions into the relationship among visual, verbal, and structural elements. In 1993 Chax moved to Minneapolis, where its most recent books have been by Norman Fischer, Kathleen Fraser, Mary Margaret Sloan, and Myung Mi Kim. In 1996 a return to Tucson is anticipated. Chax Press founder and director Charles Alexander writes, "We believe that our editorial and design sensibilities help us to stand out as one of a handful of publishers with which the present and future of an imaginative literature not constrained by the market forces of a capitalist economy is linked. Audiences are small but crucial. The work is among the most important tasks I can imagine." Chax Press P.O. Box 19178 Minneapolis, MN 55419-0178 612-721-6063 (phone & fax) chax@mtn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: The English Dept. of the Soul and the New World Order Does anyone else find it amusing that Dick Higgins is now embroiled in a discussion on how to save the English Department? Is that our job, Dick? And on the Poetics List, at that. In the last exchange on this question, someone suggested that budget cuts limited our response. This is a pernicious misrepresentation of the situation, and it demonstrates how thoroughly right wing ideology has shaped the entire discussion of these issues. The dismantling of the university as we have known it (which may or may not be a bad thing) is part of a right wing political program masked behind the rhetoric of economics. Accepting it as a budegetary problem is to capitulate to the political agenda of those who are re-engineering the institution to play a new role in the new, international economy. It's probably not salvagable. The private institutions will go on serving big money, and the public institutions, drastically reduced in scope and size, will increasingly fullfill a job training role. It may or may not be a bad thing because the University (including the English Department of the Soul) has always served a disciplinary function that the knee-jerk-neo-cons underestimate, and by dismantling it, they are unleashing forces of resistance that otherwise were harnassed to yet another Foucaultian reading of race-gender-cold-war -ideology-blah-blah-blah in Betty Crocker cookbooks. Who knows how that will fall out? But the last thing on my mind is worrying about how to reorganize the English Dept. Hey, onward, as Creeley says. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS In-Reply-To: Jordan, of course I like to have principle invoked in my name, though I don't even know what you mean by subterfuge! Can I have 'em both at once? Yes, I do think a principle is at stake, but that principle is indistinguishable, for me, from what I think will work best in educating students into the mysteries and pleasures and blind curves of language. I think English and Comp Lit departments could be more effective in teaching literature and basic skills if we recognized and nurtured their affinities. When our graduate student-TAs have a grip on Ted Taylor's logic and rhetoric model at Columbia, they do extraordinary things with it--but most students are not trained to see the relationship between logic and rhetoric and the kind of literary studies we practice on the other end of the hall. Perhaps Marisa Januzzi, whom I once observed teaching L & R, will chime in...? I agree, Dick, about "connections," though I suspect everyone teaching, including everyone teaching courses like Wordsworth and the British Romantics or Coleridge and the Penal Colony (I can't remember the 2nd example you gave) would also agree: they'd just claim that their connections were the more "vital" or "deeper" ones. Or perhaps, like myself, they'd only say they were different connections, differently meaningful. It's of course telling that you turn to Goethe (and I appreciate the Emerson link, since Emerson is at the center of my current book project, and I adore him, porcupine impossibility and all). On a certain level, and especially for someone like Goethe, connection at some point always implies a connection with Everything. Why should literature departments reproduce the dream of an infinite grasp? Many people have written and are writing on the historical horizon of the concept of Literature, but, as my phrasing suggests, I find myself thinking most here of Gadamer, in Truth and Method. The conception of literature, especially as it is juxtaposed with the narrow science of medicine, doesn't satisfy me: it reproduces divisions between art and science that, as I said about literature and rhetoric in my previous post, make for bad thinking about art (and, I'm convinced, though as a non-sceintist, about science). I don't, I hasten to add, think that literature is a secondary activity at the service of technology, science, busniness skills, etc. But the way to critique the blind adherence to the cult of skills is not to place Literature across its path and seek converts. We need, instead, to read literature with a sharpened understanding of how language works, how it is always already (oh, how I hate that phrase--but it didn't catch on for nothing) at work in us, and how our best writers reawaken the language for us (and that "us," Jordan, is distinctly up for grabs, since it remains to awaken). Jonathan Levin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:18:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: in the long run we are in inchoate agony? >Interesting to me are both this construction of "we" and the entitlement >that's claimed for "us". Who says "we" have anything even remotely >interesting to say to anyone not on this list (or even _on_ this list)? >That goes double for me. Or rather, can it be that the appropriate >responses to exaggerated claims for work/authors/times are exaggerated >insults to said work/authors/times.. > >I also think, Jonathan, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that you were >saying something closer to "the study of literature is the study of >language" not for purposes of subterfuge but for statement of principle? >That to dehistoricize the study of "language arts" is to abandon the dream >of an educated general public, to turn over composition wholesale to the >"writing process" and other charlatan plans? > >Or maybe it's a new year and we should all talk about how to run places >that we detest.. or talk about subjects we've suppressed.. or eat better.. >or enjoy the vibe set at the New Year's Day reading at St Marks.. anybody >out there make it by? Armand Schwerner's elegy for his son was beautiful, >Bruce Andrews was strangely composed, Gordon Gano (the Violent Femmes?) >sang, things ran ahead of schedule, Lisa Jarnot read well, anybody seen >Mitch Highfill's new book, Liquid Affairs, from United Artists? >surprisingly calm intense and funny, Richard Foreman seemd to be rhyming, >Lee Ann Brown did audience participation with fortune cookies, David >Shapiro read and then Daniel Shapiro read, Wanda Phipps' boyfriend Joel >Schlemowitz introduced a typewriter-clavier that he played Wanda's poem on >as she read, who else, somebody tell me, I was setting up and selling >books (two--Echolalia by George Tysh and, uh, a back issue of the World I >think.). You know, the idea of a community. It was calm. The room filled >up early. Jo Ann Wasserman and Brenda Coultas traded off on the mic, David >Nolan was jumpy on the soundboard, was the backbone of the event, NYOne >came through and filmed as Kathy Price was on, Dael Orlandersmith came on >through. Even people ordinarily associated with the two rival >NYearsday readings were milling around, chatting amiably. Anybody stay >late? I took off before 7:30.. > >Jordan > >PS anybody go to the marathon Stein reading at Paula Cooper? >Anybody feel things when they hear about "marathon readings"? Dear JOrdan- I think you miss my point. What are you going to do when unemployment hits 40%? Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:30:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: The English Dept. of the Soul and the New World Order >Does anyone else find it amusing that Dick Higgins is now embroiled >in a discussion on how to save the English Department? Is that our >job, Dick? And on the Poetics List, at that. > >In the last exchange on this question, someone suggested that budget >cuts limited our response. This is a pernicious misrepresentation of >the situation, and it demonstrates how thoroughly right wing ideology >has shaped the entire discussion of these issues. The dismantling of >the university as we have known it (which may or may not be a bad >thing) is part of a right wing political program masked behind the >rhetoric of economics. Accepting it as a budegetary problem is to >capitulate to the political agenda of those who are re-engineering the >institution to play a new role in the new, international economy. > >It's probably not salvagable. The private institutions will go on >serving big money, and the public institutions, drastically reduced in >scope and size, will increasingly fullfill a job training role. > >It may or may not be a bad thing because the University (including the >English Department of the Soul) has always served a disciplinary >function that the knee-jerk-neo-cons underestimate, and by dismantling >it, they are unleashing forces of resistance that otherwise were >harnassed to yet another Foucaultian reading of race-gender-cold-war >-ideology-blah-blah-blah in Betty Crocker cookbooks. Who knows how >that will fall out? But the last thing on my mind is worrying about >how to reorganize the English Dept. > >Hey, onward, as Creeley says. > >Mike >mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca Cher M. Boughn- Where did I say that I wanted to save English Departments as such. But I am interested in the language arts (among others) and this necessarily includes teaching them and scholarship in them. I want to think about what we will do when unemployment reaches 40% and not simply wait until it does. However I must say that most English profs are a lost cause, don't you agree? They can barely read for content and cannot think as clearly as their colleagues in other departments. It would be no great loss if most of them became plumbers, though, perhaps with the right training, some could be reeducated appropriately. It isn't their fault usually, as they often start out well enough, but between required courses, excessive paperwork and meetings (often in the name of democracy) and committees and understandably indifferentr students, they are usually ground down to mediocracy by the time they get their tenured status. I certainly don't trust them to notice the best writing around them, do you? Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:57:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco Subject: Help: Will Read Faerie Queen for Food Dick Higgins: Why 40% unemployment? Where does this number come from? At your first mention of it, I figured you were employing hyperbole or sarcasm. Responding to M. Boughn's post, however, 40% crops up again, and in a disturbing context, i.e., you say it as if you believe it. Silly as the figure itself is, there's a kind of logic inferred that "when it happens" the unemployed masses will register at universities on an unimaginable scale to become (what else?) "english majors," and thus learn from professors the skills that may saved them in the first place, but will certainly rescue them now. 40% !!!!!!! On a somewhat related topic, has anyone heard from the Wobblies (I.W.W.) in their area? They have a Web page which posts a new Preamble and Constitution dated 1/95. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:11:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Let's Keep it to Business Category: The water cooler is a great virtual space where you can ask questions, share information, share opinions, etc., with other employees. Corporate managers like myself use it as a temperature guage on issues that are important to the field. As we go more and more virtual, it provides tremendous value to all of us. But this is a PUBLIC place, not a private one, and as such some things are inappropriate to be said here. If something you are thinking about writing would offend someone (anyone) then it does not belong in this space. Likewise for personal agenda's or political commentaries. Let's reserve this space for appropriate business topics that may be of interest to everyone. Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:33:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: vitalism? ..PS reading at Ichor gallery Friday at 8:30 on the dot ..me Matthew Morse and Lee Ann Brown.. Jordan, where's the Ichor? You mean lately poetry has listened to the dr and had its blood let re: vitalism? Bill ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:53:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Let's Keep it to Business In-Reply-To: <960103111138_83059357@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "Bill Luoma" at Jan 3, 96 11:11:39 am > But this is a PUBLIC place, not a private one, and as such some things are > inappropriate to be said here. If something you are thinking about writing > would offend someone (anyone) then it does not belong in this space. > Likewise for personal agenda's or political commentaries. Let's reserve > this space for appropriate business topics that may be of interest to > everyone. What? Mike mbough@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS >Jordan, of course I like to have principle invoked in my name, though I >don't even know what you mean by subterfuge! Can I have 'em both at once? >Yes, I do think a principle is at stake, but that principle is >indistinguishable, for me, from what I think will work best in educating >students into the mysteries and pleasures and blind curves of language. I >think English and Comp Lit departments could be more effective in teaching >literature and basic skills if we recognized and nurtured their >affinities. When our graduate student-TAs have a grip on Ted Taylor's >logic and rhetoric model at Columbia, they do extraordinary things with >it--but most students are not trained to see the relationship between >logic and rhetoric and the kind of literary studies we practice on the >other end of the hall. Perhaps Marisa Januzzi, whom I once observed >teaching L & R, will chime in...? > >I agree, Dick, about "connections," though I suspect everyone teaching, >including everyone teaching courses like Wordsworth and the British >Romantics or Coleridge and the Penal Colony (I can't remember the 2nd >example you gave) would also agree: they'd just claim that their >connections were the more "vital" or "deeper" ones. Or perhaps, like >myself, they'd only say they were different connections, differently >meaningful. It's of course telling that you turn to Goethe (and I >appreciate the Emerson link, since Emerson is at the center of my current >book project, and I adore him, porcupine impossibility and all). On a >certain level, and especially for someone like Goethe, connection at some >point always implies a connection with Everything. Why should literature >departments reproduce the dream of an infinite grasp? Many people have >written and are writing on the historical horizon of the concept of >Literature, but, as my phrasing suggests, I find myself thinking most here >of Gadamer, in Truth and Method. The conception of literature, especially >as it is juxtaposed with the narrow science of medicine, doesn't satisfy >me: it reproduces divisions between art and science that, as I said about >literature and rhetoric in my previous post, make for bad thinking about >art (and, I'm convinced, though as a non-sceintist, about science). I >don't, I hasten to add, think that literature is a secondary activity at >the service of technology, science, busniness skills, etc. But the way to >critique the blind adherence to the cult of skills is not to place >Literature across its path and seek converts. We need, instead, to read >literature with a sharpened understanding of how language works, how it is >always already (oh, how I hate that phrase--but it didn't catch on for >nothing) at work in us, and how our best writers reawaken the language for >us (and that "us," Jordan, is distinctly up for grabs, since it remains >to awaken). > > >Jonathan Levin Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:12:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: WEB POETRY, RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ARTS DEPARTMENTS >Jordan, of course I like to have principle invoked in my name, though I >don't even know what you mean by subterfuge! Can I have 'em both at once? >Yes, I do think a principle is at stake, but that principle is >indistinguishable, for me, from what I think will work best in educating >students into the mysteries and pleasures and blind curves of language. I >think English and Comp Lit departments could be more effective in teaching >literature and basic skills if we recognized and nurtured their >affinities. When our graduate student-TAs have a grip on Ted Taylor's >logic and rhetoric model at Columbia, they do extraordinary things with >it--but most students are not trained to see the relationship between >logic and rhetoric and the kind of literary studies we practice on the >other end of the hall. Perhaps Marisa Januzzi, whom I once observed >teaching L & R, will chime in...? > >I agree, Dick, about "connections," though I suspect everyone teaching, >including everyone teaching courses like Wordsworth and the British >Romantics or Coleridge and the Penal Colony (I can't remember the 2nd >example you gave) would also agree: they'd just claim that their >connections were the more "vital" or "deeper" ones. Or perhaps, like >myself, they'd only say they were different connections, differently >meaningful. It's of course telling that you turn to Goethe (and I >appreciate the Emerson link, since Emerson is at the center of my current >book project, and I adore him, porcupine impossibility and all). On a >certain level, and especially for someone like Goethe, connection at some >point always implies a connection with Everything. Why should literature >departments reproduce the dream of an infinite grasp? Many people have >written and are writing on the historical horizon of the concept of >Literature, but, as my phrasing suggests, I find myself thinking most here >of Gadamer, in Truth and Method. The conception of literature, especially >as it is juxtaposed with the narrow science of medicine, doesn't satisfy >me: it reproduces divisions between art and science that, as I said about >literature and rhetoric in my previous post, make for bad thinking about >art (and, I'm convinced, though as a non-sceintist, about science). I >don't, I hasten to add, think that literature is a secondary activity at >the service of technology, science, busniness skills, etc. But the way to >critique the blind adherence to the cult of skills is not to place >Literature across its path and seek converts. We need, instead, to read >literature with a sharpened understanding of how language works, how it is >always already (oh, how I hate that phrase--but it didn't catch on for >nothing) at work in us, and how our best writers reawaken the language for >us (and that "us," Jordan, is distinctly up for grabs, since it remains >to awaken). > > >Jonathan Levin Dear Jonathan Levin: Please send me your e-mail address-iot seems I do not have it and I would like to remain in contact with you after I leave the POETICS BB, probably temporarily (I am going to a conference on visual poetry in Mexico and after that will have to do dumb stuff to survive for a bit. It will be close to Valentine's before I can log onto this one again. By the way, my grandfather (who was born in 1874) heard Emerson speak on his last tour of New England, circa 1885(?) and remembered surprisingly much of the experience. Maybe it isn't so surprising, since Emerson was a family model. In fact my grandmother, who came from Missouri, when she first visited the family before marrying my grandad, cazme down to her first breakfast and found the family sitting around a big table, eating fish chowder and arguing passionately about RWE. She burst into tears, feeling she had wandered into a madhouse, and ran back upstairs. It took her some time to get used to our now-vanished Yankee ways. Anyway, it makes RWE seem not so very long ago (and in another sense he really isn't, is he). Fluxily yours- Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:32:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Pterodactyls In-Reply-To: <199601030504.AAA15643@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> When it will be the fashion again we'll have trochees galore. Even the bellicose double-dactyl will flourish for a time, in Okefenokees of subjectivity. --John Ashbery _Can You Hear, Bird_ Trust Ashbery to remember to watch his feet in a swamp! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:44:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dick Higgins Subject: Re: Help: Will Read Faerie Queen for Food >Dick Higgins: > >Why 40% unemployment? Where does this number come from? At your first mention >of it, I figured you were employing hyperbole or sarcasm. Responding to M. >Boughn's post, however, 40% crops up again, and in a disturbing context, i.e., >you say it as if you believe it. Silly as the figure itself is, there's a kind >of logic inferred that "when it happens" the unemployed masses will register at >universities on an unimaginable scale to become (what else?) "english majors," >and thus learn from professors the skills that may saved them in the first >place, but will certainly rescue them now. > >40% !!!!!!! > >On a somewhat related topic, has anyone heard from the Wobblies (I.W.W.) in >their area? They have a Web page which posts a new Preamble and Constitution >dated 1/95. > > >daniel_bouchard@hmco.com Dear Daniel Bouchard: The 40% figure is one I have heard several times as a projection. Maybe the editors of CHALLENGE, the Economics magazine from Rutgers (which is pretty much cutting edge). It is usually cited as a result of the anti-liberal (I shudder to call them conservative) dismissal of Lord Keynes's insights as "liberal theory." They are theory in the sense of being underlying principles, like the theory of gravity, not in the colloquial sense of "I have a theory about sao-and-so." And they are not particularly liberal either. THe main one which is scary here is the notion underlying "trickle-down" wealth politics that if the rich prosper, they will pull along the rest of us, so their taxes can and should be lowered. The problem is, in microcosm, that while the rich can indeed buy food and necessities and can also buy luxuries the making of which create jobs, when they prosper they do not eat more food and consume more basics while at the same time there is a ceiling on the number of yachts which they can buy. The result is that ordinary people, who proportionately must pay more of the tax load, certainly are not about to buy yachts and must eventually be left without food and necessities, which creates a terrible downward spiral in the economy as a whole, a "crisis of production," as they say, in other words a depression. Our problem is that our social net is being removed and there is insufficient support for stiffening Clinton's wobbly resistance to removing it. Further, the Republicans steamroller tactics and vast wealth and their focus on ballancing the budget, as if we were talking about a home economics situation. Daddies and mommies or other forms of family don't usually think of their children or partners as their market, and so the oft-cited parallel between a home budget and a national one simply does not apply., because of these things and the Republicans believing their own propoganda, we are not likely to be able to install a new set of safety nets as rapidly as we did in 1932, so our unemployment will probably approach 40%, as it did in the 1870's, rather than only 27% as it did in our so-called "Great Depression." Well, when that happens people will learn what art is for (I believe though I cannot prove that). But that will be small consolation. Besides I will probably be among the next to be homeless, being 58 and perenially "overqualified" for every job I apply for. Sincerely Dick Higgins P O Box 27 Barrytown, NY 12507 Tel- (914) 758-6488 Fax- (914) 758-4416 e-mail- dhiggins@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Hey, Al Cook In-Reply-To: <960103113331_83069194@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Bill Luoma" at Jan 3, 96 11:33:32 am Hey Al Cook, I think yer on this thing and I need yer address. Would you email it to me? Thanks, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:37:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: WEB POETRY Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote: >Using the net to communicate has advantages; but currently it is also >expensive, >difficult and inconvenient. I know it is a kind of prejudice, but I don't think anyone who uses CompuServe with a slow modem can be considered an authority on the cost of using the internet. Please do not misread this as a flame. I feel an intense concern about the scams that are going down around the internet. Ken, you are being robbed! Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:55:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: vitalism? At 12:36 AM 1/3/96 -0500, you wrote: > er--I lost my harmonica....c It's all right, Chris, it's just somethin' you learnt over in England. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:00:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: MLA Doings? In-Reply-To: Hello all, Good times at MLA: it was nice to meet Charles, and Marjorie, and Aldon, and Doug Messerli, and Albert Mobilio, and others there. (Sorry I missed you maria d.). I was sick part of the time, and unable to see many good-sounding talks. I was also interviewing and particularly lousy times. Anyway. . . . Several good papers/panels: one of the best was not "read" but rather talked in the manner of a scientific paper, summarized due to a lack of time, making a virtue of necessity, by Ming-Quin Ma at Stanford. Is he on this list? If not, why not? The paper in question was "'Not quite that': Smithson, Scalapino, and the Poetics of Aeolotropy." I would love a copy. Another good panel: the Rothenberg/Joris discussion almost at the end of the conference, with good comments also by Jed Rasula, on POEMS FOR THE MILLENIUM. Very informative. Outside the conference there was a wonderful reading by Douglas Messerli and Charles Bernstein at the City Gallery of Contemporary Art. I can't rightly evaluate my own panel, but I remain inordinately fond of my talk (on Bourdieu and poetic value). It was disheveled but fun to give, shocking certain folks in the audience. The other paper (on Paul Monette) was so different it was almost comic, yet it actually made for good discussion. I will send a disk version to the EPC if an archive is really being prepared. Anybody who wants a hard copy can email me with snail-mail address -- I've copies aplenty. (Those who have already asked for it will receive soon). Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:16:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: The English Dept. of the Soul and the New World Order well i feel a bit caught in this recent exchange, for several reasons... first, i'm not interested really in saving anguish depts. anymore than i am in saving souls... don byrd's ostensibly utopian urging is right on target---let's mix the anguish folks, like moi, with, say, falafelsers, er, i mean, let's see if we can talk to one another (doesn't the network suggest such linkages?)... as to separating anguish lit. from comp., this point has been covered/resisted well, but i could offer a bit more about my situation here at iit---- gnaw... anyway, i figger that since i'm connected to the anguish profession i have an obligation to make it better... however complex this latter may be in actuality i'll say it again---i just wanna make it better--teaching, publishing whatever... b/c i figger what i do has *some* blasted thing to do with making things better in general, even if i have to give something of mself... not to say that i don't wish to make my own life better somehow... and of course i don't believe that the singular motive for one's contributions should be making things better... it's just one motive, one that operates once in a while... that sd, i may as well say right upfront that i'm interested to a point in marxist style-class-based-market-economy institutional analysis--TO A POINT... past a certain, usually vulgar point i prefer to eat a peach, and wear my trousers unrolled... to be explicit just for a sec: i don't like it when folks tell me they aspire to NO class consciousness... i feel like simultaneously laughing and throwing up... and me, i like my bananas nice and yellow... it's the same with dis/agreement---seems to me there's a binary here worth getting through... yeah, sure, there are more important things than changing the anguish profession... but changing the anguish profession, or making more room for art (yknow---art? that pain in the ass), or cleaning the fridge may be damned important things... depends on where one is... and yeah sure, what of it that lots of folks in these parts are anguish profs?... i mean, that's part of *this* scene, *this* situation... one might expect it to work its way into the discussion, much as one might expect talk of emedia to proliferate around here from time to time... just a few noninklings, as per... best, bset, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: MLA Doings? sorry i missed u 2, david kellogg --got stuck at mlg party in one of those mla moments when there're 5 parties going on that one (I) wants to go to and one goes to the first one and can't move...i too spent much time sleeping (sick) and/or at the glorious gym attatched to the hyatt regency. hung w/ pierre and jerry a bit (by the end of the conference was referring to ben and jerry's anthology), saw a so-so panel on ethnicity, a splendid panel on theorizing 'jews'/theorizing as jews, chaired a pretty good panel on Beat writing (featuring our own La Lindberg asking the musical question "what can Black Power learn from surrealism?") and participated in an okay but overall perfunctory panel on anthologies (crack of dawn on the last day of panel), not one of my more inspired moments, apologies to all. oh well. got to plug walter lew's anthology Premonitions and mark nowak's North American Ideophonics, and give Ben and Jerry's some detailed (if somewhat critical though mostly enthusiastic) airtime. rasula's more inspired invective drew most of the audience and respondent response, which is as it should be. got elected to the jewish cultural studies discussion group steering committee or whatever those bodies are called, saw and/or hung with buddies and/or professional inspirations charles bernstein, daniel and jonathan boyarin, biodun iginla, paula rabinowitz, john mowitt, amitava kumar, judith halberstam, carol mason, michael bibby, ronna johnson, barry watten, lisa samuels, von hallberg, golding and steve dickison (sp?), met doug messerli who grabbed my hand and kissed it and thanked me for ordering so many of his books for my courses (that was a thrill), susan schultz (at last), juliana spahr, michael boughn, lynn keller, steve evans, johanna drucker, romana huk, kali tal (at last) etc etc. coffee house press dropped my essay from the forthcoming Bob Kaufman selected, without telling me. asked alan kornblum about it, he hemmed and hawed, but it was nice to see him anyway. feel hurt and kinda mad. there was no contract so i have no recourse, but i worked hard on revising my old kaufman piece for the book and was looking forward to a wider Beat renaissance readership than the academic crowd who might have seen it in south atlantic quarterly or in my bk. ate "naturelle cuisine" lo-cal food at the hotel restaurant excpt for one divine prime rib the size of a private yacht at the Erie Cafe and an armenian ? meal after charles and doug's reading. sorry to have missed kellog, michael greer, joe amato, marisa januzzi and more others. nearly died with pleasure and gratitude when a grad student stopped me in the book exhibit and said, i just want to tell you how much your work means to me. told my beloved editor at UMN press, who responded, well, it hasn't translated into sales, i can tell you that. right now radio playing dylan don't think twice it's all right, nearly split in two by that melancholy nostalgia his voice and sensitive meanness inspires, recovering from mla which also inspires a crazed yearning nostalgia for someting (community?) that never existed in the fullness which my imagination pretends. so long, y'all, i'm a thinkin and a wonderin all the way down the road, what does the new year bring, and what are we leaving anyway. maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:01:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: The English Dept. of the Soul and the New World Order Thanks, joe amato, for a good-sense statement about how you feel about all this english/anguish. I'm not in it, but I'm all for one who wants to make it better some or any of the time. All the time would probably be too much, aspiring to that NO class consciousness that makes you want to laugh & throw up (me, too, although sometimes I admire a "no class" consciousness, and I think very highly of the "no mind" Zen state). But even though I agree with you there, I have to say that I like my bananas still just a touch firm, just before they begin to soften. And I like banana popsicles, always have. >that sd, i may as well say right upfront that i'm interested to a point in >marxist style-class-based-market-economy institutional analysis--TO A >POINT... past a certain, usually vulgar point i prefer to eat a peach, and >wear my trousers unrolled... to be explicit just for a sec: i don't like >it when folks tell me they aspire to NO class consciousness... i feel like >simultaneously laughing and throwing up... and me, i like my bananas nice >and yellow... it's the same with dis/agreement---seems to me there's a >binary here worth getting through... charles ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 01:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: vitalism? Steve---but I've never been to england people tell me i was born there but i really don't remember.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 01:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: MLA Doings? thanks for the report Maria and glad it was not totally impersonal... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 02:42:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: The English Dept. of the Soul and the New World Order >I want to think about what we will do when unemployment reaches 40% and not simply >wait until it does. Believe there are large parts of the globe where it has. NAFTA, GATT, etc. are simply extensions of this to "developed" countries. Though many of those jobs being scrambled for are 10 cents an hour, if you meet a quota. Seems we are at a point technologically where unemployment could be a goal rather than a pox, & at a point politically where all the goals are poxes. --R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:08:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Roberson I echo Aldon's comments on Roberson. Truly a beautiful book (well worth reading for the next millenium). Been hearing his voice in Hambone for some years (anywhere else?), and found it continually captivating, attuned, inexhaustible. So wonderful to have it collected... The price I paid was $10.95 (well worth it): ...we are right only to what we give birth to, anyhow, we are correct only within what we create... ... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 02:58:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: WEB POETRY Over half of the world's population lives more than two hours travel from the nearest phone line. The book will continue to be the point of reference for at least the next 50 years, perhaps the next 100. The communications potential of this medium is real, but both utopian and dystopian claims need to be examined with great care. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 03:09:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: WEB POETRY Thanks, Dick, for telling us what we should be discussing and the meaning of poetics. However, as to your prediction, "Frankly, I dislike the web-but I must live with it. As for access, it will be even more accessible as web machines become more common-Sun is the only one making and selling one now, but every manufacturer has one "in the tube" (literally). Those will cost ca. US$550-an amount comparable to a video player here and presumably the same, comparably, in the UK." You heard it here first. That's an idea that will be as popular as the Edsel. Like re-inventing the monograph record. Also, that's about 3 times the cost of a decent video player. I wonder just how many stupid consumers there are out there and my guess is not that many. Remember, all the new developments get adopted in the home first. One year ago, the Pentium was a chip sold 95% of the time to home users. Windows 95 is a home OS right now. It will begin to reach critical mass in the corporate environment maybe a year from now. But then Sun was the company that invented the program Java originally to allow for remote control of coffee pots (10 years ago, in fact). Talk about the law of unintended consequences.... Now that's poetics, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:29:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: WEB POETRY In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:37:58 -0500 from Michael Boughn: Tried to write you directly, but must have gotten your electronic address 'wrong' and had already shredded the document. Apologies to all others. I don't know if Al Cook is on the Poetics List. If he is, he'll likely try to contact you directly. If he's not on the list, here are two methods for contact: Albert_Cook@Brown.edu Albert Cook, Professor Emeritus Box E Brown University Providence RI 02912 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:09:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: WEB POETRY On Wed 3 Jan Peter Landers wrote: "I know it is a kind of prejudice, but I don't think anyone who uses CompuServe with a slow modem can be considered an authority on the cost of using the internet. Please do not misread this as a flame. I feel an intense concern about the scams that are going down around the internet. Ken, you are being robbed! Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com" Gee, I'm so embarrassed to be caught out using non state of the art kit. No wonder I can't get dates with girls. Actually I have a 14,400-thingy modem which was pretty much state of the art when I bought it but I suppose is rubbish now. In fact, I'm fairly happy with CompuServe, using it mostly for e-mail, and I don't consider the $10 monthly minimum charge (which I rarely exceed) too bad. It has a nice easy Macintosh interface which suits technological dimbos like me. But the point I was making was: anyone wanting to get on the internet from scratch has to invest in a decent computer, software, modem, printer and subscription to some kind of online service provider. That's thousands of pounds/dollars worth of investment - and it's not that easy to decide what to get and how to set it up when you get it. In my case, I already had the computer and printer, because I need them for my work - but I have plenty of friends who don't even have a computer. (Others, including many on this list, use the facilities at their place of work, eg college.) As for my parents and their generation... forget it, the whole thing's a foreign country to them. I'm neither an "authority" on the internet nor a technophobe - just living in the real world! Cheers, Ken "don't send me no 3-meg graphics" Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:36:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: WEB POETRY In-Reply-To: <960104170901_100344.2546_EHQ31-1@CompuServe.COM> Well, when I began moderating I was using an XT two years ago, running at 4.33 mhz with 1 megabyte ram and a 20 megabyte hard-drive; the modem was 9600. The point is that if you use Unix shell or other text-based inter- faces, it costs very little (the XT was $100 and the on-line cost was $15 or so a month). This is an important point because for example I'm working with conferencing people at this point - and the Web _is_ basically expensive, awkward, non-interactive in spite of Java, and requires high-speed hookup, etc. Which separates people even more. The reasonable temporarly solution is lowest common denominator, unless we're restricting ourselves to the upper middle classes - look at Prodigy or Web demographics and you'll see what I mean. Don't forget that even on the Web, Lynx is the second most popular browser next to Netscape. There are areas in which hookup, if possible at all, is at 300 baud during certain (somewhat flickering, random) hours of the day. Alan ( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:15:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: The Anguish Dept. Joe Amato wrote: >and yeah sure, what of it that lots of folks in these parts are anguish >profs?... i mean, that's part of *this* scene, *this* situation... one >might expect it to work its way into the discussion, much as one might >expect talk of emedia to proliferate around here from time to time... Thanks Joe! I can't stand it when people just say "Talk about something different" but don't suggest a topic. I found I disagreed with Don Byrd (unusual) because to me it's the readers that determine the canon. College teachers can only get people to take courses that they want to take, and libraries sell off books that aren't read. OTOH, I would take just about any course Byrd offered. Ever since I read his book on Olson and heard his "Dimestore" he's been one of my faves. I have him batting cleanup in my starting lineup, but I put him at third base. (He has the scars to prove it I'm sure.) Sorry to talk about you in the third person, Don. I'm also interested only in making "it" better, which, coincidentally, includes all of humanity reading poetry I like (and my poetry too, ((to be honest.))) Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:34:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: WEB POETRY This is Dodie Bellamy speaking. For a change of pace in web reading, the cover story I wrote for the San Diego Reader on religious cults in San Diego is now posted at http://www.inlink.com/~rife/sdra.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:32:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: The Anguish Dept. Well, if you (Pete Landers) hate it when people say talk about something different but then fail to suggest a TOPIC, don't you also hate it when people say "read my poetry" and then don't post at least one poem on the list. Yours, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:41:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: yes, we have no bananas... charles a., yes, perhaps a touch firm... i like banana popsicles too, and orange popsicles esp., remind me of summer... maria d., sorry i didn't get to meet you f2f, though i'm certain we were sharing the same space (kass and i were at the ncte and rothenberg/joris parties, unfortunately scheduled at the same time, though fun to be at both and chat with so many nice folks)... pete l., thanx for the kind words... yknow, seems to me that though readers may make the canon (to which "which readers?"). the canonical impulse is another matter... preservation (and conservation) is one of the chief aims of traditional humanism, as i understand same... which suggests a basic reason why the academic world is in such a huff over the gradual demise of the old world disorder---many folks see such change as positively correlated with loss... similar backdrop to much of the resistance to emedia---the "loss" of print (when in fact digital technologies may represent the best way to keep alla those musty old tomes around in one form or another)... ah well... i guess we're creatures of habit in so many ways... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: The Anguish Dept. In-Reply-To: On Thu, 4 Jan 1996, Landers wrote: > I found I disagreed with Don Byrd (unusual) because to me it's the readers > that determine the canon. College teachers can only get people to take courses > that they want to take, and libraries sell off books that aren't read. OTOH, Good lord! what did I say, or seem to say? It must have been my comments about keeping the archive that were misunderstood. I did not mean to imply a restrictive archive. University libraries should try to archive every thing, every zine, every tape of every poetry reading, and university faculties should mostly try to figure out how to organize the stuff in the archive for maximus use.(Teaching is the generally the wrong concept; they should lead their students on trips into the archive.) I don't necessarily mean stuffy librarianship. My _Dimestore_ which Pete kindly mentions is an essay in how to access the archive. It's amazing how much yatter English departments occasion on the list. Here and there one finds interesting people in them, but generally speaking English departments are dinosaurs, and most of the attempts to discover some contemporary relevancy in them have lacked all conceptual depth and, for the most part, they have lacked adequate information as well... It seem likely to me, at this point, if there is something to be found in the archive or some new combination of things that might relieve the extremity of our condition, the last place your likely to hear about it will be in an English department. (Of course, I do not include those of us on this list who are in English departments in this blatant generalization. But it is almost certain that to the extent that someone knows something, English departments will try to prevent them from teaching it, and if they publish something that is not a rehash of the discourse of the day, English departments are likely not to recognize its value....) When Jack Spicer talked about the English department of the soul, he surely meant that one corner of the soul that is beyond salvation. And I say all of this without sour grapes. I mean, I have no personal grouch. The university has been generally good to me. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:36:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: The Anguish Dept. A story with a little relevance to the current discussion. When I was an undergraduate at Sydney Uni (years and years ago) there was an active poetry society which ran regular readings on campus. More the most part these readings were lively events which blew a breath of contemporary fresh air into the ivy covered stone walls. On a few occasions, however, poets where prevented from entering the campus by the security guards on the gates for various reasons (the proper procedure for bringing a car onto campus had not been followed -ie the academic who had signed the form was not of a high enough level . Interestingly, business people driving expensive modern cars who where going to Economics of the Business school did not seem to face the same problem as poets driving twenty year old rust buckets). On one particular occasion a fight broke out between a poet and the guard. Instead of reading to eager undergraduates the poet ended up at the local police station. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:51:44 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: MLA Doings? Comments: To: David Kellogg On 3 Jan 96 at 16:00, David Kellogg wrote: > Smithson, Scalapino, and the Poetics of Aeolotropy." I would love a copy. "Aeolotropy"? The tendency of poets to gravitate to America Online? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:51:44 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: question rerenga Comments: To: Jordan Davis On 2 Jan 96 at 21:50, Jordan Davis wrote: > Just wondering if the once or twice bruited (sp?) > renga hypertext ever got started? Well, I haven't gotten off my posterior and done it. I should look at doing so (since I suggested it) if no one else is going to take up da gauntlet. Anyone know the range of dates/digests in which the renga flourished on this list, off hand? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:51:44 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Let's Keep it to Business Comments: To: Bill Luoma On 3 Jan 96 at 11:11, Bill Luoma wrote: > But this is a PUBLIC place, not a private one, and as such some things are > inappropriate to be said here. If something you are thinking about writing > would offend someone (anyone) then it does not belong in this space. > Likewise for personal agenda's or political commentaries. Let's reserve > this space for appropriate business topics that may be of interest to > everyone. Business? Which business? Academics? The construction of books? Theory? Poetry performance? Grocery stores? And I can think of little that can be send about anything that would not have any chance of offending somebody. ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:06:38 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Poetry & that horrid Web I've just a few comments in response to some of the more sceptical posts regarding the Web, including Alan Sondheim's: >the Web _is_ >basically expensive, awkward, non-interactive in spite of Java, and >requires high-speed hookup, etc. Which separates people even more. The >reasonable temporarly solution is lowest common denominator, unless we're >restricting ourselves to the upper middle classes - look at Prodigy or >Web demographics and you'll see what I mean. Don't forget that even on >the Web, Lynx is the second most popular browser next to Netscape. I'd suggest that, first of all, once one is talking about people with computers, let alone Net or Web access, one is already dealing with those either in a high-income bracket or with institutional resources. On the other hand, most of those institutions (such as public libraries) offering free public access to the net have been encouraged by the ease with which the technically-challenged can use the Web. Not many people without a specialist education would be interested in hacking away with Unix commands on a public terminal, but the Web's graphical appeal has opened up the Internet to a wider range of people, especially in the arts. I'd concede that the Web has poor interactivity in the context of conferencing, but it is already more interactive than television or print media. Methods such as Usenet or IRC are more interactive than the Web, but only if you are dealing with plain text. People with interests in visual or audio information must resort to other methods, and it's interesting that the new forms of multimedia activity (such as RealAudio & VRML) are all using the Web as a starting point. Web browsers already bring together the older Net technologies (Gopher, FTP, Telnet et al), and HTML has become such a useful and popular way of visualising the Internet that I think the Web will be at the core of any new developments. Someone else said that the Web was boring, it was just like TV. Well, I'd admit that most of what's on the Web these days is rubbish, but then, as someone whose name escapes me at the moment said, "90% of everything is crap". And one way that the Web has it all over TV is that you can choose what you want to browse, when you want to. With one's bookmarks or homepage one can essentially weave one's own little "sub-web": the Web for me essentially consists of poetry, criticism, wine reviews, my favourite bands, art galleries, great utilities to download, hypertext fiction and philosphy. The multitude of crass adverts, dull personal pages and Doom FAQs might as well not exist, unless I have a reason to go searching for them. The most exciting thing about the Web, I think, is global hypertext. When I write a piece of criticism for a journal, then put it on my Web pages, I do Lycos or Inktomi searches on some of the key names and phrases in the article and add hyperlinks to the best resources that I find. For example, in a review of books by the Wellington poets Dinah Hawken and James Brown, I was able to place links to information on Sappho, Ghalib, Bukowski, Laurie Anderson, Ron Silliman & Roland Barthes among others. For readers of pages that have been thoughtfully and generously hyperlinked, there _is_ a kind of interactivity: the paths that one cuts through cyberspace can be seen as creative acts. It will take a long, long time for the majority of people to have net access, and some areas, in particular those such as literature that have been traditionally technophobic, will take longer than others. That's why there's a need for interfaces between the Web and local arts communities (for example, journals that publish print and electronic versions in parallel). There are exciting international electronic communities of artists developing, but it's dangerous to insulate oneself from more traditional communities. Cheers, Tom Beard. (P.S. The Web browser that I use most often is Lynx: we are a branch office, and connect to the Internet via a sloooww link to Wellington, so Mosaic etc are out of the question. The Web journal that I'm designing is being optimised for Netscape - 65% of web users use Netscape, and most others use browsers that support tables etc. For the 5% or so of us (that's the latest statistic that I've come across) using Lynx, I'm still making sure that everything is legible, even if it's not pretty. There's nothing I hate more than following a promising link to a page that is blank apart from [ISMAP] in the top left corner. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:54:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: RESTRUCTURING LANGUAGE ART Always thought one could do an interesting course focused explicitly around the work of Emerson Blake and Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Poetry & that horrid Web In-Reply-To: <96010501063830@met.co.nz> In response I just want to point out there are a _lot_ of people with 286s or 386s out there with slow modems; these computers also seep down the economic scale - and they're really not particularly Web capable. I think the Web, VRML, etc., is divisive at the moment. A lot of areas in the world, as I pointed out, don't have high-speed modem capability, and they're completely excluded. And we can either accept de facto that the Web is for the privileged or we can try and work with Unix _and_ the Web and in fact become involved politically with the issue in a whole lot of ways. As far as interactivity goes, yes, Netscape's great at calling up any- thing. But telnet isn't part of the Web of course; either are ftp and gopher - they're called up in Netscape through conforming URLs. And the interesting interactive clients - say MIRC, Global Chat, CuSeeMe, ThePalace, all are off-Web; they may use the Web for addressig (as Powwow does) but they basically run their own software through the TCP/IP stack. Finally, there's also the psychological effect of constant engorgement of audio/video/clients (I've been writing a lot about this) which then ties arts and literatures into issues of _development,_ and I find that problematic; don't forget that even hypertext is mediated by corporate development - this medium is overdetermined by capital whether we like it or not. Alan ( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:48:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: January Happenings 2/2 COMPETITIONS NOVEMBER 95 TO JANUARY 96 AUSWRITE SHORT STORY COMPETITION Entries will be accepted from November to January with results published in March 1995. (No details provided on prizes). $5 entry fee per story. Limit 2,000 words. For details and entry forms contact Auswrite, PO Box 327 Mascot NSW 2020. 24-26 JANUARY: TAMWORTH BUSH POETRY COMPETITION Organised by the Tamworth Poetry Reading group for poems written and read or recited by the writer at the Tamworth Music Festival. For entry form send SSAE and addition stamp to the NSW Writers Centre PO Box 1056 Rozelle NSW 2039. 31 JANUARY 1995 THE PAUL JOHN STATHAM MEMORIAL SCIENCE FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION COMPETITION For a story between 3,000 and 5,000 words. 1st prize $2,000, two runners-up $200 each. Entry fee $5 per entry, no limit. For information send SSAE and addition stamp to the NSW Writers Centre PO Box 1056 Rozelle NSW 2039. 31 JANUARY DAHLIA AND ARTS FESTIVAL LITERARY COMPETITION Prizes $200 and $100 for short stories, and $200 for poetry and bush verse, plus certificates. For information and entry forms send SSAE to Literary Committee, 99 Victoria Street Eaglehawk VIC 3556, or call (054) 46 8240 after hours. 31 JANUARY MAKING FRIENDS FIRST WRITING COMPETITION A fund raising project to purchase recreational equipment for children of low income or solo parents. Short stories up to 1,000 words and poems up to 30 lines on the theme of personal relationships. No limit to the number of entries, entry fee is $3 (per short story), $2 (per poem). Prizes - $50 best short story, $25 for best poem and 6 merit awards in each section. Entries may be selected for a future anthology. For information and entry forms send SSAE to Making Friends, PO Box 422, Elizabeth SA 5112. 31 JANUARY: SILVEREVE SHORT STORY AWARD 1996 Short stories to 2500 words. 1st prize: $2500, 2nd prize: $1000, 3rd prize: $1000, 4th and 5th prizes: $500 - plus trophy. Entrants must be over 16 years of age. Open theme. No faxed entries. No entry form required. $20 entry fee each story. Cheque/money order payable to Silvereve Publications.. Limit of 2 entries per person. Results published in The Australian newspaper. Entries sent to: Teresa Henley, Award Co-ordinator, Silvereve Publications, PO Box 42, Kings Meadows Tasmania 7249. 10 FEBRUARY: TOP DOG JOURNAL ANNUAL SHORT STORY & POETRY COMPETITION. Short story to 1200 words, poems to A4 length. Must be about dogs. Attach signed statement: 'I am happy for this entry to be published should it receive an award in the Top Dog Journal'. State age if under 21. Top Dog Journal, PO Box 29, Berwick Vic 3806. 27th FEBRUARY BRONZE SWAGMAN AWARD FOR BUSH VERSE. Prize: Bronze Statuette of the Swagman designed and sculptured by Daphne Mayo, value $2,500, plus a Winton Boulder Opal value $250. Verse in traditional Australian form, must have an Australian bush theme. 1300 words max. Details and entry form, send SSAE to The Secretary, Winton Tourist Promotion Association, PO Box 44, Winton Qld. 4735. Tel: (076)571502. 29 FEBRUARY HARPER COLLINS FICTION AWARD (Formerly the Angus & Robertson Fiction Prize). Prize %10,000. For a first novel, the prize money represents an advance on first publication rights for publication. All entries must be accompanied by an entry form and $20 entry fee. Entry forms available from The National Book Council, Suite 3/21 Drummond Place Carlton Victoria 3053. Ph 03 9663 8655 or fax 9663 8658. 2 MARCH EASTWOOD HILLS FAW 1996 GOLDEN SLIPPER DAY SHORT STORY COMPETITION Theme: Golden Slipper Horse Racing Festival. First $150 Second $50. 2500 words maximum. Entry fee $3 per entry. Cheques payable to Eastwood Hills FAW. For information sheet send SSAE to: Competition Secretary, Eastwood Hills FAW, PO Box 4663, North Rocks NSW 2151. No entry form required. Phone enquiries: Denise Aldridge (02) 871 7630 before 9 pm. 29 MARCH FROM THE LAKE EYRE BASIN 1996 WRITING COMPETITION 1st prize $500. Any genre accepted. Contact Arts West, 17 Shamrock Street Blackall, Qld 4472 for details and entry forms. 3lst: KARRINYUP WRITERS' CLUB 10TH ANNIVERSARY COMP Short stories to 2000 words, poetry to 60 lines. Entry fee $3 each entry. Prizes $100, $50, $25 each category. Winning entries to be published in an Anthology. Send SSAE to Comp. Sec. 16 Penlea Glade, Kiara WA 6054. 31 MARCH WANNABEE PUBLISHING SHORT STORY COMP Wannabee Publishing, a new small publisher whose aim is to encourage unpublished writers, is holding a Short Story Competition. Open theme to 3000 words. First prize $100, Second $50, Two Highly Commended certificates. Prize winning entries will be published in a short story collection mid 1996. Entry fee $5 per entry. For entry form send SSAE to Competition, Wannabee Publishing, PO Box 21, California Gully Vic. 3356. 10 APRIL SOCIETY OF WOMEN WRITERS NSW INC SHORT STORY COMPETITION Prize $500. Entry forms (entry fee $3) from SWW, GPO Box 1388, Sydney NSW 2001. Details ph (02) 417 4842. 16 APRIL HENRY LAWSON SOCIETY OF NSW ADULT LITERARY AWARDS Short story and poetry awards. 1st prize $200, 2nd prize $100, 3rd prize book in each category. For entry form and conditions send SSAE to the secretary, Henry Lawson Society of NSW Inc, PO Box 235, Gulgong NSW 2852. Details Chris Cooke (063) 74 1668. TASMANIAN TRADES AND LABOUR COUNCIL 1996 MAY DAY SHORT STORY COMPETITION For a short story on a theme "Working lives' For details and entry forms contact Chris Trousselot (002) 287 866). 30 JUNE STRAND MAGAZINE'S FIRST POETRY COMPETITION Publication to the first (best?) ten poems, 2,500 pounds in prizes or equivalent in US $. 500 lines maximum. For entry forms send two international reply coupons to Strand Magazine, 179 Wingrove Road Newcastle upon Tyne NE 4 9DA, UK. 31 JULY NEW YOUTH LITERATURE SCHOLARSHIPS As part of the 1997 Youth Arts Scholarship program, the Independent Art Foundation Literature Scholarship and the Colin Thiele Literature Scholarship, each worth $6,000, will be offered annually to young South Australian writers to further their professional development and training. Interested young writers should contact Judy Potter, Director of Carclew Youth Arts Centre on ph (08) 267 5111 for further information. NO CLOSING DATE PROVIDED - SAYN X-PRESSION LITERARY COMPETITION This Literary competition for 12-25 year olds opens on 10 January and welcomes entries in the area of prose, poetry, script and song (no more than 1000 words). Prizes will be offered in all categories and writers may also have the opportunity to read their work on radio. For more information tune into SAYN X-PRESS, Fridays between 6.30 & 7.30pm on radio 5UV. NO CLOSING DATE PROVIDED ARTERY DEVELOPMENT GRANTS Up to $500 is available towards projects in any artform for young people under 26 years. These grants are available to those who have not received grants previously. Contact Virginia at Carclew on phone (08) 267 5111 for further information. Artery is a unique project of Carclew Youth Arts Centre. *********************************************************** CONFERENCES The Association for the Study of Australian Literature and the Library Society present: Words and Music The Metcalfe Room, State Library of NSW, Saturday 3rd February, 1996 10.30 am Registrations and morning tea 11.00 Helen Hewson 'Musical Settings of John Shaw Neilson's poetry' 11.40 Marie Louise Ayres ' "Nim's Springtime Song": Dorothy Hewett as songmaker' 12.20pm Mandy Dyson 'Renegotiating the Australian Legend: "Khe Sanh" and the Jimmy Barnes Stage Persona' 1.00 LUNCH 2.00 Belinda McKay 'Songs without Words: The Encoding of Literary Ideas into Music; Hazel Smith 'The Interchange between Musical and Literary ideas in poetry and performance texts' 3.00 Sound and text: Performance by austraLYSIS Registration includes morning tea and a light lunch Members of ASAL or The Library Society $35 Non-members $40 Unwaged $15 Please send cheques payable to the Library Society to: The Library Society, State Library of NSW, Macquarie St. SYDNEY 2000 by 25th January, 1996. AUSTRALIAN STUDIES AND THE SHRINKING PERIPHERY: SURFING THE NET FOR AUSTRALIA. The Centre for Australian Studies in Wales, University of Wales, Lampeter, are hosting this conference next year. Organisers are calling for papers. "In recent years the consolidation of Europe into the 15 states of the EU, the integration of east and west within Europe, and the progressive turning of Australia to its own Pacific backyard have furthered the impression of periphery: one world's edge looking distantly at the other." The contacts are: Dr Graham Sumner and Dr Andrew Hassam Centre for Australian Studies in Wales University of Wales, Lampeter Dyfed, SA48 7ED, Wales, UK. Telephone: Graham Sumner +44 (0) 1570 424760 or 424790 (secretary) Fax: +44 (0) 1570 424714 Andrew Hassam +44 (0) 1570 424764 (secretary) Fax +44 (0) 1570 423634 E-mail: sumner@lamp.ac.uk or alh@www.lamp.ac.uk Further information will be sent when available, and will appear on the Centre's WWW home-page (htp://www.lamp.ac.uk/oz). 3rd International/Australian Conference: Religion Literature and the Arts. 18 - 21 January 1996 Sancta Sophia College, University of Sydney. Invited speakers include: Karen Armstrong - a well known broadcaster from the UK and author of a number of books including The Gospel According to Woman, Tongues of Fire (an anthology of religious poetry) and A History of God, Professor Peter Steele SJ - professor of English, University of Melbourne and a poet and critic, Professor Elizabeth Isichei - Professor of Religious Studies, University of Otago New Zealand. She has written widely on African history and religion and, more recently, on religion and art in New Zealand, Nigel Butterley - a well known composer, Professor David Parker - Professor of English at the Australian Catholic University and Al Zolynas - a San Diego based poet. There will also be a Women's Artists' Forum with artists Kate Briscoe, Liz Coates and others and a Writers Forum including Rae Desmond Jones, Sara Dowse and others. Wing-It! Performance Ensemble from San Francisco (Phil Porter & Cynthia Winton- Henry). Cost - Registration, including meals $160 (conc $130), Conference dinner $30. Accommodation is available in Sancta Sophia College at $40 per night including breakfast. For further information contact Dr Michael Griffith, Department of Literature and Languages, Australian Catholic University, 179 Albert Road Strathfield NSW 2135. Phone (02) 7392192, Fax (02) 7392105. 3RD NATIONAL WOMEN IN PUBLISHING CONFERENCE. To be held in Sydney on 23 March 1996. Details ph Anne Reily (02) 690 6951. 1996 CONFERENCE OF THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR AUSTRALIAN LITERARY STUDIES The 1996 conference of the American Association for Australian Literary Studies will be held at Humboldt State University, California, from April 18-21, 1996. Papers of 20 minutes' duration on any Australian literary or cultural subject are welcome. For more information, please write: Professor Jack Turner, Department of English, Humboldt State University, Arcata, CA 95521, USA; e-mail turnerj@axe.humboldt.edu 1996 NATIONAL CHILDREN'S BOOK COUNCIL OF AUSTRALIA 'CLAIMING A PLACE'. 3-6 May at the Sheraton Hotel Brisbane. Guest speakers will include Monica Hughes, Gillan Cross, Anthony Browne and many distinguished Australian authors and illustrators. Registration forms will be available from November 1995. For further information contact the Children's Book Council of Australia (Tasmania) PO Box 113 Moonah Tasmania 7009 ASAL 1996 - BRISBANE Queensland University of Technology is hosting the 1996 Association for the Study of Australian Literature annual conference, from Saturday July 6 to Thursday July 11. The conference will be held on the Gardens Point Campus, situated between the City Botanic Gardens and the river Enquiries to the co-ordinators: Sharyn Pearce: School of Humanities,QUT, Carseldine Campus, Beams Rd., Carseldine Q.4034 or Email m.miles@qut.edu.au. Fax 07 3864 4719. Email m.miles@qut.edu.au, or Philip Neilsen: School of Media and Journalism, Faculty of Arts, QUT, GPO Box 2434, Brisbane Q 4001. Fax 07 3864 1810. Email p.neilsen@qut.edu.au THE IRISH CENTRE FOR AUSTRALIAN STUDIES: AUSTRALIAN STUDIES CONFERENCE The Irish Centre for Australian Studies will be holding an Australian Studies Conference in Dublin from 3-6 July 1996. The three major streams will be history, culture and the environment. For further details contact David Day Professor of Australian History Department of Modern History University College Dublin Ireland. COMPARING AUSTRALIA: A CONFERENCE. Call For Papers and Introductory Information. Dates: 30th August-1 September 1996 in Stirling, Scotland. Abstratcts not exceeding 200 words by 30th November 1995. Papers 20 minutes delivery time. Registration forms will be mailed out in January 1996. For further information Contact Angela Smith, British Association for Studies on Australia, Centre of Commonwealth Studies, University of Stirling, Stirling FK9 4LA, UK Fax 01786 451 335 E-Mail: ams1@stir.ac.uk ******************************************************************************** While AWOL makes every effort to ensure the accuracy of Happenings listing we suggest you confirm dates, times and venue. AWOL would like to thank the following organisation who provided information for this list: NSW Writers Centre, Queensland Writers Centre, The Writers' Centre of South Australia, Tasmanian Writers' Union, AusLit discussion group (internet), Muse (ACT) FAW WWW LINK (http://www.ozemail.com.au:80/~faw/) and the other individuals and organisations who supplied information about their events directly to AWOL. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:47:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: January Happenings 1/2 Australian Writing On Line JANUARY Happenings AWOL Happenings. A monthly guide to readings, book launches, conferences and other events relating to Australian literature both within Australia and overseas. If you have any item which you would like included in future listings please contact AWOL. AWOL is also setting up a virtual bookshop for Australian small magazines and presses. This will take the form of regular newsletters (which will be available both on the net and by mail and fax) that will pre/review new publications. These titles will then be able to be ordered by mail or fax. Associated with our Virtual Bookshop is our Sydney distribution service for small presses. Please contact us for further details if you want to distribute your publication to bookshops in Sydney. AWOL posts are archived on the WWW at the following address http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au:80/danny/books/AWOL/ then click on Australian Writing OnLine. How to receive AWOL postings Internet All AWOL postings, including the monthly Happenings list, one off posts about special events, the latest literary magazines and small press books, together with information about AWOL's Virtual Bookshop, are available free to subscribers with an internet address. Simply send a post, asking to be added to our mailing list, to MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.oz.au. Mail Each month AWOL will post a hard copy of that month's Happenings list, together with a copy of all special posts, to AWOL subscribers. While we are setting up our Virtual Bookshop there will be a introductory charge of $12.50 (for six months) to cover postage and printing costs (rates will be reviewed early in 1996). Please send cheques, made payable to Rochford Press, to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137 (overseas rates on application). Fax Subscribers in the 02 telephone area can elect to have the monthly Happenings list and special posts faxed to them for $5.00 for six months. Please send cheques, made payable to Rochford Press to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137. Subscribers outside the 02 area should contact us for individual fax rates. NSW SYDNEY Wednesday 24 January 1996, at 6 pm in the Dixon Room, State Library of New South Wales. Launch of Yasmine Gooneratne's new novel The Pleasures of Conquest will be launched by Michael Wilding with readings from the novel by David Ritchie, Pauline Gunawardene and David Baldwin. Every Thursday Writers Anonymous at Tap Gallery level 1 278 Palmer Street Darlinghurst. Details phone/fax 361 0440 Every Monday 7pm Monday Night Live, comedy, drama, dance, poetry, music, monologue and mime. At the Blue Fox Bar 274 Victoria Street Darlinghurst (opposite the fire station). Details phone Christo (02)331 6131 or Leslie (02) 361 0440. Every second Tuesday...POETRY SUPREME 9pm, Eli's Restaurant, 132 Oxford Street, Darlinghurst. Details phone/fax (02) 361 0440 Every Sunday...THE WORD ON SUNDAY 11.30am Museum of Contemporary Art, Circular Quay. 2 Admission $8/ $5.. Details phone (02) 241 5876. Every Thursday...POETRY ALIVE 11am-1pm, Old Courthouse, Bigge Street, Liverpool. Details phone (02) 607 2541. Every Tuesday night THE WALLS HAVE EARS 8.30 till late. Upstairs at the Little West Cafe 346 Liverpool Street Darlinghurst. Details Clare McGregor (02) 387 4029. Second Monday The Hawkesbury Writing Group meets at 7.30pm in one of the meeting rooms of the Richmond Ex-Servicemen's Club, East Market Street Richmond NSW. Details ph Pat Lindsay (045) 765945 1st and 3rd Wednesday ...POETS UNION 7pm, The Gallery Cafe, 43 Booth Street, Annandale. Details phone (02) 560 6209. 1st Friday...EASTERN SUBURBS POETRY GROUP 7.30pm, Everleigh Street, Waverly. Details phone (02) 389 3041. 1st Tuesday...ICEBREAKERS GAY POETRY 8pm, 197 Albion Street Surry Hills. $2 includes free coffee. Details phone Noel Tointon (02) 3172257. 2nd & 4th Thursday...FRESH WORDS 7.30pm The Poets Union on Oxford Street, Berkelouw Books, 19 Oxford Street Paddington. Guests and open section. Phone Anna (02) 365 6217 or 015 704 364 or Nick Sykes (02) 336 6938. 3rd Sunday 2 - 4pm INTERLUDES at the Lethington Community Centre 133 Smith Street Summer Hills. Poets, musicians and storytellers. December reading will be held on 17 December Details ph Joye Dempsey (02) 797 7575 3rd Sunday...POETRY WITH GLEE: THE POETS UNION AT GLEEBOOKS. 2-4pm, 49 Glebe Point Road, Glebe. Admission $5/$2 Details Nick Sykes (02) 928 8607. 4th Monday of each month...FUTURE POETS SOCIETY 8pm, Lapidary Club Room, Gymea Bay Road, Gymea. Details phone Anni Featherstone (02) 528 4736. 4th Wednesday...LIVE POETS AT DON BANKS MUSEUM 7.30pm, 6 Napier Street North Sydney. Guest reader plus open section. Admission $6 includes wine. Details phone Sue Hicks or Danny Gardiner (02) 908 4527. Writers at the River, Roscoes Riverside Restaurant, Penrith, NSW. Open Section included. For information on January reading contact Carl Leddy (047) 21 2087. Sunday 14 January 1996 Babell: Sydney Fringe Writers and Small Press Festival Preseted by Ariel Booksellers. Located at the refurbished Paddington Town Hall, the festival will bring you a whole day packed with readings and discussions, poetics and publishers, book launches, CD ROM, poetry software, visual text, small press and 'zines, the Ern malley Memorial Bar and much more. The festival will focus on writing which exists in the margins and on the fringe and which is mostly quite happy to be there - providing a rich and fertile ground for our literature. Guests will include John A Scott, Tom Flood, berni janssen, Paul Kelly, UWS students and many more performance poets, authors, publishers and bibliophiles. Launches include that of Sabrina Achilles first novel Waste. Ariel Bookstore will relocate for the day bringing with it a multitude of local small presses and journals, the Poetry Book Club of Australia, Australian Writing On Line (AWOL), visual text, CD ROMs, an internet display and much much more. Cost $7/$5 for each session, $15/$10 for day pass. Tickets available from Ariel Booksellers, 42 Oxford Street Paddington or from the Sydney Fringe Office on phone (02) 365 7271. For further details contact Lisa Herbert on phone (02) 3324581. 23 - 28 January 1996 - 1996 Sydney Writers' Festival Hailed as the major literary event in NSW, the Sydney Writers' Festival is held in association with the Sydney Festival and the State Library of NSW. Programmed events include author profiles, readings, film screenings, discussion sessions, book launches, literary feasts, research tours, master classes, special events and activities for young people. International writers include: Walter Mosley, David Guterson, Barbara Kingsolver, Terry Pratchett, Romesh Gunesekera, Alison Fell, Evelyn Lau, Peter Matthiessen, Ko Un and the Nuyorican Poets Cafe Live. Australian writers include: Dorothy Porter, Amy Witting, Peter Singer, Geraldine Brooks, Jenny Pausacker, Hanifa Deen, Morris West, Frank Moorhouse, Yasmine Gooneratne, Anne summers, Jill Kitson, David Marr, Hazel Hawke, Herb Wharton, Justine Ettler, Arlene Chai, Fiona Capp, Rosie Cross, Linda Jaivin, Gary Dunne and many more. The Sydney Writers' Festival hotline will be in operation from mid-December. People requiring information about the Writers' Festival can call (02) 230 1605 or fax (02) 223 8709 for details. NSW WRITERS' CENTRE EVENTS Techniques, Emotions & Action: A creative writing workshop. 24 & 25 February 1996 10am-5pm. Conducted by Pearle McNeill and Beatriz Copello. Cost $110 NSWWC members, $140 non members, $90 conc. Multimedia Interactivity and Collaboration for Writers: A six week course with David Jobling. Tuesday evenings 6.30 - 9.30pm from 20 February to 26 March. $150 NSWWC members, $200 non members, $130 conc. The Poets Voice - a 2 day poetry workshop with Colleen Burke. 9 & 16 March 10am to 4pm each day. Cost $110 NSWWC members, $140 non members, $90 conc. Writing the Self and Others: A weekend workshop with Patti Miller for people who want to get started on their life story or that of a family member. Cost $110 NSWWC members, $140 non members, $90 member conc. Out of the Bottom Drawer: Creative Writing Workshops with Colleen Burke. 8 weeks Wednesdays 10am to 1pm from 28 February to 17 April. Cost $120 NSWWC members, Non members $150, member conc $100. WOMEN WRITERS' NETWORK 2nd Wednesday. 7.30pm, NSW Writers' Centre. Details Ann Davis (02) 716 6869. FEMINIST & EXPERIMENTAL WRITERS' GROUP meets every second Friday 6.30-9.30pm. Details Margaret Metz (02) 231 8011 or Valerie Williamson for details of venues. Unless otherwise stated all NSWWC events are held at the centre in Rozelle Hospital grounds (enter from Balmain Road opposite Cecily Street and follow the signs). REGIONAL NSW ARMIDALE 1st Wednesday 7.30pm, Rumours Cafe in the Mall. Details phone James Vicars (067) 73 2103 WOLLONGONG 2nd & 4th Tuesday 7.30pm, Here's Cheers Restaurant, 5 Victoria Street, Wollongong. Details phone Ian Ryan (042) 84 0645. LISMORE 3rd Tuesday 8pm. Stand Up Poets, Lismore Club, Club Lane. Details phone David Hallett (066) 891318. MULLUMBIMBY second Saturday morning of the month 10am - noon. POWEM women's workshop. Mayor's room upstairs, opposite RSL Club, Dalley Street Mullumbimby. Contact Philmoena Scheehan (066) 80 1006. NEWCASTLE / HUNTER VALLEY 3rd Monday... Poetry at the Pub. Northern Star Hotel, 7.30pm Beaumont Street Newcastle Street $2/$1. Details phone Bill Iden (049) 675 972 MAITLAND Poetry group 4th Friday 7.30, Literary Institute in Banks Street East Maitland. $2. Details phone Bruce Copping (049) 301497. KANGAROO VALLEY Last Friday...Writers in the Valley "music .poetry and social interaction in Kangeroo Valley". For details on venue and times ring Diana Jaffray on (044) 651 334 BLUE MOUNTAINS Friday Nights at Varuna Writers' Centre 7.30pm: Includes tea, coffee & biscuits. $2 buys entry and a lucky door ticket. Varuna Writers' Centre, 141 Cascade Street Katoomba NSW 2780. Details ph Peter Bishop (047) 825 674. WAUCHOPE Second Sunday 3pm Poets in the pub, readings performances & music at the Star Hotel, organised with 2WAY FM and taped for Broadcast. Details P Denton (065) 85 93929 or Trevor Corliss (065) 84 8023. WAGGA WAGGA The next reading in Wagga will take place on the 5th March 1996 Enquiries: David Gilbey (069) 332465 ************************************************************** SOUTH AUSTRALIA ADELAIDE Tuesday 9 January Friendly Street Readings at the the Box factory, Little Regent Street South Adelaide 7.30pm. Guest reader Steve Edwards. Details phone Stephen Lawrence (08) 331 8676 or Glen Murdoch (08) 2728189. Saturday 20th January, 1996, 7.30 pm. Stagefright at the Box Factory, Regent St, Adelaide, $5.00 admission. Adelaide writers, performers, musicians, puppeteers, dancers and performers: Rebecca Reid and Chris Rayner, Jenny Weight, Susan Richardson, Moya Costelo, Graham Maloney, Daniel Aquilina and Jude Aquilina, Jluie Limnios, Suzanne Sullivan and Jo Machete. 2nd & 4th Tuesday Poets in the Pub The Governor Hindmarsh Hotel 59 Port Road 8pm. Open readings. Details phone Barry McKee (08) 352 8669. Every Friday Interactive Port O'Call opposite Johnny Rockets at the rear of 281 Rundle Street. 8.30pm. Open reading. Free. Details phone (08) 2236113. 3rd Thursday Salisbury Writers Meetings at the Salisbury Central Library 6.30-8.30pm. Visitors and new members welcome. Details phone (08) 252 2704. March 3-8, 1996 The Telstra Adelaide Festival 96 Writers Week will present Writer's Week In The Writers' Week Tents, Pioneer Women's Memorial Gardens. Featuring. Overseas Writers: Fred d'Aguiar, Vikram Chandra, Adrian Edmondson, Jostein Gaarder, Sue Grafton, Amin Maalouf, E. Annie Proulx, Giorgios Heimonas, Philip Jeyaretnam, Barbara Trapido, Malcolm Bradbury, J. M. Coetzee, James Elroy, Jane Garden, Josephine Hart, Michael Ignatieff, Barry Lopez, Paul Muldoon, Rupert Thomson, Vassilis Vassilikos. Australian Writers: Ken Bolton, Kaz Cooke, Liam Davison, Sara Dowse, Fotini Epanomitis, Steve Evans, John Forbes, Kate Grenville, Marian Halligan, Colin Hope, Gail Jones, Mike Ladd, Peter McFarlane, John Marsden, Stephen Mueke, Dorothy Porter, Matt Rubinstein, Trevor Sykes, Glenys Ward, Ben Winch, Tim Winton, Lily Brett, Evelyn Crawford, Bruce Dawe, Philip Drew, Susan Errington, Tim Flannery, Pene Greet, Rodney Hall, Christine Harris, John Jenkins, Antigone Kefala, Cath Kenneally, Maureen McCarthy, Humphrey McQueen, Meahgan Morris, Neil Paech, Gillian Rubinstein, Kim Scott, Ania Walwicz, Herb Wharton, Keith Windshuttle, Amy Witting. A detailed program ofevents with information on all sessions and participating writers and speakers will be available a month before the Festival. Copies of the Writer's Week Program Guide can be reserved by sending your name and address with a cheque or money order for $8:00 (payable to The Adelaide Festival) to: Writer's Week Program Guide, GPO Box 1269, Adelaide, SA. 5001, Australia. Poets on Popeye. In conjunction with the Adelaide Fringe Festival the Writers Centre will be running two Poets on Popeye trips at sunset on Wednesday 6 and Thursday 7 March. Participants will be listening to poetry by leading international, interstate and local poets. Bookings through Venue*Tix. Cost $25/$20 conc. Writers' Centre SA Events Every 2nd Wednesday 10am. First meeting for 1996 will be on 17 January.City Scribes writers group meet at the Writers' Centre. Details phone Jenny (08) 2948602 or Jeanne (08) 339 4501. Every 2nd Wednesday 7.30pm Children's Writers Group meets at the Writers' Centre. This is a discussion group for active children's writers. Details phone Jeri Kroll (08) 269627. For all country members of the Writers' Centre there will be a Country Groups' Meeting at the Centre on Saturday 9 March from 10 -4 pm. Contact the centre for further details Sunday 4 February 2pm Prose reading at the Writers' Centre. Bring a ten minute slice of your work to try out on fellow writers or come and listen and enjoy. Details phone John Rimmer (06) 3367474 Unless otherwise stated all Writers' Centre of South Australia events are held at the Centre 187 Rundle Street Adelaide. Details phone Mary Combe (08 223 7662, fax (07) 232 3994, REGIONAL SOUTH AUSTRALIA 1st Wednesday. Blackboard Stage Sessions. The Anchorage, Victor Harbor, is the new venue for a new and regular night of participation and entertainment. Those interested in taking the stage for 15 minutes with a performance piece should contact Wendy Feltus on (085) 553277 for further details. Last Sunday of the month 2pm Gawler Poetry at the Railway Family Hotel, corner 18th and 15th Streets Gawler. 1996 readings recommence on Sunday 31 March. A poetry segment will be aired on channel 9's Adelaide Today program each Friday prior to the Sunday readings. Open Readings. Free Details phone Martin Johnson (085) 224268. Every second Monday Yankalilla District Writers' Group meets from 9.30pm at the RSL Hall Main Road Normanville. Details phone Claire Brooks (085) 582294. ************************************************************** QUEENSLAND Wordsmith Cafe Readings. The next event will be a book signing by Terry Pratchett on Monday 22 January 1996 between 1 & 2 pm. Wordsmiths - The Writers Cafe is located adjacent to the University Bookshop, Staff House Road, St Lucia. Details Helen Wood Grant ph (07) 3652168, Fax (07) 3651977. Every Tuesday Bombshelter Bar Story Bridge Hotel Brisbane Writers SLAM Guest speakers, word games, literary quizzes - win cash and prizes. $3. Details Phone Bernie (07) 3378 0341. Every second Monday 1.30pm at West End Community House, 4 Norfolk Road South Brisbane. A new literary and creative writing group has been set up to talk about literature, to read your own work and receive feedback. Writers from non English speaking backgrounds are particularly welcome. Details Barbara Damska (07) 3844 0091. Every second Saturday Passions of a bookworm will be holding readings and discussions at their premises at 4/635 Wynnum Road, Morningside. Details and time ph (07) 3217 9300. Writers in Townsville meets every Wednesday at 7.30pm at the Migrant Resource Centre Walker Street. Readings of manuscripts, guest speakers etc. Details Yvonne (077) 71 2585. PO Box 5101 MSO Townsville Qld 4810 Queensland Writers Centre Events EXCITING WRITING: READINGS OF NEW WORKS AT THE QUEENSLAND WRITERS' CENTRE Crime Writers group is looking for new members to meet at the QWC. Details phone Pat Noad (07) 3397 0431. NOW AVAILABLE FROM THE QUEENSLAND WRITERS' CENTRE...... HANDBOOK FOR QUEENSLAND WRITERS. Contents include Preparation, Representation, Professional Issues and Development and Funding. Cost $10 plus $1.50 postage for QWC members or $15 plus $1.50 for non members. For more information contact the QWC. ************************************************************** VICTORIA Last Friday 6.30pm MELBOURNE POETS Meeting and reading/workshop The Hawthorn Lower Town Hall, 360 Burwood Road, Hawthorn (entry and car parking at rear). 6.30pm meeting begins, 7.30pm reading/ workshop begins. Cost $3 (Members), $5 (non members). Details write to Martin French 1/16 Kent Road Surrey Hills Vic 3127. 3rd Sunday each month; 2pm Readings at the Eaglemont Bookshop 525 Brunswick St North Fitzroy. These readings apparently have been a little irregular over recent months so contact Shelton Lea ph (03) 4863219 to confirm. ************************************************************** ACT Writers Workshops. The ACT Writers Centre conducts regular writing workshops. For further information contact the ACTWC at Griffith Library, Blaxland Crescent ACT 2603 or phone (06) 239 5251 or (06) 292 4761. 3rd Monday ACT FAW meets 8pm Studio Room, Griffin Centre, Civic. Details Phone (06) 251 3256. The National Library of Australia is running a children's holiday program. Details phone (06) 262 1111. ************************************************************** WESTERN AUSTRALIA DISK READINGS are held on the Third Tuesday of each month at Pockets Cocktail Lounge 44 Lark Street Northbridge. Admission is free. Details Mike Shuttleworth ph. (09) 4304991. ** ** ** The Katherine Susannah Prichard Writer's Centre, at 11 Old York Rd Greenmount, is perched on the side of the Darling Range, looking towards the towers of Perth and the setting sun. It is surrounded by National Park and the developing suburbs of the Hills district. The place is small and friendly and the kettle is nearly always on the boil. The Centre holds readings on the first Sunday of the month at 7.30pm. Three invited readers are featured. Cost is $5/$4 and includes light refreshments. Faye Davis is currently writer-in-community working on a project called 'Writing in the Hills' Changes'. She is running moderately priced ($3.50 a session) workshops in the district, and is available for consultation at the house by appointment. (this project is supported by the Australia Council). The house itself, former home of Katherine Susannah Prichard, is heritage listed and tours cost $5. Wednesday and Sunday are tour days. Ring first to book. A small writer's studio, once used by Katherine, is now used by writers-in-residence. The KSP Foundation, the Centre's management body, is currently investigating the possibility of letting the Studio on a short term basis to writers from the city, country and/or interstate. Ring Rob Finlayson, the co-ordinator, on Thursdays, between 10.30am and 5.30pm (09) 294 1872., to chat about writing and writers, and to find out what's happening in the Hills of Perth and the sunburnt city at their feet. At other times ring the Chairperson, Rose van Scon (09) 293 3863. ************************************************************** TASMANIA 14-17 March 1996 Salamanca Writer Festival. Presented by TWU, the University of Tasmania and the Salamanca Arts Centre. Program includes Young Writers and Readers Festival, and Fringe events. Details phone Subi (002) 384 414, Marjorie (002) 344 384 or Fiona (002) 240 029. ************************************************************** NORTHERN TERRITORY Darwin For further information about any of these events contact The Literature Officer, Northern Territory Community Writing Program GPO Box 1774 Darwin NT 0801, phone/fax (089) 412651. Darwin Fellowship of Australian Writers conducts monthly meetings/workshops. Details Matthew Lonsdale ph (089) 278133, PO Box 37512 Winnellie NT 0821. Katherine Katherine Writers" Guild conducts regular workshops, meetings, recitals and produces a regular newsletter. $5 joining fee, $20 a year (conc half price). Details Lori Martin PO Box 2155 Katherine NT 0851. Alice Springs 2nd & 4 Tuesday Alice Springs Fellowsip of Australian Writers meetings at the YWCA on Stuart Terrace. Details contact Meg Williams PO Box 1783 Alice Springs NT 0871. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:48:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Welcome, my friends... ...to a poem that never ends: At 06:54 PM 1/4/96 -0800, Ron Silliman wrote: >Always thought one could do an interesting course >focused explicitly around the work of >Emerson >Blake >and Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Welcome, my friends... oh, you just want MANN to begin from the beginning in lieu of a media race(?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:08:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Announcing New Visual Poetry Website Comments: cc: sclay@interport.net, blairsea@panix.com, jdrucker@minerva.cis.yale.edu, bernstei@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, djmess@cinenet.net, jongams@crocker.com, harborrat@aol.com, dhiggins@mhv.net, lefthandb@mhv.net, marco@hollywood.cinenet.net, lolpoet@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Announcing A New Visual Poetry Website: ViSuAL pOeTry at Kenny G's Homepage **Gorgeous Color & Black & White gifs & jpgs.** http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/visualpoetry/visualpoetry.html _______________________________________________________________ Contents: Susan Bee from "Talespin" Example 1 Example 2 Example 3 Henrik Drescher from "Too Much Bliss" Example 1 Example 2 Example 3 Johanna Drucker from "The HISTORY of the/my WOR L D" Example 1 Example 2 Example 3 Kenneth Goldsmith & Joan La Barbara 73 Poems Dick Higgins i.e., or vice versa AN ARK Bill Luoma 200Hex Bindfix Frank Pipes Volvox Blair Seagram Ante Prima Alpha B&W Cry Me A River ___________________________________________________________________ This site is always growing. Visit often. Submissions accepted: kgolds@panix.com peace, Kenny G =========================================================================== Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org kgoldsmith@hardpress.com v. 212-260-4081 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 04:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: WEB POETRY Ken Edwards wrote: >I'm neither an "authority" on the internet nor a technophobe - just living in >the real world! After some of the points other have made, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a regular user is the best person to ask about this. It's possible that users of the major services with slower modems are more in touch with the "real" world. I spend many evening hours chatting poetry on IRC. I enjoy having an open reading going on in my kitchen. Compuserve would cost *me* too much. I shouldn't have ass- umed so much about you. for instance: Ron Silliman wrote: >Over half of the world's population lives more than two hours travel >from the nearest phone line. The book will continue to be the point of >reference for at least the next 50 years, perhaps the next 100. The >communications potential of this medium is real, but both utopian and >dystopian claims need to be examined with great care. I still think that the web is the tool I've wanted to circumnavigate the big publishers, and look at this listserv! I am starstruck by these poets whose work I've enjoyed for years with whom I can converse and spar a little. It inspires me to write more. (Thanks, Charles.) Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 04:28:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: The Anguish Dept. Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Well, if you (Pete Landers) hate it when people say talk about > something different but then fail to suggest a TOPIC, > don't you also hate it when people say "read my poetry" and then > don't post at least one poem on the list. > Yours, Chris I'm glad you saw yourself in that mirror. Being new, I'm unsure of the protocol regarding posting poems to the list. I'm sure though, that it's ok to post when asked, and I think I was just asked so: ______ ARREST how long is a rest to rest ? - LZ I over slept. (over) I slept. eyes lept over "Fermata" I rest my eyes, for which rapid movement (REM), is rest like, as, like, No, not like. Exactly being undirected, alleatoric; a need for chance. "Then who's composing it, and how can it be said to be music?" No, not, my friend, say "reposing." (rest) (now the rest of the rest) com, -re, -dis, -im, -op, -sup-, posit which you like, still, it's a pose. Sleep turns the words around; the words, around the sleep, turn. I always knew I would be among the chosen (tebah-pla) and things you won't admit. Turn a round chosen among the would be knew Where've you been? for my friend, dance easel, dance easily, ceaselessly. Here all the time. (tebah-pla) eyes lept around the words chosen among I always dance among the sleep admit turn things over easily, rest, the dance over, I slept. ___________________________ Thanks for asking! Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 04:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: The Anguish Dept. Don Byrd wrote: >how to organize the stuff in the archive for maximus use. Great typo! ROTFLMAO! True, I mistook keeping the archive for determining the direction of the canon. Squared away now. >Here and there one finds interesting people in them, but generally >speaking English departments are dinosaurs, and most of the attempts to >discover some contemporary relevancy in them have lacked all conceptual >depth and, for the most part, they have lacked adequate information as >well... The best recommendations I've gotten for reading material were not from English teachers. I ask the poets I like who they like. My English teachers were good at teaching survey courses or Shakespeare, but they all thought poetry ended sometime in the twenties. Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:33:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Welcome, my friends... >...to a poem that never ends: don't look now folks, but i think he's talking about rengaing! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 03:38:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Meaning(s) Two questions about word origins and meaning.... (1) Who first used Bests as a salutation, specifically with that "s" at the end. I've been seeing it since the mid-60s when I associated it (if those brain cells haven't been miswired) with Berkson et al, the so-called 2nd generation NY school. How far back does it go? (2) How has the word "renga" changed in your conception of it over the past year as a result of this list? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:47:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: "Direct" book/box and catalog A pamphlet/catalog as well as a limited edition book/box is presently available from the "Direct" one-week "Nomad" performance-installation-show that was held at the Galerie Forde and the Cinema Spoutnik in October in Geneva, Switzerland. The event was organized by Guenther Ruch. The "Nomads" for this venue included Guenther Ruch (Germany/Switzerland), Juergen Olbrich (Germany), Jean-Noel Laszlo (France), Dougal (Scotland) and me, Ward Tietz (USA). The Nomads project was begun in 1986 by Juergen Olbrich and others as an invitational and location-specific format for artists to meet and work on projects for a limited time. Other venues have included Kassel, Germany (1986), Calgary, Canada (1988)... These projects have primarily been an extension of the mail-art network that developed in the 1970s and 80's. While these projects have certainly not been literary in any direct sense, there has been considerable overlap into what we could call "quasi-literary" forms, most notably visual poetry, as mail art investigated a modality of language and paper-based communication that was to a large extent anti-discursive. My own interest in projects such as this have been along these lines. The often contradictory and perhaps ironic potential of the anti-discursive vis-a-vis literature is that it cannot be staged or directly formed "in" literature. It must be projected and staged outside of literature and then be reimported, but often only as a series of fragments. The book/box (33cmx26cmx5cm) is a signed, limited edition of 49 boxes. It includes found, treated and other texts that relate to the week's activities as well as objects (eg. treated x-rays etc.). The price is 80 Swiss francs (about $70). The pamphlet, which includes descriptions of the week's activities, also functions as a catalog for the mail-art show (103 artists participated) that was part of the week's events. The pamphlet/catalog is available for 8 Swiss francs (about $7). Those interested can contact me directly. The following is an except from one of the pages of the book/box: "October 7, 1995 Description of two actions: Today, October 7, 1995, we did two actions outside near the river. The first involved the use of five different letters that were cut out from old x-rays. Ten-meter lengths of film were stapled to the letters and used to dangle the letters into the river from a bridge near the gallery. Guenther had made a capital "H", I had made an "O" and Juergen and Dougal used "A"'s that Dougal had already made. I set up the camera and Colette took most of the photographs. I took a few as well...." Happy New Year Ward Tietz rte de St. Cergue, 48a CH-1260 Nyon Switzerland e-mail: 100723.3166@compuserve.com e-mail: 100723.3166@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:55:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Meaning (:P) thanks to the renga my hypertext link to Charles Tomlinson went cold? Bill Ichor Gallery 8:30 pm 127 w 26 :P Joe Z I think the rengs are late july-early october and then they go private Gabrielle Welford is the privacy archivist up to a point then we fall free (or you could ask Jorge G) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:39:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Meaning(s) >Two questions about word origins and meaning.... > >(1) Who first used Bests as a salutation, specifically with that "s" at >the end. I've been seeing it since the mid-60s when I associated it (if >those brain cells haven't been miswired) with Berkson et al, the >so-called 2nd generation NY school. How far back does it go? > >(2) How has the word "renga" changed in your conception of it over the >past year as a result of this list? > >Ron Silliman Can't answer number one. As to two, as a result of this list renga still remains primarily the Japanese form it's been for a long time, and something else entirely on this list, making me wish what the list takes it for had a different name entirely. But words do migrate, so . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Bags Comments: To: drothschild@penguin.com Top of the 8th, after four fouled off Gentry, still 2 and 2 a plastic bag blows over home plate, Dave Cash of the Pirates steps out of the box, steps back in, after speeding the plastic on its way with his bat, fouls two more off, then 3 & 2, then infield bounce to the shortstop, out at first. --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:00:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Revised/extended Subtext reading schedule There've been some changes in the schedule, so here's the current menu for the ongoing Seattle reading series Subtext@Speakeasy: January 18th - Mickey O'Connor & Dan Raphael February 15 - Laynie Browne & Kathryn MacLeod March 21 - Nico Vassilakis & Laura Feldman All readings start at 7:30 at the Speakeasy Cafe, 2314 2nd Avenue, a couple of blocks north of the picturesque Public Market in Seattle's continuingly regentrified Belltown neighborhood. $5 donation. Other upcoming readings of note in Seattle: February 28 - Rosmarie Waldrop March 12 - Robin Blaser Both of these are part of the Rendezvous Reading series, at 8:00 pm at the New City Theater, at 11th Ave & E Olive St on Capitol Hill. See you all there, of course. &, if you haven't already, check out the subtext Web site: Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Bests (Meaning(s)) Ron Silliman asks: >(1) Who first used Bests as a salutation, specifically with that "s" at >the end. I've been seeing it since the mid-60s when I associated it (if >those brain cells haven't been miswired) with Berkson et al, the >so-called 2nd generation NY school. How far back does it go? As someone who affects this affectation, I can only say I got "Bests" from a friend in high school in the late 60s. She was not one of the "so-called 2nd generation" of anything, as far as I know. It's difficult (but not impossible) to imagine this particular person reading, say, Berkson et al, back then (or now for that matter, though we aren't in touch), so there's probably an Ur-source from outside the poetry world. Bests Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: towards a new poetics I found Serge Gavronsky's introduction to his collection "Towards A New Poetics: Contemporary Writing in France" to be very instructive and insightful. He comments that cutting edge writers there are, while still coming out of a context of self-awareness about ecricture (that writing preceeds speech, that language determines conditions of meaning), moving away from the hard-edged ideology of Tel Quel towards refiguring a variety of possibilities disavowed by the Tel Quel writers (lyricism, mainly, but also a focus on the "everyday"). I found this similar to some arguments I've been making about the formal multiplicity of "post-language writers"--that, without abandoning the theoretical insights of language poetry, a number of writers are moving towards incorporating a wider variety of elements into those insights. I'm wondering, though, if there's anybody on this list with awareness about contemporary writing in France who disagrees with Gavronsky's descripton of the situation there. Can anybody help me out? Thanks. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:10:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: Let's Keep it to Business Pete Landers posted a beautiful good clear aire care. >>I'm unsure of the protocol regarding posting Joseph Zitt said: >>Business? Which business? Academics? >> The construction of books? Theory? Poetry performance? >>Grocery stores? yes. everything. poetics. >>And I can think of little that can be send about anything >>that would not have any chance of offending somebody. right. so poetics can be anything and this anything stands a good chance of offending someone. i interpret Dick Higgins' recent remarks to mean that we should saxifrage this space and see what it is capable of supporting. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:44:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Contemporary French Poetry Mark Wallace wrote: "I'm wondering, though, if there anybody on this list with an awareness about contemporary writing in France who disagrees with Gavronsky's description of the situation there? Can anybody help me out?" I'm not an expert on contemporary French writing, but I can offer a couple of observations based on recent experience. My impression is that the situation in French poetry is perhaps a little more complex than you describe. I went to a presentation and discussion in Geneva a few months ago put on by editions POL (a fairly well-known French press) to inaugurate their new book-format magazine and I got the impression that they were pursuing a fairly eclectic agenda, publishing old and new work together, that is looking to history to validate their new projects. In a way this is probably consistent with Gavronsky's description, but as a method it wasn't very convincing. Interestingly my Genevois friends (Geneva is French-speaking) find the French literary magazines rather conservative, conservative in the sense that French writing goes it's own course often unaware of developments in say the English speaking or German speaking world. This can be a strength or a handicap depending on the context and milieu and at present they seem to feel it's a handicap. In 1992 Le Refuge in Marseilles, which functions as a poetry archive, reading and research space, put out a special pamphlet entitled Etats Generaux de la Poesie. This overview outlines a rather different state of affairs, with an emphasis on the extended dimensions of literature, including sound and visual production. This is in part because of Julien Blaine's influence, but to some extent Le Refuge does function as a refuge for this type of work, as well as the more traditional radical strains. They put out a pamphlet every few months or so, which generally covers recent readings, presentations and exhibitions. You can get onto their mailing list by writing to them at: Le Refuge Place Baussenque F-13002 Marseilles France Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:43:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: worldwide web presses ... especially effective for those regions located 'more than 2 miles from the nearest telephone'... +---------------------------------------------+ | | | 1991 Heidelberg 19x25 four color press | | MOVPH, Alcolor, CPC 103 console | | $410,000 | | Coast Printing Equipment | | (415) 873-2640 | | | +---------------------------------------------+ p.s. don't forget your costs for censors, film, paper, ink, bindery-work, and postage/distribution -- { brad brace } ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project: continuous hypermodern photo-art: ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace & ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace Usenet: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr / alt.culture.beaches ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace/bbrace.html -> core.dump: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:47:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: webstuff Anyone interested in this web business might want to drop by the Transit Bar and check out Toronto artist Vera Frenkel's project, "Body Missing" at http://www.yorku.ca/BodyMissing/ It's quite remarkable, an extension of a physical installation she did here last year. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 09:05:14 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: Meaning(s) In-Reply-To: <199601051138.DAA21326@ix9.ix.netcom.com> Re the use of "bests" and a connection with Bill Berkson, I wonder if you don't connect the word with him because of his one-shot magazine "BEST & COMPANY" (which was named for a long-defunct department store). In my youth I corresponded with a fair number of 2nd generation New York school poets and I don't recall "bests" being used, though of course "best" or "all best" with the "wishes" or "regards" understood was/is common, without being restricted to 2nd gen NY school. since dropping the wishes, regards, etc, also leaves out the plural, it would make sense to pluralize the now nominalized adjective, dui bu dui? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:55:11 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: HyperRenga meets Godzilla Well, I've started work on compiling the POETICS renga hypertext. Looks like the programming part should be fairly sraightforward. I'm going to have some structural questions along the way, though -- things got a little wonky when someone put a new line above the first (so what do the lines that follow that follow?) and, if I recall, somewhere along the line someone changed an existing line. More as I get to it... BTW,FWIW, the starting date was Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:22:08 -0400 in a message from Steven Howard Shoemaker. (Thanks to whoever implemented the archive's search function for making it easy to find that out!) ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/Joe Zitt's Home Page\| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 04:25:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Brad, Mimeos still exist. Gestetner still exists. Xerox has become more common throughout the world. Viz the following: "Internet Use Growing In China (Boston Globe: Jan. 4, p. 52) With less than 1% of China's 1.2 billion population owning PCs, the market here is expected to grow 36% a year for at least the next five years. One of the biggest reasons for the high demand is the popularity of the Internet among the Chinese who do own computers. There are now 2.5 million PCs in use. The Chinese government is concerned about the access that dissidents might have to the Internet and it remains to be seen how much freedom PC users are allowed to have and whether small entrepreneurial companies inside China are permitted to create Internet products." The problem with the internet is not so much the cost of production (although those Sun webservers don't come cheap) as it is the cost of consumption. PCs will arrive in about 1 percent of the homes in China sometime around the millenium (i.e. 5 years from now). Most of the African sites I know of are basically western academic research facilities camped on African soil. In fact, most of the poets in the US are not connected yet. I'm not discounting the web's potential, just trying to give it a sense of context. DF Brown (who may be lurking on this list -- Hi David) tells a story of how he got introduced to poetry. He was in Nam during the war and came back to base camp one night after the local "book drop" had been distributed. All the popular books (Louis Lamour novels, etc) had been grabbed, but still in the bottom of the box was a copy of Creeley's Pieces. Books have an ability to travel to places the internet will never reach... Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 08:31:25 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: worldwide web presses && in weighing the web as possible & actual... all of the folks here on the list are obviously connected--how many of you publish your work here? what percentages ov work are available on net/ paper/both? praps more importantly, how much work that you want to _read_ is available online? keeping in mind the oft-stated generosity of the Electronic Poetry Center to post/host/archive, so there's little excuse ov venue... in other arenas, economics is cited as the anchor holding back web-publishing--folks don't want to give away what they might otherwise sell--that surely can't apply to poetry... btw, ron--yeah, gestetner still exists, but they don't make mimeos anymore. i recently picked one up used, no parts available & the office had to xerox a salesman's copy of the manual to send me--mimeo paper is hard to find, too. i got the thing so i could try cutting stencils w/ my imagewriter dot-matirix printer, trying to optimize some photoshop filters so i can scan in grafix & not punch out the stencil to black... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 09:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: WEB presses Comments: cc: Loss Glazier > && in weighing the web as possible & actual... all of the folks > here on the list are obviously connected--how many of you publish > your work here? what percentages ov work are available on net/ > paper/both? praps more importantly, how much work that you want > to _read_ is available online? keeping in mind the oft-stated > generosity of the Electronic Poetry Center to post/host/archive, > so there's little excuse ov venue... in other arenas, economics > is cited as the anchor holding back web-publishing--folks don't > want to give away what they might otherwise sell--that surely > can't apply to poetry... I like the thought that these are Web "presses". That apporach helps put Web circulation ona plane parallel to print and helps to dispel the romantic notion that if it's printed on paper someone will read it. (Per the comment that - what was it half the world lives some distance from the nearest phone line? - If a person were thus remote it doesn't mean the first thing they would pack in would be a book.) And anyone who has published via a small press (everyone here?) just because it's published doesn't mean someone will read it. Per luigi, nor buy it. So, like a press, it's a mechanism for _putting it out there_. There are some people reading the web who aren't reading books. It's also a way to circulate writings without the labor/consumption of materials involved in print (of course it also becomes more ephemeral--somewhat like publishing your book on newsprint) and without the TIME lag inherent (though not technologically binding) of the publisher/printing/process. Curiously it may be a 'control' isssue ie that people feel that if it's in a book it's more under control that if it's in electrons. Control is simply tough in any format. When Michael Jackson can own Beatles songs and sell them for commercials, I think there isn't any control in any form. Control is tough. Best control is the desk drawer, I suppose. So what gives? Per luigi's thought, is it a matter of selling it? I guess it depends what you write _for_. Circulation, fame, the creation of a marketable commodity. If it's circulation, the web will NOT immediately (NOR EVER--don't forget that CD-ROMs (physical, sellable, packaged 'information' products) may be the closer parallel to BOOKS than the Web--the Web is more similar to old radio programs with poets) replace the book. But perhapst here are certain texts more appropriate to the Web--out of print chapbooks, a writing about Chiapas, an essay just delivered at the MLA to which you'd like to receive some feedback, a specific chapbook of your wrting that you'd like to circulate--may all either satisfy their own purpose by being read--or produce a later sale of your work since people have a sense of what it's about. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 12:27:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: worldwide web presses In-Reply-To: <199601061225.EAA25508@ix7.ix.netcom.com> Except, Ron, that the last thing maybe that China needs is poets - and the first may be interconnectivity, given what happens to dissidents there. Alan ( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 12:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: WEB presses In-Reply-To: <199601061421.JAA12418@lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu> Books are expensive; the Net's not. It's as simple as that. I can't afford poetry books and for the cost of two of them can read on-line day in and day out for a month. My own work is totally available on the Net, even the recent articles. Very few people would ever print it in any case, and this way people can see for themselves. The Net's democratizing and flattens power. You want to read it, you read it. You want to delete, you delete... As far as the initial costs go, for the first year (as I think I've pointed out) I used an old IBM XT I purchased for $100, or around $8.50 a month. Alan ( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 12:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Viz Africa inertnet a friend of mine who used to play bass for Too Skinnee J's was in Zimbabwe over November setting up Zimbabwe Online and come to think of it I haven't heard from him since then Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:14:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Welcome, my friends... At 01:33 AM 1/5/96 -0800, Eryque Gleason wrote: >>...to a poem that never ends: > >don't look now folks, but i think he's talking about rengaing! Meow meow, Eryque. :-) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:46:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: rhythm I chanced on _Telling Rhythm_ recently and was intrigued by the conception of poetic rhythm as a route to and from the "prison of language". There is, of couse, space here to only include brief quotes, but I am interested in responses from members of the list.. Tom Bell - "Poems are allegories of the sublime power of their rhythm. Their images and themes represent the power of rhythm, while the very words that convey to us these images and themes physically manifest that rhythm. Yet at the same time, the power of rhythm is not a meaning effect; it does not participate in the process of signification. It is a power without rational meaning - a sublime force. The images and themes of poetry are ways of telling rhythm and thus of representing the unrepresentable, and these elements of content also represent their _inability_ to fulfill their mission. Yet the specific manner in which the language of a poem attempts and fails to represent the sublime power of its rhythm and in which it acknowledges the fact that rhythm is beyond its reach - _how_ the poems language tells this story - an be meaningfully situated in history and culture. Poetry is a moment of encounter between the specifically, historically engaged and the sublime, between the socially constructed body and the rhythmic body at free play among constructs. As such, poetry challenges socially prevailing concepts, dislodging them momentarily so that they can change as part of historical processes." Aviram, Amittai, _Telling Rhythm: Body and Meaning in Poetry_, Ann Arbor, MI, University of Michigan Press, 1994, p. 223. p. 131. Sublimity in Nietzshe is to be found not in the next world but in this; it is not ordinarily visible, not because it is essentially not physical, but precisely because we are constructed as metaphysical subjects and therefore blind to it. Poetry at least leads us in the direction of undoing that metaphysical subjectivity and opening the way to the sublimity of the physical world." p. 24. in this case the figures of speech indicate something that cannot be brought into speech diretly - the physical experience of the sublime power of sound and rhythm. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 06:57:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lydia & Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: rhythm Tom Bell posted, quoting Aviram Amittai, "Poems are allegories of the sublime power of their rhythm. Their images and themes represent the power of rhythm, while the very words that convey to us these images and themes physically manifest that rhythm.... The images and themes of poetry are ways of telling rhythm and thus of representing the unrepresentable, and these elements of content also represent their inability to fulfill their mission...." This is a stirring argument, one that quite openly ventures to restore a transcendent quality to poetry. To be possible , at least on my reading of this excerpt, this seems to depend on a change of emphasis, form "representation" to "enactment," on the level of production and reception. This I find a very timely and provocative idea, since it gets to the very base of mediation. Enactment probably should begin to replace representation in certain contexts, but how can this be implemented? This is in part a semiotic argument. As far as I can tell from this excerpt Amittai is arguing for rhythm, because he believes it can evade, and therefore by extension, transcend signification. This is probably not true. Ray Birdwhistell's work in kinesics ("Kinesics and Context," U of Pennsylvania P, 1970) proved that at least for some bodily movements there are isolatable "kinemes," signifying units of movement and motion. In his experiments he was able to isolate some twenty-odd kinemes of the face and head. A more thorough investigation of rhythm would probably find it no less mysterious. Discounting the transcendent quality of Amittai's argument, I would tend to agree that more kinesthetic or kinemic approaches to literature would be useful. The distinction between a linguistic (language by itself) and a paralinguistic (meaningful activity coincident with language) analysis should probably not be maintained. The difficulty of this approach is that it demands an almost complete reevaluation of temporal and spatial models. At issue is finding a means of "enacting" enactment. To that extent I agree completely. Ward Tietz rte de St. Cergue, 48a CH-1260 Nyon Switzerland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 04:25:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Alan, I tend not to think of poets as luxuries. When the Tienamen Square massacre occurred, among the people picked up and arrested were the members of the ComputerLand franchise there. As I recall, C'Land lost $9 million worth of PCs in all of that. Maybe Simon Schuchat or the fellow who's at SUNY from China could speak to this. My own sense is simply extrapolated from a knowledge of how things were handled in the old USSR, back when (1) it had all of 33 international phone lines and (2) you need permission from on high to have the key to the photocopy room. Beyond which is the cost factor, etc, the applicability of the technology in the local environment. People who've spent time in Myanmar tell me that there are more cellular phones per capita there than anywhere. That's one way to avoid hardwiring the country, but PCs are still 5 years from comfortably reaching that stage here. Hell, every time I move here, I find myself dropping new phone lines so that the modem won't tie up the voice line. Ron > >Except, Ron, that the last thing maybe that China needs is poets - and >the first may be interconnectivity, given what happens to dissidents there. > >Alan > >( http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html >Images at http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ ) > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:08:05 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Agree with the comments re cost of consumption of Web pages being prohibitive, but these are early, early days for the Web. I keep seeing articles on video artists doing "pieces" via ISDN: isn't this much more "elitist" than the Web, considering the cost of an ISDN connection (at least in this little corner of the Pacific - several hundred a month if you're lucky enough to be near an existing cable)? The point is, we can experiment _now_ with the possibilities of new technology: I don't see any ethical advantage with waiting for the technology to be as cheap as a VCR. With minority interest fields such as poetry, the Web can offer wider distribution than print media. How many of the forementioned 3rd-worlders x number of km from the nearest phone are likely to be reading a chapbook with a print-run of 200, anyhow? The Web makes a concept such as "print run" nearly obsolete. One also gets around the narrow focus of book importers and retailers: I'd wager that there is more contemporary US & UK poetry (at least "contemporary" as list-ers here would recognise) on the Web than on all NZ book shelves combined. And although yer average Nethead isn't likely to be looking for Langpo on the Web, it's surprising what one can stumble across when surfing (and I prefer the verb "stumble" to "surf" - it has a whiff of the almost drunken sensuality that I feel when groping through the cyberspatial dark at the fag end of a night shift). I keep being astonished by the delicious obscurity of some of the subjects I come across, and delighted by the eclectic nature of people's home pages. It's nice to know that one person can have links to pages on opera, molecular biology, coffee, The Simpsons, Andy Warhol and Sappho. Just a few thoughts at 1.30am, Tom Beard. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 08:23:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: _To the Best of Our Knowledge_ Radio alert: I just heard a fifteen minute interview with Charles Bernstein (including clips of Ron Silliman and others) on a public radio program called _To the Best of Our Knowledge_. It plays at different times on different stations, so listen for it-- Rachel Loden PS The whole hour is devoted to "poetry," so be warned. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Tom Beard, have you stumbled on a sappho link? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 10:27:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Davis Subject: Re: worldwide web presses >And although yer average Nethead isn't likely to be looking for Langpo on the >Web As a matter of fact, the first time the potential of the Web really struck me (a hitherto technoskeptic) was in fall of '93 when I bumped into a translation by Lyn Hejinian at the IATH site. It's easier to find Langpo while browsing the Web than while browsing the shelves of an impoverished rural library or an occasional shopping mall Waldenbooks, such as the ones I was restricted to in high school. A book _can_ go places a Web site can't, but chances are that any single book _will not_ be printed in as many copies as there are readers with access to that Web site. Though the initial outlay for one PC is higher than the initial outlay for one book, the Web offers much wider distribution of a much wider variety of material than most readers could afford to buy and most publishers could afford to print. If you publish for any reason other than profit, I don't see why you wouldn't want to publish on the Web. Ray ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 11:18:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: worldwide web presses Of course the Net and the Web aren`t exactly democratic: I wonder if the speed of the web-server(s), in conjunction with the number of content-providers; can be considered the equivalent of print`s ad-revenue w.r.t. circulation-figures. No doubt, we`ll be seeing such officious numerology shorty. /:b -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project: ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace photo-art: ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr / a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg -> Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:00:19 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: worldwide web presses In-Reply-To: <199601071225.EAA22162@ix7.ix.netcom.com> since you ask, I don't think poets are a luxury either. The role of the poet/writer/public intellectual is somewhat different in china than in the US, there is a lot of historical baggage tied up with that. Liu Binyan's autobiography "A Higher Kind of Loyalty" (I think Knopf or Pantheon) is very good for understanding that. A review of Bei Dao's poetry by Stephen Owen, published in the New Republic probably four years ago, is also very useful for understanding some of the situation of the poet in China today. Interconnectivity seems to be growing in the PRC. There are commercial internet providers in the PRC now. There is also a growing computer market (I just read that Microsoft and Compaq are sponsoring a 26 episode sitcom on Beijing TV about a typical urban Chinese family and their new computer!) although I seem to recall an estimate of 3 million PCs in all of China. As long as the focus is on making money, the authorities will do everything in their power to encourage it, since they want to be in charge of a rich and powerful country. They seem to recognize that only 33 international phone lines and locking up the xerox machine played a major part in making the Soviet Union an impoverished, hollow mess. But they are also afraid of losing control and recent history suggests they will do whatever they believe is necessary. Cell phones are an Asian ubiquity. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:26:50 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "MATTHEW..HART" <9265000@ARRAN.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Student Mail Service Subject: Call for Work Dear All, First off, hello and happy new year. I've just this very minute subscribed to this listserv and look forward to receiving your postings. As I've only fairly limited access to e-mail (no on-line terminal at home, and so dependent on the vagaries of Edinburgh University Library, god bless 'em) my replies and so on might not be a prompt as I'd like. That said, a brief announcement . . . I am currently editing the fifth issue of IBID magazine, a new writing pamphlet coming out of Edinburgh University. Previous issues have included poetry and prose by writers such as Edwin Morgan, Don Paterson, Jackie Kaye, Ian Crichton Smith, W.N. Herbert, Andrew Greig etc. As this list suggests, a Scottish bias is in evidence, although the editors are anxious to see more work from outwith Scotland and the U.K. -- a process begun in IBID 3, featuring new work by Bob Perelman and younger American writers. Prose, prose-poetry and experimental work are also strongly encouraged. Should anyone require more information please e-mail Matthew.Hart@arran.sms.ed.ac.uk Alternatively, queries or MSS may be sent to the following address: Matthew Hart, IBID, 36/5 Drummond St., Edinburgh, EH8 9TT. Scotland. Please consider contributing your work, and please enclose an SAE or International Reply Coupon(s) for valued manuscripts. Best Wishes, Matt Hart. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:28:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: worldwide web presses dear schuchat? "impoverished hollow mess"---due to 33 int'l phone lines? is the usa an impoverished hollow mess too? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:15:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Mark Nowak i heard that Mark Nowak is setting up an "event" in Feb in mnpls. C'est vrai? When? Does anyone have Mark's email address? Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:41:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Mark Nowak >i heard that Mark Nowak is setting up an "event" in Feb in mnpls. C'est >vrai? When? Does anyone have Mark's email address? > >Bill Luoma > Yes, Bill. Mark's email address is manowak@stkate.edu I hope that's current, as it's been a long time since I've emailed him. But I believe the February event is on, that it's February 10, and that it's a small press book fair, particularly for presses in this area. But you should ask Mark about the details. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:34:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mark Nowak mark's e-address is manowak@alex.stkates.edu or maybe just stkate without the s. best, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:04:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Re: worldwide web presses as for the video angle Dec. 24, 1985, Banaue, Philippines, an ancient rice terrace in the northernmost island - Christmas video in the town square TV- The Ten Commandments... Jan. 1986, Manila, 9pm open air video - the Killing Fields - appropriate seeing Marcos was deathly afraid of the NPR (two months later Aquino was speaking before a crowd of a million in the same park).... Jan. 1986, Jolo, near Malaysia, in Moro National Liberation Front home - strictly Muslim - watching video of bantam weight boxing with a commander... after lunch, blood stains in the middle of the street... oh what a tangled.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george hartley Subject: Re: worldwide web presses I myself have mixed feelings about the following passage, but thought it might spark some interest: from Gayatri Spivak, "Scattered Speculations on the Question of Value" in : "The literary academy emphasizes when necessary that the American tradition at its best is one of individual Adamism and the lossening of frontiers. In terms of political activism within the academy, this free spirit exercises itself at its best by analyzing and calculating predictable strategic effects of specific measures of resistance: boycotting consumer items, demonstrating against investments in countries with racist domestic politics, uniting against genocidal foreign policy. Considering the role of telecommunication in entrenching the international division of labor and the oppression of women, this free spirit should subject its unbridled passion to the same conscientious scrutiny. The 'freeing' of the subject as superadequation in labor-power entails an absence of extra-economic coercion as exploitation is hidden from sight in 'the rest of the world.' "These sentiments expressed at a public forum drew from a prominent U.S. leftist the derisive remark: 'She will deny the workers their capuccino!' I am not in fact suggesting that literary critics should be denied word-processors. My point is that the question of Value in its 'materialist' articulation must be asked as the capuccino-drinking worker and the word-processing critic actively forget the actual price-in-exploitation of the machine producing coffee and words." p. 167. How is this related to the charge that Language Poetry is elitist? George Hartley gehartle@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 2023 Queensbridge Dr. Columbus, OH 43235 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:00:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Dear george hartley---it seems one must make several steps in order to "apply" spivack's statement to the question of whether language poetry is elitist. First, she's dealing with "critics" and "academic" workers primarily, and the picture she paints of her antagonistic interlocutor seems purposely absurd: "she will deny our cappicino!" Spivack is of (delete "of") is echoing Marx's definition of what property is, as if to reassure one that they will be allowed to keep their trinkets, etc. and that the current ideology of "middle classes" is an ideological ruse and that almost all of us are PROPERTYLESS and workers and thus working against our own interests when we engage in acts, or further ideologies, that appeal to the bourgeoisie. Now--as to whether this can be related to "language poetry," the question can go several ways. On one level, it seems the question must be taken out of the academy. But not only does the poetry circulate in the academy, some of the poets do. And the question of how the "poetry" relates to the "poet" or the "person" becomes something that might need to be taken up more and more, and if there is the same kind of "false consciousness" at work in such situations that spivack satirizes in the figure of the cappucino colleague. And one may long for a world that DOES NOT FORGET that labour power involved, and sees a solidarity with "Juan Valdez", in a classic Marxist fashion. Yet it seems (at least in the passage you quoted, but even in what I've read of Spivack's larger project) that the force of critique stops there, and since SHE TOO is implicated in "the teaching machine" that, on one level, the proletarian interests she may claim to speak for becomes equally textualized---and just as a friend of mine once caught robert bly, an avowed vegetarian, red handed with red-meat, one may question how her ideological war against INDIVIDUALIST atoms may mystify a very particular investment she has in individualism. Just maybe! Insofar as certain poetries (whether lang or no) call attention to the realpolitik of the academic workplace and its relationships to global capitalism, they may be seen as allied to Spivack's project (though not insofar as she's "against literature" and even "literature against literature" as such). And that much of it does call attention to the possibility that CAPPUCINO and WORD PROCESSORS are not necessarily indicative of "progress" or "privilege" or the other images propogated by media hype of the benefits of increasingly alienated labour, but in fact as alienating as the migrant fruit workers, the $1 a day home-labour subaltern: The YUPPIE-FLU "service economy" technocrat is as unhappy in his or her "privilege" as the overworked coffee picker. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE means that the top-heavy consumer and the bottomheavy producer can be united and some kind of cultural revolution should occur that allows the lower classes the privilege of labouring in the mind and at the same time stops over-comodifying INTELLECTUAL LABOUR-POWER in the academy ("publish or perish") and gives up on the idea of the autonomous "work" of the intellect that likes to delude itself it's FULFILLED by labouring in the mind every day and every night, the mind and only the mind AND HAS TO PAY TO GO TO A GYM TO WORK-OUT because those needs are not being met by its profession. Therefore, of course, it's elitist. But then we are all implicated---even the "easy to understand" poets. I left a lot of holes, but I guess I kinda made my point. Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:42:47 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: _Sanage_ From Resisting F/r/ame series is my new book _Sanage Adventure Field_. (sa-na-gay, Japanese pronunciation, is a loosely coupled language points, with switches, lost parts, some reconnections.) Interested, let me know. $US10 to get it to your door. Or I'll be in Auckland Feb & March at 5/63 Willerton Ave, New Lynn, Auckland, NZ. best John Geraets frank@dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: outside in the web press In-Reply-To: <01HZSEBEPUXE8Y8WT7@cnsvax.albany.edu> from "Chris Stroffolino" at Jan 9, 96 02:00:16 am Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > subaltern: The YUPPIE-FLU "service economy" technocrat is as unhappy in > his or her "privilege" as the overworked coffee picker. WAKE UP AND SMELL > THE COFFEE means that the top-heavy consumer and the bottomheavy producer > can be united and some kind of cultural revolution should occur that > allows the lower classes the privilege of labouring in the mind and > at the same time stops over-comodifying INTELLECTUAL LABOUR-POWER in the > academy ("publish or perish") and gives up on the idea of the autonomous > "work" of the intellect that likes to delude itself it's FULFILLED by Chris: can't completely agree here. It's true -- truer than many would acknowledge -- that the position of intellectual (better, I think, *teaching*) laborer is an alienated one. But I can't make the leap from the alienation (in the technical Marxian sense) of that worker to the hard-core class and North/South exploitation (and homeland destruction) of the coffee pickers. Among other things, this seems to erase a great deal of history. 2) While it's true that Spivak's personal life seems not altogether to comport with her theoretical positions, as you suggest, you could also look at it in terms of her *professional* life, wherein she has, often singlehandedly, created or defended positions that have turned out, in retrospect, to have a great deal of value in contradistinction to the more orthodox views of the time. I think in the passage from "Scattered Speculations," for example, she is point to some of the self-satisfaction expressed by early 80s campus activists and the implication of same in the systems they were apparently contesting. In retrospect this phenomenon seems real. There are much better examples, though, like her defense of deconstruction, and her continued support/defense of Marx, and her insistence on reading the figure of "woman" in Derrida, and so on. 3) How to relate this to langpo? Howabout this: to ask the question, what is the degree to which -- or maybe where is the dividing line -- between persons who engage in langpo-type writing because of their commitment to a (whatever) perceived subversive/liberatory potential, and those who, especially through the academy, do so because it's the thing to do of the moment -- and might be the Blys or Kinnells (Jrs) of another day. Thus subverting, in their adherence, exactly what the first-named practitioners had in mind, and doing what to "the project"? And in the Spivakian spirit, not directly to answer this question, but only to open it? And if one feels like it, about cultural studies as well? -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:33:39 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: worldwide web pressed by debarked In-Reply-To: <01HZSEBEPUXE8Y8WT7@cnsvax.albany.edu>; from "Chris Stroffolino" at Jan 9, 96 2:00 am Sanity drools! over its own excess. - Is this perhaps the press talk of? But George Hartley asks another sort of question: How might the Chargex card be used in the econonmy of a theory whose surplus value is drunken like the capuccino that Language Writing then becomen? Too easily, too easily, dear indebted friends. Awake on the bean, poetry is like a spoon / with one stipulation: at high noon, in Mexico City, the smog stirs. Up the price-in-exploitation of the machine, violins. Hey grinders - sprayed from Hartley's good blade - wouldn't you say, indubitably, elitism is a class concept: yet is it used as such by those who (who) "charge it" against - and ex: out of - their careers? "Brute point"? Yoplay: from "Elite 1" Swift Current Saskatchewan is at the centre. - Fred Wah Ok? Moreover, from "Music at the Heart of Thinking One Oh Four (SNAP for Hannike Buch)" Being born grammatically correct - Fred Wah Q.E.D. The charge of elitism, yawn. An Ionescosaurus charge, _ok_, once in a while, the little house will quake, right? It's a little house! "In this regard, then, the professoriat [who be dat] may take up the challenge of reconceptualizing classes - workers' relations to what they produce - only to discover greater solidarity than they had expected with the political and economic situations of workers in more demonstrably material jobs." Like Chris S says. Jameson wouldn't like this homologizing of course, which is too sixties French for him (Clint, do you grike?). "We [wee-wees] can learn from . . . novelists [about] . . . how to use socially powerful [ ] genres to cut across the grain [Is the bean a grain], to transvalue [more typically, transvest] the conventions for reception for which there is already tacit acceptance [indeed, taciturnly so]. In our electronically mediated postmodernity, film and television and computer technologies ought to be the sites for what was once [,huh,] considered the subversions of the literary avant-garde. And as 'residual' forms, literary modes of production might find new purposes in contesting the rhetorical and technological powers (and thus class divisions) of our new socioeconomic configurations." (Both quotes, John Carlos Rowe, "The Writing Class," _Politics, Theory, and Contemporary Culture_, ed. Mark Poster.) But I thought that, you know, that, like.... Anyway what happens to the configuration "Spivak" if her project or a bit of it is used to relate avantgarde writing to "elitism" for the purpose of critiquing such relations? Like Chris says. Did anyone ever locate her article on Perelman's poetry? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Minneapolis Events (fwd) guyzies, thanks for the help on Mark Nowak's email address. He sent this note back. Sounds like fun. Hope there is snow. dr antonio blizzardo --------------------- Forwarded message: From: MANOWAK@alex.stkate.edu To: MAZ881@AOL.COM Date: 96-01-08 14:50:22 EST Bill, hello.... Charles Alexander forwarded a poetics list message you sent to me: yes, I'm planning as part of a yearly series of readings/talks I program through the College of St. Catherine-Minneapolis, to host a regional MICRO:'zine/press showcase & forum on Saturday, Feb 10th. About 15 parties (or more) have been invited, including Chax Press, Detour Press, Standing Stones Press, Lightning & Ash, Disturbed Guillotine, Oracular Editions, Rain Taxi, Wire Mother, Thin Coyote, etc. etc. etc. Books & 'zines will be for sale, editors will be giving a brief (oh... Poetic Briefs, too!)... a brief talk about their journal, etc. Also scheduled for this spring are readings by George Kalamaras and Diane Glancy (the later at the Minneapolis American Indian Center), a talk by Jack Zipes, etc. I'll be at this e-mail address today & tomorrow (Tues) if you have further questions. Then, I'll be in Maine until the 16th & Buffalo until the 21st. Back after that, for the winter haul... Until... Mark Nowak ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:24:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: outside in the web press David, to make a "leap" between two kinds of exploitation is to make a "link." And though this may "erase a great deal of history", if there is to be any sense of solidarity between the two, it seems it must be made...especially in an America in which many were duped by the promise that somehow white-collar work was somehow less exploit- ative than blue collar, and that even those in say a $35,ooo a year job who are able to buy VCR's etc need to rethink the oppression they are subject to and not just in the workplace. Sure, issues such as "homeland destruction" are not as acutely felt in the "first world" as in other places. But the destruction of inner cities, the displaced nomadism, the indentured servant status that is increasingly a reality for most academic workers, etc., etc., does wreak havoc too, and seems to discourage not only unionization, collective engagement, even "community" but its effects can be seen even even on the more "basic human" or "domestic" levels of "love" and the possibility of "family". It's not as much of a problem if one is "economically secure" but as tenure track job security seems to be going the way of the dinosaurs, this myth of individual security that has compensa- ted for the breakdown and destruction of our american homelands--- ie. what used to be called the american dream (not the homelands, but the anti-community myth; the "I got mine, don't worry about his") seems to call for something more than Spivack's rather specialized form of professional "critique"--- Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:03:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: rhythm John Corbett argues in "Writing Around Free Improvisation," (I don't have the book nearby so I'll have to paraphrase) that music is not exactly a-signifcant, it merely presents a process of signification without semantic content. Rhythm might be read the same way -- it points not to content but to activity, performance, enactment. There would seem to be a connection here with a good deal of recent poetic experiments (Clark Coolidge, for instance), where the cognitive context demanded is one of immediate experience first -- of the material aspects of language (sound, rhythm, voice, breath) -- and only secondarily (if at all) semantic reference... A distinction between presentation and re-presentation might be in order as well (i.e. to "represent the unrepresentable" might also be read as a _presentation_ of the unrecognized or unrecognizable, what Brathwaite has in mind when he writes at the end of _The Arrivants_: now waking making making with their rhythms some- thing torn and new that the 'creative' in poetry is precisely its ability to skirt this tear -- to trace the jagged, cutting edge of old and new, known and unknown, real and unreal, represented and unrepresented. It's certainly worthy of note also that such terms have a pronounced socio-political significance in Brathwaite's work and a particular cultural meaning to the conditon which Brathwaite addresses. The unrepresentable, that is, in our inherited discourse is not so esoteric is it might sometimes seem... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Minneapolis Events (fwd) dang! why do all the fun things in mpls happen in my absence? keep those homefires burning, mark and charles and marta and gary et al et al et al et al...et al be back soon. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 03:34:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Minneapolis Events (fwd) >dang! why do all the fun things in mpls happen in my absence? keep those >homefires burning, mark and charles and marta and gary et al et al et al et >al...et al be back soon. >md > > Maria, we do it just to make sure you will come back one of these days. You are missed here. charles ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: worldwide web presses **********begin forwarded msg. Message #417 (425 is last): Date: Wed Jan 10 01:48:36 1996 From: 102012.1273@compuserve.com (Robert Kendall) Subject: New Homepage To: ht_lit@spiff.ccs.carleton.ca (ht_lit) Reply-To: ht_lit@consecol.org Some of you on this list had asked about an electronic version of my article "Writing for the New Millennium," which appeared in the Nov/Dec issue of Poets & Writers Magazine. I'm pleased to say the article is now available on my new homepage at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rkendall Right now, it doesn't include any of the illustrations, though I hope to add these later as time permits. Also on the page you'll find other articles I've written, samples of my poetry, and the course guide and syllabus for "Hypertext Poetry and Fiction," the class I teach on-line for the New School for Social Research, which starts Jan. 29. --Rob Kendall end forwarded msg.********** robert's article is primarily a review/overview of disk-based hypertext, rather than online, but still might be of interest... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: sympathy for the individual DG wrote: 3) How to relate this to langpo? Howabout this: to ask the question, what is the degree to which -- or maybe where is the dividing line -- between persons who engage in langpo-type writing because of their commitment to a (whatever) perceived subversive/liberatory potential, and those who, especially through the academy, do so because it's the thing to do of the moment -- and might be the Blys or Kinnells (Jrs) of another day. Thus subverting, in their adherence, exactly what the first-named practitioners had in mind, and doing what to "the project"? And in the Spivakian spirit, not directly to answer this question, but only to open it? And if one feels like it, about cultural studies as well? So, then, what would a subversion of that primal impulse look like? An academicism? Were Bly and Kinnell academic poets, subverting some radical impulse (e.g. Snyder's and.. whose?), or were they uninteresting in some totally new direction? And what exactly is problematic with an academicized or bandwagon language poetry. It sounds like fun of the most awful and tedious kind. (The rock and roll stations in new york have dropped the classic rock format and now only play "modern rock"--commercial alternative.) That kind of fun, if repeated way past ad nauseam, might actually get us somewhere. (Or, the only thing that keeps the class distinction going is the prolonged _uncanny luck_ of the so-called ruling class? Where does the structural duplication of class function for intellectual workers and proletariat workers lead--nowhere, buddy. I don't think ((even with thousands of hours of M*A*S*H, Cheers and Miami Vice under my hat)) that film and television are the _new poetries_ as Rowe suggests in Cabri's post--anybody grok Wm Gibson's _Difference Engine_ in which Keats gives up med school for computer graphics? ((I thought "difference engine" meant Gibson was studying Bakhtin)) I think poetry is the new poetry, and not to be too too boosterish, I think the time for keen analysis of the decay of our situation is (ahem, always-already?) past. lost, Jordan PS new from Golden Books, 132 N First St Apt 2, Brooklyn NY 11211 _A Little Gold Book_ $5, 16 pp., 4 1/2 x 5 1/2", mylar, vellum, colored papers (three poems) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:56:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: outside in the web press In-Reply-To: <01HZT8WC01L68Y4YC1@cnsvax.albany.edu> from "Chris Stroffolino" at Jan 9, 96 04:24:23 pm Chris, man, this is getting too complicated for me. labor theory of surplus value, monopoly capital, third world exploitation, yadda yadda yadda. Sweezey, Schumpeter, R.P. Wolff. Besides, I mostly agree with most of what you wrote. And we may soon come under the D. Higgins rule for non-poetics POETICS talk. Now, what about those Knicks? (but I don't follow sports -- alienation of the masses, fetishization of success and competitation, etc.). -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:25:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: sympathy for the individual In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:55:41 -0500 from Thank you for Jordan, for wading in where some of us have hesitated. The question, "Where is the dividing line -- between persons who engage in langpo-type writing because of their commitment to a (whatever) perceived subversive/liberatory potential, and those who, especially through the academy, do so because it's the thing to do of the moment -- and might be the Blys or Kinnells (Jrs) of another day." [remember this began with "The question..."] implies that some poetries are more real than others, and that it requires the right intention for the work to matter. It also suggests that non-confessional poetry is BIG at the moment in such ways that I don't quite perceive. Almost a decade ago, I suggested to Charles Bernstein that Langugae Poetry had "won" -- had earned its place within the larger poetic context (and along with say "Burning Deck" poetry, was primary to many of us who had finally found poetry that made us _care_ about poetry). But, as Marjorie Perloff suggested only a few months ago, (and this is a paraphrase) it ain't that rosy for the language-oriented poet. Who wins the prizes? Who gets the NEA fellowships, state arts fellowships? Whose books are big? Occasionally it is someone whose work delights me. Often, that is far from the case. So let's start a civil war among those who are doing curious work? Let's throw out those who don't _seem_ to be true believers? I'm sorry to say, we don't have Andre Breton to serve as judge and jury... Or rather, I'm happy to say so. Now, I'm getting off my high horse. Cheers, Gale ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:20:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: reet elite In-Reply-To: <199601100507.AAA18321@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> "How is it possible to _underestimate_ literature, literary criticism, the elaboration of a profoundly new method, and taking this to the masses, as one day, God willing, we shall take every God damn thing we are doing to the masses. Let them reject it. We will not assume that they will in advance." --C. L. R. James 1948 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:13:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Langpo (fwd) ZURICH, Switzerland (Reuter) - Albert Hofmann, the Swiss chemist who invented LSD in 1943, celebrates his 90th birthday Thursday still convinced his discovery would have medical uses if research had not been blocked by a worldwide ban. Hofmann accidently created ``acid'' while researching a migraine cure at Swiss chemical company Sandoz in Basle and became the world's first tripper by testing it on himself, resulting in a hallucinogenic bicycle ride home. LSD became the trademark of the 1960s hippie generation, resulting in a complete ban under narcotics laws that ended research on its potential in medicinal and psychological treatment. ``They tossed out the baby with the bathwater,'' Hofmann told Reuters from his home near Basle. ``I regret that LSD was banned because it was done due to abuse by the drug culture, not due to its medical properties.'' Hofmann said he believes the drug should be made available to the medical profession, like heroin or morphine, and that psychiatrists should be able to test it in treating disorders. Hofmann received numerous rewards in his career for less controversial discoveries, including substances for treating old age illnesses, post-birth bleeding and circulatory problems. ``I've been celebrating all week. Last weekend it was colleagues from around Europe, tomorrow I will have a small private party and at the weekend there's big family party,'' he said. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: reet elite right on aldon (courtesy of clr james). i'm getting to where i can tell yr posts by the titles alone. james's monition to not assume in advance the alienation of any particular type of discourse from the masses reminds me of one of my favorite anecdotes that i always tell my activist-oriented students when they complain about the elitist "difficulty" of much theory and poetry that is ideologically "on the right side." cesaire was asked about the "elitism" of writing in a french, and with surrealistic techniques so sophisticated, erudite and inventive that the simple illiterate martiniquan peasant had no chance of understanding his verse. au contraire, he said, they have less difficulty than anyone in understanding it. reminds me also of susan schultz's piece in Chain, where she writes that the local Hawai'ian poets had no trouble w/ C Bernstein and enjoyed his visit there tremendously, though the well-meaning lit. faculty of U Hawai'i expressed concern about his inaccessibility to specifically those poets. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:53:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: lsd... re hoffman: well worth checking out is bobby rabyd's ht, _albert hoffman's strange mistake_ (also known as _lsd 50_, to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the discovery of acid)... it used to be available free at an ftp site, i'm sure it's someplace on the web... joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts The following message has been posted by Australian Writing Online for The Sydney Fringe Writers Festival. Enquiries about the title or service listed below should be directed to The Sydney Fringe Writers Festival at the contacts listed. Babel: The Sydney Fringe Writers Festival Sunday 14 January 1996 Paddington Town Hall presented by Ariel Booksellers & the Sydney Fringe Festival Program 11am in the main hall Young Sydney Poets Trisha Pender Michael Brennan Rod Marsh Kirsten Tranter Jane Gibian MC - Adrian Wiggins 1.30 lunch 2pm Readings and discussion Jane Sloan Mandy Sayer John A Scott Anna Gibbs Mc - Annemarie Lopez 3pm Rosemary Sorensen will launch WASTE by Sarina Achilles (Local Consumption Press) in the Ern Malley Memorial Bar. 4.30pm in the Main Hall fiction & performance Tom Flood berni m janssen Tongue 'n' Groove Mc - Tyler Coppin Tickets per session $7/$5(conc), day pass $15/$10(conc). available from Ariel Bookstore 42 Oxford Street Paddington ph 02 332 4581 or The Sydney Fringe Festival Office ph 02 365 0112. Tickets available at the door. Entry to the bookstore, bar and the launch of WASTE is free. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:11:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Aimone Subject: New discussion list Comments: To: abow0001@GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU Please reproduce this announcement freely. Announcement: Discussion list for graduate students in the modern languages E-Grad is intended principally as a sheltered but open forum for the concerns of graduate students in the modern languages. It is maintained by members of the Graduate Student Caucus, an allied organization of the MLA. As an allied organization, GSC does not represent the MLA. Rather, it is a group of its members, who are graduate students. You do not need to be a member of the MLA or the GSC to subscribe to E-Grad. 1) Send a message to listproc@listproc.bgsu.edu 2) Leave everything else blank except for a line in the message section with: subscribe e-grad firstname lastname 3) Shortly after that, you'll get a welcome message which you might want to save. If you have problems or questions, please feel free to e-mail me (Alan Rea) at alan@bgnet.bgsu.edu and I'll be more than happy to help. -- Joe Aimone Department of English University of California, Davis joaimone@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 00:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george hartley Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Dear Chris Stroffolino---some brief impulsive responses (now 2 days late) to your response: > 1. one must make several steps in order to "apply" spivack's statement to >the question of whether language poetry is elitist.< YES, but I'm interested in what these STEPS might be, how often we take these steps, what's at stake in these steps, and who or what steps along with us or against us or doesn't step at all (and who this "us" is or isn't). > 2. echoing Marx's definition of what property is< Property, yes, but also technologies: one of the steps I'm thinking of is the sense of poetry "(whether lang or no)" as a type of technology or, perhaps more to the point, as often characterized as being dependent on types of technologies--educations, literacies, means of access. In other words (In Other Worlds), to what extent is the academy a privileged technology that makes poetry-technology accessible to us, even if we ourselves are not associated with and are not educated by such edu-technologies? Is this the same question as Ideological State Apparatuses? And what mechanisms for redirecting those "teaching machines" might there be? In the belly of the beast? Both poetry and education as means of productions? Re-appropriation? or just: > 3. "critics" and "academic" workers< > not only does the poetry circulate in the academy, some of the poets do.< > SHE TOO is implicated in "the teaching machine"< > On one level, it seems the question must be taken out of the academy.< But can you take the academy out of the question? The way the charge is often posed: Doesn't poetry, especially "difficult" poetry, depend on a level of education that is somehow beyond the average worker? what worker? SO: is this type of charge related to the charge that the production of the machinery of communications technology depends on exploitation? And what are the various relationships/reductions/steps involved in this kind of argumentation? two different questions: access, exploitation? > 4. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE means stop over-comodifying INTELLECTUAL >LABOUR-POWER in the academy ("publish or perish") > 5. certain poetries (whether lang or no)/ realpolitik/ academic workplace/ >relationships/ global capitalism = steps > 6. But then we are all implicated---even the "easy to understand" poets.< allied/implicated > 7. the proletarian interests she may claim to speak for become equally >textualized< /poeticized? > 8. the picture she paints of her antagonistic interlocutor seems purposely >absurd< What are the possible politics of the absurd? > 9. the current ideology of "middle classes" is an ideological ruse< CAPPUCINO and WORD PROCESSORS: consumption/production? 10. > The YUPPIE-FLU "service economy" technocrat is as unhappy as > robert bly, > red handed with red-meat, > > Adamism atoms > a very particular investment< 11. let them reject it > even "literature against literature" as such) > against our own interests > the force of critique stops there,< > Justmaybe!< > And one may long for a world that DOES NOT FORGET< a world-wide-web as mnemotechnics? George Hartley gehartle@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 03:08:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Bly, the academy et al I've noted of late a few reference to Bly and Kinnell as academic poets. While both are very different poets to speak, it seems to me a fundamental mistake to characterize Bly as an academic. While he began very much as a conventional poet (you can find some rhymed stuff even if you look in old issues of Poetry from the very early 50s or maybe late 40s), he took a decisive step away from all that well before his first Wesleyan book came out way back when. I forget who his teachers were but the word Macleish runs around in the few remaining braincells I have in that vector left. In any event, to read the Fifties and later the Sixties, Bly was roundly attacking all things academic as well as all things New-American-Poetic. He was precisely the alternative to the New Am tradition available to young writers who felt outside or opposed to the academy. There is in fact a group from that period, including him, John Haines (an Alaskan farmer whose emerged as an active neocon I believe in the pages of the New Criterion) and Wendell Berry (a poet whom I like quite a bit) who all fall quite outside any taxonomy that would just divide the world into New American vs. academic. T'ain't so simple. Whatever one may think of Bly's work (and I think it's been drivel for decades), his forging an audience out of the New Age scene has been a very conscious strategy for creating a life of poetry that did not exist quite like that before. Kinnell on the other hand has never been far from school. He, like Robert Hass, started his career very much as a protege of the late John Logan, a poet who seems quite non-canonized among the literary conservatives even as his students seem to have had just the opposite fate. There are poems in Logan's books worth reading (as almost all of Hass is worth reading) and I'm curious about the critical silence that seems to have fallen over that work. There's a pretty good collection of materials in the library in Buffalo, since he taught there for several years after departing SF State when he "came out." Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 06:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: worldwide web presses Dear George-- Since I find Spivack "hostile to poetry" I would still say "textualize" rather than "poeticize". As for whether poetry exploits, even if it's not "made available by" academia, I shall have to appeal to personal experience. If we consider our "EDUCATION" to be that which distinguishes us, we are either arguing strictly from "pedigree" or we place a faith in the powers of formal education and value what used to be called "intellect" over wildness. And that may have ELITIST ramifications. Of course, the attack on "romanticism" or Jordan's "vitalism" that in some parts is levied, would point to the "always already" cultural privilege that is "mystified" by the terms "intuition" or "wildness." Either, these terms REALLY MEAN "HArvard" beneath it all, or they exclude others. Though the second is a chicken-egg question. Who excludes who? And who really cares? The question of elitism is often figured as a question of "audience development" and vice versa. To the extent one is indifferent to these questions or engages in them as much "in game" as "in earnest", one may feel "outside the teaching machine" or "culture industry." ---assuming the second is wider than the first. There is a myth that I don't always mind NOT being immune to, a memory of a desire for some kind of wild blue yonder or personal intimacy that either leaps over or is found in the nooks and crannies in the culture industry, and this may only be learned at school BY DEFAULT. If I had a stake in trying to prevent people from going to college (like the "system" increasingly seems to have), certainly to say "the best thing you can learn in school is that you can't learn anything in school" would be in my interests. But what if I wanted to assert that as a DEFENSE of our "noble profession" (though I am still a student, I mean "in the way the world speaks")? Perhaps this is the ABSURDITY--like people flocking to hear Dylan sing "you shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you." But what of those who can't afford school, and thus may be deluded into thinking (coz of TV, perhaps? An ISA Althusser downplayed too much) that they CAN learn something real and substantial from school besides a fashionable or marketable vocabulary, just as a virgin may be apt to believe that sex can solve his (if not her?) problems. And I could appeal to my own circumstances, "story" here. The father who wanted me tro join him in the factory. The mother who, in defiance, worked herself quite literarly to death to pay for an "education" she never had, and for which I am still in debt (even economically) for. Not to claim a BOOTSTRAP mentality here, but to say the TIME she bought me was what gave me access to "elite" poetry more than school. School, even for students, is more of a job. The fact that poetry doesn't pay for most can be seen as liberating, though I like Brecht's "Song of the cut=priced poet" too. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 03:31:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: reet elite Maria, Your post (below) reminds me of something Kit Robinson says about how the only people who ever have any "difficulty" with his poems are certain kinds of grad students and Eng. Dept. faculty who appear to be reading impaired (Kit, if I'm misstating that or misplacing emphasis, please correct me). One more instance of grad school as a learning disorder. I had a great experience once reading at the Maximum Security library in Folsom and working at Hospitality House in the Tenderloin of SF for years convinced me that this great divide between "difficult" poetry and "nonacademic" readers was mostly imposed by the markets of what gets distributed culturally in our society. This does, however, bring up the one difficulty with the James quote Aldon used. The masses in that quote, as so often, seems to stand for a concept of people devoid of their ideological attachments, free radicals so to speak. But to be free of that is to be free of history, is it not? The masses in this sense is a remarkably unMarxian concept, yet it is one that Marxists of all stripes have appealed to for decades. Ron ------------------------ right on aldon (courtesy of clr james). i'm getting to where i can tell yr posts by the titles alone. james's monition to not assume in advance the alienation of any particular type of discourse from the masses reminds me of one of my favorite anecdotes that i always tell my activist-oriented students when they complain about the elitist "difficulty" of much theory and poetry that is ideologically "on the right side." cesaire was asked about the "elitism" of writing in a french, and with surrealistic techniques so sophisticated, erudite and inventive that the simple illiterate martiniquan peasant had no chance of understanding his verse. au contraire, he said, they have less difficulty than anyone in understanding it. reminds me also of susan schultz's piece in Chain, where she writes that the local Hawai'ian poets had no trouble w/ C Bernstein and enjoyed his visit there tremendously, though the well-meaning lit. faculty of U Hawai'i expressed concern about his inaccessibility to specifically those poets. md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:05:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: reet elite In-Reply-To: <199601111131.DAA11283@ix4.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Jan 11, 96 03:31:31 am Would someone please explain what "elitism" means? Was John Coltrane elitist? Ornette Coleman? Who had the larger audience, Ezra Pound or Sun Ra? Did either one give a damn? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:23:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: reet elite I haven't seen the Chain piece, but I wonder if Susan Schultz would comment. Especially in light of the mag she publishes, Tinfish, which contains some work that could be spoken about in similar terms as Cesaire's, epecially the piece by the woman whose name is too long to be conveniently typed out. md wrote: ..reminds me also of susan schultz's ..piece in Chain, where she writes ..that the local Hawai'ian ..poets had no trouble w/ C Bernstein ..and enjoyed his visit there tremendously, ..though the well-meaning lit. faculty of ..U Hawai'i expressed concern about his ..inaccessibility to specifically those poets. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:59:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Bly, the academy et al Ron Silliman writes that it is a mistake to characterize Robert Bly as an academic poet, and that it is important to recognize that Bly is the fundamental figure in forging an audience for poetry out of the New Age scene. The truth of Ron's observations is very obvious here in Minnesota, where Bly is the grand old poet, but where he is actually roundly criticized and dismissed in both academic and experimental or avant-garde (or post-New American Poetry?) circles. Still, he has the largest audience of anyone, and while it's an audience that, unlike the others, is not primarily made up of other poets, it's also one which has been quite activist -- in teaching, in starting presses, and in maintaining a poetic involvement with environmental and social causes and issues. Like Ron, I think most of what Bly has written for a long time is just dreck, but there are things I admire about his presence in the community, and I admire the activism and commitment of people I might characterize as his followers, particularly Thomas R. Smith and Paul Ferroes, although I have difficulty reading/hearing their poetry, too. And, while I'm not at all certain where Bly stands on what I might call more innovative lang & post-lang poetries, I have found that some of the strongest of his followers are a lot more willing to listen to arguments for such work than are the local academic poets. charles ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:29:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Situation #11 Situation #11 is now available, featuring the work of Cydney Chadwick, Rodrigo Toscano, Elizabeth Fodaski, Jeff Vetock, Jonathan Brannen, Cheryl Burket, Buck Downs, Abby C., and John Havelda. Subscriptions are only $10 for four issues, or $3 for a single issue. Please contact me via e-mail (mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu) or at: Situation 10402 Ewell Ave. Kensington, MD 20895 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 11:06:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: CORE.DUMP Comments: To: E-POETRY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu In-Reply-To: <199601111854.KAA07580@mail6> CORE.DUMP ----.---- ----.---- ----.---- ----.---- CORE.DUMP evolutio:Core.Dump:no point-of-view A massive collection of compact, entitled and engaging imagery. Long poetic lists. Various small square images are identified by their 5,457 titles, a short sample is listed below. The imagery depicts embedded cultural (sexual-facial) expressions and is printed using a fine uniform halftone beneath an error-diffusion bitmap. Each image and title is individually laser-printed on very light-weight, letter-size, imported (Chinese straw and hemp) archival papers. These elegant prints are very inexpensively available from the artist ; please specify which titles you'd prefer. Eventually these images and captions will also be incorporated into a web-based, random-sequence, slide-show. The entire list of titles can be viewed at , or requested via e-mail. -- Short Sample of CORE.DUMP List: 3671. Radiant-Light 3672. Radiant-Water 3673. Radical-Distinction 3674. Radical-Reforms 3675. Radio-Voice 3676. Ragged-Staring-Wretch 3677. Raging-Sea 3678. Raging-Tumult 3679. Rain-Falls 3680. Rallied-Round 3681. Random-Inquiries 3682. Random-Way 3683. Rang-Hollow 3684. Ranging-Alongside 3685. Rapid-Returns 3686. Rare-Explicit-Clarity 3687. Rare-Gas-Molecules 3688. Rather-Distrustful 3689. Rather-Good-Sort 3690. Rather-Guess 3691. Rather-Reckless 3692. Rather-Romantic 3693. Rather-Than-Wander-Further-About 3694. Rational-Reform 3695. Rational-Tradition 3696. Reaching-Back 3697. Readily-Discernible 3698. Ready-Directly 3699. Ready-Formed 3700. Ready-Rods 3701. Real-Fast 3702. Real-Friend 3703. Real-Knowledge 3704. Real-Repute 3705. Real-Return 3706. Real-Well 3707. Really-Wretched 3708. Reason-Speculates 3709. Reasonable-Surmises 3710. Reasons-Set-Forth 3711. Recalling-Some-Pleasant-Encounter 3712. Received-Wisdom 3713. Recent-Terror 3714. Recently-Reduced 3715. Reciprocal-Intimacy 3716. Recklessly-Arranged 3717. Reckoned-Something 3718. Reconciled-These-Things 3719. Record-Rise 3720. Recorded-Signals-Speaking 3721. Recorded-Smugglers 3722. Red-Letter-Day 3723. Red-Men 3724. Red-Roses 3725. Red-Silken-Wrapper 3726. Reddening-Over 3727. Redeem-Time 3728. Redundant-Days 3729. Reeling-Attempt 3730. Reeling-Scene 3731. Reflect-Nothing 3732. Reflected-Moonshine 3733. Reflecting-Rails 3734. Reflections-Just-Here 3735. Refreshing-Juice 3736. Refuse-Resurrections 3737. Refuse-Rocks 3738. Regal-Process 3739. Registering-Resolution 3740. Regretted-Recognition 3741. Regular-Features 3742. Regular-Intervals 3743. Regular-Meals 3744. Regular-Rhythm 3745. Regular-Seasons 3746. Regular-System 3747. Regular-Tinkle 3748. Regular-Turns 3749. Relatively-Established-Demand 3750. Relaxed-Tone 3751. Reliable-Particle-Count 3752. Reliable-Regular 3753. Religious-Obligations 3754. Reluctant-Particles 3755. Remained-Kneeling 3756. Remaining-Days 3757. Remaining-Rooted 3758. Remains-Intact 3759. Remains-Unsaid 3760. Remarkable-In-Themselves 3761. Remorseless-Service 3762. Remote-Harbors 3763. Remoter-Southern-Seas 3764. Remotest-Degree 3765. Remotest-Nooks 3766. Remotest-Water 3767. Remotest-Waters 3768. Renounce-Existence 3769. Repenting-Prophet 3770. Replace-Strategy-with-Technology 3771. Replaced-Beliefs-with-Systems 3772. Residual-Space 3773. Resolved-to-Satisfy 3774. Resounding-Crash 3775. Respective-Duties 3776. Restless-Glance 3777. Restless-Heart 3778. Restless-Needle 3779. Restrain-the-Gush 3780. Restrained-Passion 3781. Restricted-Motion 3782. Result-Rendering 3783. Retreat-Recedes 3784. Retreating-Slope-from-above-the-Brows 3785. Reveal-Harmonious-Orders 3786. Revelations-and-Allusions 3787. Reverential-Dexterity 3788. Revolved-Over 3789. Revolving-Images 3790. Rhythmic-Ratios 3791. Ribbed-and-Dented 3792. Ride-Rocking 3793. Rifled-Hearts 3794. Right-Along 3795. Right-Off 3796. Righteous-Souls 3797. Righteousness-Endureth-Forever 3798. Ring-Bolt 3799. Ringed-Horizon 3800. Rise-Rather 3801. Rise-and-Depart 3802. Rising-Chill-Embraced 3803. Rising-Steam 3804. Rising-to-the-Surface 3805. Roar-of-Breakers 3806. Roared-Forth 3807. Roaring-Streams 3808. Roasted-River-Horse 3809. Rocky-Shores 3810. Roll-Round 3811. Rolled-Away 3812. Rolled-Over 3813. Rolling-Hills 3814. Roman`s-Ruins-Run-Right 3815. Room-Papered 3816. Room-Roll 3817. Rose-Water-Snow 3818. Rotted-Remains 3819. Roughly-Rectangular 3820. Round-Globe-Over 3821. Round-Resembles 3822. Rows-to-Peer 3823. Royal-Rights 3824. Royal-Standard 3825. Royal-Stuff 3826. Rude-Attempt 3827. Rumpled-Reproduction 3828. Running-Great-Risk 3829. Running-Up-After-Me 3830. Running-Wild 3831. Runs-Roaring 3832. Ruptured-Hymen 3833. Rush-Repeat 3834. Rushing-Waters 3835. Sacred-Grove 3836. Sacred-Vesture 3837. Sacrificial-Blaze 3838. Sacrificial-Fire 3839. Sadly-Eroded-Stones 3840. Sadly-Fear 3841. Sadly-Need-Mending 3842. Sadly-Vitiated 3843. Sadly-Abridged 3844. Safe-Distance 3845. Safe-Keeping 3846. Sagging-String 3847. Said-Nothing 3848. Sail-Forbidden-Seas 3849. Salad-Fork 3850. Sallied-Out 3851. Salt-Sea 3852. Salted-Pork 3853. Salty-Aftertaste 3854. Same-Ancient 3855. Same-Dull-Voice 3856. Same-Extent 3857. Same-Fate .... -eof- -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project: ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace photo-art: ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr / a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg -> Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:32:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george hartley Subject: border patrol why so hard and fast with these distinctions? poetics talk/nonpoetics talk academic/experimental, avant-garde, . . . real language poets/wanna-bees ? aren't the boundaries a little more fluid? Isn't that part of what's up here? And lest I be seen as promoting some kind of trickle-down poetics (re: educational technologies, etc.), let me say that the presuppositons of my initial posting (Spivak's capuccino) must have been more opaque than I had imagined, so: I presupposed that the "elitism" question had already been settled (for many of the reasons that have since been posted) and was wondering if the drift of the discussion on the econopolitics of the Web Presses discussion might also be getting caught up in similar deadends? Like all technologies and practices, I believe, we are all implicated in a host of relations which might be "against our own interests," sedimented with various surplus-values, and such, but still carry potential for a variety of uses. Looking both ways at once, I guess. Which means, how do we make sense of and use of this in-between (as I suggest above regarding the various policings of boundaries)? But maybe the homology carries a lot more than I had hoped for. George ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: reet elite ron: thanks for the info-response. i myself have taught paul fussell, british world war I poetry both flowery and blunt, etc., to barely literate "moderate special needs" high school students, and they had no trouble grasping the finer points, as potential cannon fodder themselves. your point about no such things as ahistorical masses resonates with a book i've just been reading and had to put down before mla, jacques ranciere's The Names of History, in which he criticizes NeoMarxist historians (braudel, ep thompson etc) for dehumanizing the masses they claim to write on behalf of. their scientistic ambitions for historiography, he claims, have made ciphers of historical (albeit perhaps anonymous) agents.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:35:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: reet elite Mike, doesn't elitism usually mean "I don't like that, or understand that & don't want to deal with it & have this terrible desire to devalue it"??? & along the lines of Maria's & Ron's recent posts, Henry Threadgill once told me years ago that in the early days of the AACM, some of their best audiences weren't from the established ranks of jazz lovers, but people who wandered into concerts off the streets with no preconditioned notion of what should be played/heard... Charles Smith "Would someone please explain what "elitism" means? Was John Coltrane elitist? Ornette Coleman? Who had the larger audience, Ezra Pound or Sun Ra? Did either one give a damn?" Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 23:27:33 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Sappho on the Web >have you stumbled on a sappho link? Yes, Bill, I found several. The one that I linked into my article is: http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/biblio/sappho.html, but there were others. This one, entitled "Diotima's Bibliography", contains quite a few scholarly links, but I didn't find any links to poems (there may be some of Sappho's poems in some of the Classical archives scattered about the net). When I did a Web search on "Sappho", most of the hits were on archives from various Lesbian mailing lists with "Sappho" in the title, but there were a number of links relating to the poet herself. Cheers, Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 22:19:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: rhythm On Jan 8, Ward Tietz wrote: >This is a stirring argument [Amittai by Bell on rhythm], one that quite openly ventures to restore a transcendent quality to poetry. To be possible , at least on my reading of this excerpt, this seems to depend on a change of emphasis, form "representation" to "enactment," on the level of production and reception. This I find a very timely and provocative idea, since it gets to the very base of mediation. Enactment probably should begin to replace representation in certain contexts, but how can this be implemented? < I agree wholeheartedly here. I think this is probably what Amittai intended as his focus is on the body. I did have an article on this issue in _The Journal of Poetry Therapy_ several years ago. But you go on to say: > This is in part a semiotic argument. As far as I can tell from this excerpt Amittai is arguing for rhythm, because he believes it can evade, and therefore by extension, transcend signification. This is probably not true. Ray Birdwhistell's work in kinesics ("Kinesics and Context," U of Pennsylvania P, 1970) proved that at least for some bodily movements there are isolatable "kinemes," signifying units of movement and motion. In his experiments he was able to isolate some twenty-odd kinemes of the face and head. A more thorough investigation of rhythm would probably find it no less mysterious< I don't follow the relevance of lack of mystery. If I recall correctly Birdwhistle also did similar work on bird's songs and there is a lot of research on components of facial expressions of emotion in humans. Both song and emotional expression are sublime to my way of thinking. And both of these are also enactments of the unconscious, the spiritual, or the body (there is, by the way, an extensive body of theroretical and research literature on kinesthetic psychology - _not_ psychoanalytically based). On another issue you raise above: On my reading, Amittai is saying that rhythm attempts to "evade and...transcend signification" even though that attempt is doomed to failure. Tom Bell Music City (Nashville) BTW, I didn't post the Amittai excepts to become an apologist for them. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:46:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: rhythm, again Considering Tom Bell's recent remarks, let me elaborate a little on my posting of January 8th on rhythm. One of the things I said was, "Discounting the transcendent quality of Amittai's argument, I would tend to agree that more kinesthetic or kinemic approaches to literature would be useful. The distinction between a linguistic (language by itself) and a paralinguistic (meaningful activity coincident with language) analysis should probably not be maintained. The difficulty of this approach is that it demands an almost complete reevaluation of spatial and temporal models...." I offered the Birdwhistell material to illustrate what I think is a common misperception in some discussions of movement and rhythm, namely, that movement is somehow unmediated or uncoded and is expressed and perceived more directly than language. This I understand to be a result of splitting language off from other paralinguistic phenomena (things like rhythm, gesture, intonation etc.) coincident to it. As I mentioned before I think we do this to our detriment. I said "A more thorough investigation of rhythm would find it no less mysterious," because the work of Birdwhistell and others in paralinguistics was in large part able to demystify quite a lot of territory that was previously mysterious. One of the classic examples in Zoosemiotics, the branch of animal semiotics that Thomas Sebeok pioneered, explained how the horse Clever Hans could add and subtract numbers given to him by his trainer. What Sebeok found was that Clever Hans was clever, but not in the way some people had thought; he was responding to various signs given unconsciously by the trainer and since the trainer knew the answer to what was asked Clever Hans was only reading the gestural "answer" code of the trainer that he had been trained to read. Up until that point Clever Hans' mathematical ability was a mystery. We may need to retain transcendence and mystery somewhere for that which we can't explain, but as I said before, I think this mystery as it exists for rhythm and poetry is a result of splitting language off from a much larger and richer expressive sphere in the first place. Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: rhythm, again so then how much of poetry is communicating information and how much (poetry community) of poetry is communicating _affect_ Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: hale hey Jordan, roberto haleo's reading was very good last sun night at biblio's during the storm. four people where there. his pomes are bisons of the future. dug & i then walked over the brooklyn bridge in the middle of dr antonio blizzardo and a guy was x-country scciiing @ midnight. bill... you are at biblio's sunday at 5:00, no? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:42:12 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: reet elite In-Reply-To: <960111102348_87839854@emout06.mail.aol.com> I'll be happy to respond after I recover from my trip yesterday from D.C. to Honolulu by way of circling O'Hare for hours...though I'm not quite sure what you want my response to. My piece, by the way, was in A Poetics of Criticism. Thanks much for asking and hello to everyone I met in Chicago and DC. Much fun. Susan On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Bill Luoma wrote: > I haven't seen the Chain piece, but I wonder if Susan Schultz would comment. > Especially in light of the mag she publishes, Tinfish, which contains some > work that could be spoken about in similar terms as Cesaire's, epecially the > piece by the woman whose name is too long to be conveniently typed out. > > > md wrote: > ..reminds me also of susan schultz's > ..piece in Chain, where she writes > ..that the local Hawai'ian > ..poets had no trouble w/ C Bernstein > ..and enjoyed his visit there tremendously, > ..though the well-meaning lit. faculty of > ..U Hawai'i expressed concern about his > ..inaccessibility to specifically those poets. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:50:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: web sites hpp nw r poetifolk a couple of new & interesting web sites for contemporary lit, Levi Asher's LITERARY KICKS, which could benefit perhaps from a bit of scholarization, but nonetheless found stuff like Kaufman's "I have folded my sorrows" out there y mas http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/litkicks.html Jim Carroll web page just up, http://www.bgsu.edu/~ccarter/carroll.htm Sandbox magazine http://www.echonyc.com/~sandbox/ what URLs are you tuning in to lately? an *incredible* amount of poetry out there . . . -chris f http://www.albany.edu/~cf2785 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:22:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <199601120502.AAA27445@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> This from this week's _Los Angeles Sentinel_ 60 Cops, 150 Students Clash in Leimert Park In a troubling incident last Thursday, police clashed with students who were attending a weekly urban poetry workshop. Over 60 policement in riot gear converged on a crowd of about 150 workshop participants and closed it down. According to several eyewitnesses, when the crowd was slow to disperse and began to verbally protest, the officers reponded by prodding the crowd with batons. Professor Ben Caldwell, who teaches a class called Urban Art and Music at prestigious California Arts Institute said, "The workshop is an extension of my Cal Arts class." _____ How did ch. 2 News headline this story? "Illegal Nightclub Closed by Police" What did we not learn from the television coverage? That it was a poetry workshop; that Prof. Caldwell convened it; That one student was sent to the hospital after a police club opened a gash in her head. What did the television reporters make sure we larned? The young people were black. _______________ Now, I don't know if they drew a bigger crowd than Ezra Pound, but Sun Ra and Amiri Baraka, like the AACM in Chicago, used to perform the most avant garde music and poetry for Harlem audiences in public spaces -- It seems that some kind of elite wants to stop that shit from happening again! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria What was the LAPD's excuse for disrupting the poetry workshop? Their lines didn't scan? -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:28:05 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Akitoshi Nagahata Subject: inquiry Dear poets and critics: My name is Akitoshi Nagahata. I'm teaching English as a second language and American literature at Nagoya University in Nagoya, Japan. I've been a member of this list for about a year, but this is my first post and it's an inquiry. A friend of mine who is translating Paul Auster's interview into Japanese (who also translated John Ashbery's poems) asked me about a poet Mark Irwin, who, according to the friend, published a book called _Against Meanwhile_. It seems he is mentioned in the interview by Auster or the interviewer. I have no idea who he is and so decided to send an inquiry to this list. Any information about him is welcome. Akitoshi Nagahata email: e43479a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp URL: http://ernie.lang.nagoya-u.ac.jp/^nagahata/index2.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:51:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: rhythm, again >so then how much of poetry is communicating information and how much >(poetry community) of poetry is communicating _affect_ > >Jordan I think what Ward Tietz was arguing was specifically not to make this separation, that "affect" is full of "information," and "information" is full of "affect," and that we get in trouble if we separate them so. At least I think that was what he was saying, and I agree. charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:57:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rhythm, again At 01:11 PM 1/12/96 -0500, Jordan wrote: >so then how much of poetry is communicating information and how much >(poetry community) of poetry is communicating _affect_ And just to complicate things a little further, how much affect is really communicated and how much is actually _created_ at the site of the work's reception (reader/audience)? And is the "information" that's communicated left unchanged by its journey to that site? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:09:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria wow almighty, aldon. thanks for the blip. reminds me that i wanted to use, for my book cover, that shot of Bob Kaufman backed into a corner, holding the police at bay with his arms, underneath a poster saying POETRY, but my editor sd it wouldn't copy well. i'll save that msg for my classes. by the way, was it a reading? a critique-workshop? if the former, who was reading?--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:29:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: from "Aldon L. Nielsen" at Jan 12, 96 03:22:15 pm > _______________ > Now, I don't know if they drew a bigger crowd than Ezra Pound, but Sun Ra > and Amiri Baraka, like the AACM in Chicago, used to perform the most > avant garde music and poetry for Harlem audiences in public spaces -- > > It seems that some kind of elite wants to stop that shit from happening > again! > Aldon: I appreciate your point here. But my question was serious. Elite is one of those words that gets deployed so easily, but constantly seems to mean something else. Here you're using it in a context where it's got something to do with access to political power. In the previous usage it seemed to refer to the kinds of audience specific forms of artistic work were addressed to. Which then raises all kinds of troubling questions--for me anyway. I don't think I've ever had a stronger sense of elitism at work than sitting in one of those rooms at the MLA. Which wasn't a problem for me. If someone wants to spend 50 grand learning to write in ways and about issues that interest 15 (or 50) other people on the continent, I say, go for it. Think about Cary Nelson lovingly collecting 90 year old scrap books of dead labour organizers for the aura that lingers about them. Not exactly a populist past time, but it clearly gives him such exquisite pleasures, who's going to tell him to stop because it's elitist? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 10:24:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Goat-Walking In-Reply-To: <960112150027_60189735@emout05.mail.aol.com> under news of the weird category: was out riding my bike last night (ah, the joys of arizona in jan.) and came up behind a horse with two people on it. as i passed the horse and its people i noticed that they had their goat out with them. how nice, i thought. they're out walking their goat. this is phoenix. jeffrey timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 10:33:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <199601131429.JAA00550@epas.utoronto.ca> On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Michael Boughn wrote: > Think about Cary Nelson lovingly collecting 90 year > old scrap books of dead labour organizers for the aura that lingers > about them. Not exactly a populist past time, but it clearly gives him > such exquisite pleasures, who's going to tell him to stop because it's > elitist? is it elitest? jeffrey timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology I hope this isn't a dead thread on this list. I just bought _Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology_. edited by Paul Hoover. I noted with pleasure that some of the present company were included as well as mentioned in the Acknowledgements. Unfortunately, the book is also very disturbing. Why is Ashbery given this place at the lead of language poetry? *Self- portrait* is a fine book, but it's just one of many. He happened to be published by Penguin and that meant exposure. What about *A-22 & 23* by Louis Zukofsky? Why isn't he even in there? What about Grossinger and Charles Stein and the whole North Atlantic thing? What about the Jargon Society? The Montemora people are there and the Sulphur crowd. What about the Canadians and the Brits? Is this to be a separate anthology? I mean Christopher Dewdney and Jed Rasula and Thomas A. Clark and Tom Raworth just to name a few whose work belongs in this book except by geography. What about John Taggart? My lord! This could be one of the most glaring ommissions. The way he plays with sound is so fascinating. Many more of my favorites were not in there, like Don Byrd, Nathaniel Tarn, Theodore Enslin, James Sherry ... I've barely begun. I think it was too soon for this. I'm glad many new people will be exposed to the people who *are* in there. (Many of you are here, Rae, Ron, Charles, etc.) But when it comes time to do a proper anthology, I nominate Clayton Eshelman to edit it. Pete Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 13:43:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology Dear Pete Landers, From your post it appears that the only people of importance that Paul Hoover left out of his anthology were men. Isn't that amazing! Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:45:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria i don't think one can constructively interrogate the term "elitist" w/o a corresponding interrogation of context and relationship... and i do mean to say *interrogate*... "elitist" generally suggests a power differential, yes?... there's a certain irony in suggesting that nelson's 'working class' orientation is elitist (you meant it this way, right mike?)... if elitist is taken to mean something like promoting a powerful minority (as in majority-minority) position *to the exclusion of other positions* i'd say there are problems with it... that is, elitists are presumably those with power, vis-a-vis the folks who designate the opposition as such... as a pejorative the word suggests a small group in a hierarchical relation with a larger group as a result of insidious practices... whereas the capacity for advocating that a given minority view may be superior to other such views is a desirable feature of public discourse... but generally elitism is, uh, deployed by those who decry it as an accusation, to denote a certain arrogance, not to say inequitable power relation... i mean, just because a group or person is eccentric, or because a group or person occupies a minority position as such, is rarely occasion for such an accusation... i hasten to add that power is a function of context, which is why elitist as a tag is so, well, fraught... i mean, i once heard a lit. theorist argue to the effect that there's nothing wrong with being elitist, because in fact all this means is that lit. theory is arcane... and more populist abuses of the term are probably easy to demonstrate... still, arcana and elitism are not the same words, and don't as i see it turn on the same public axes... for me the question is whether elitism is a useful term these days, given what we know of the political climate of reception... in aesthetic terms, and in the midst of a conservative backlash of sorts, one might expect to be accused of elitism becasuse one is "inaccessible"... on the other hand, belief in a "power elite" (i'm not talking typewriters) is a frequent construction of certain left political discourse per se... i think we have in this country a system which promotes an establishment power elite... and i think that a certain level of aesthetic inaccessibility is desirable... hence i guess i am and i am not an elitist, depending on who you are... but i don't aspire to elitist status, uh-uh... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 05:09:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology Kevin Killian wrote: >Dear Pete Landers, > >From your post it appears that the only people of importance that Paul >Hoover left out of his anthology were men. Isn't that amazing! > >Dodie Bellamy Neidecker. Like I said, I could go on. I mentioned my own favorites mostly and I'm sorry but the women I like _are_ in there. landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 05:44:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology Peter, Doing an anthology is simply an impossible task. I speak from experience. Whenever I read one, such as Jerry & Pierre's of late, I spend so much of my time thinking about the texts they should have included, the way I would have organized it better, etc., etc., etc. In some sense, that may be one of the real pleasures of READING an anthology, but it is an EXCRUCIATING aspect of editing one. The Hoover anthology (which Golding in his essay on anthologies in From Outlaw to Classic -- a brilliant book everyone should read --, notes is the only Norton to use the indefinite article "A Norton Anthology") certainly has its weaknesses and blind spots, even for the poets it includes. Getting the title of Zukofsky's long poem wrong is sort of typical. Including 28 NY School poets but not Ted Greenwald is another. I could go on (and your suggestions are all good ones). But I have no doubts about Paul's intentions and good will that went into the project. What about the case of someone like Ted Pearson, whom I left out of In the American Tree from a sense that (like Scalapino or Dahlen, say) I felt his work was more a conscious critical take on the scene than implicated within it. He's not in the Ganick/Barone, nor either the Hoover or Messerli, nor even the New Coast. Yet he's clearly one of the significant poets of his (my) generation. Just as the Paris Leary/Robert Kelly anthology, A Controversy of Poets, first exposed me many moons ago to the likes of Rochelle Owens, Jackson Mac Low, Gerrit Lansing and Kelly himself (none of whom were in the Allen), the Hoover will no doubt have an eye-opening impact for some folks. And that's what it's all about, no? All best, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria to joe's longish post, which i won't reproduce: i've heard some folks draw a distinction between power and privilege...they can cohabit a situation or coincide but one can have privilege w/out power (like us academics, i'd say)... "elitism" seems closer to privilege --sheltered, eccentric...but not powerful in a corporate thuggish way necessarily...though one can of course talk about a corporate elite or a power elite... it was a useful distinction for me, cuz i often recognize that i'm privileged, but rarely feel powerful in the sense of "power over". --md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:22:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "kathryne l." Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:29:59 -0500 from Sorry to be a bother, but I have lost some files and addresses. Could someone--hope it won't be aflood of unwanted notes--send D. Messerli's email address? Also, are you there Charles B.? Want to ask you more about old British publishers of Black US stuff--back channel? As long as I have wasted enough of your collective time, how about a fax # for Burt Hatlen? Thanks, this is a sunny Sunday in Detroit, one that makes one think about premature spring cleaning of a desk that is otherwise an archeological dig. I need a steam shovel, that great modernist textual tool. Thanks. By the way, elitism is not an accident of censorship or poor distribution: that few might have read certain of Langston Hughes' revolutionary poems, for instance, doesn't mean that he was being an elitist. Elitism is an ethos and an affiliation, not a matter of failure to get or stimulate literal or literary "action." This does not address questions of whether one is doing effective political work (in this day and age???) by recalling texts that speak to positive (in this day and age???) social change. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 12:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: from "kathryne l." at Jan 14, 96 11:22:25 am > Elitism is > an ethos and an affiliation, not a matter of failure to get or stimulate > literal or literary "action." This does not address questions of whether > one is doing effective political work (in this day and age???) by recalling > texts that speak to positive (in this day and age???) social change. Kathryn L., please say more. What ethos? What affiliation? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 12:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <960114110634_41330280@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Maria Damon" at Jan 14, 96 11:06:35 am > i've heard some folks draw a distinction between power and privilege...they > can cohabit a situation or coincide but one can have privilege w/out power > (like us academics, i'd say)... "elitism" seems closer to privilege > --sheltered, eccentric...but not powerful in a corporate thuggish way > necessarily...though one can of course talk about a corporate elite or a > power elite... it was a useful distinction for me, cuz i often recognize that > i'm privileged, but rarely feel powerful in the sense of "power over". --md The problem I have here, Maria, is you seem to assume a dynamics of power based on it all being one place, and not elsewhere, which ignores everything Foucault taught us about the circulation of power through social orders. You may not feel you have power over others, but perhaps you're in denial, as they say. What about in the class room? What about within various professional organizations? Personal relationships? You may use your power responsibly, but that doesn't mean you don't have it. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria this msg got lost before; i'm trying again: wow almighty, aldon. thanks for the blip. reminds me that i wanted to use, for my book cover, that shot of Bob Kaufman backed into a corner, holding the police at bay with his arms, underneath a poster saying POETRY, but my editor sd it wouldn't copy well. i'll save that msg for my classes. by the way, was it a reading? a critique-workshop? if the former, who was reading?--md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: rhythm, again In-Reply-To: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Jordan Davis wrote: > so then how much of poetry is communicating information and how much > (poetry community) of poetry is communicating _affect_ Time for a blurb. The information/rhythm problematic is well explored in a book I've recently read and would recommend: TELLING RHYTHM: BODY AND MEANING IN POETRY, by Amittai Aviram (U of Michigan P, 1994). It has some weaknesses: For example, in the few comments it makes about language poetry, I think it drastically misunderstands the work. But as a recovery of a somatic understanding of poetry descending from Nietzsche, I think it does a remarkably clear and interesting job. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <960114110634_41330280@emout05.mail.aol.com> On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Maria Damon wrote: > i've heard some folks draw a distinction between power and privilege...they > can cohabit a situation or coincide but one can have privilege w/out power > (like us academics, i'd say)... "elitism" seems closer to privilege > --sheltered, eccentric...but not powerful in a corporate thuggish way > necessarily...though one can of course talk about a corporate elite or a > power elite... it was a useful distinction for me, cuz i often recognize that > i'm privileged, but rarely feel powerful in the sense of "power over". --md Along these lines, I like Pierre Bourdieu's formulation of the "class fraction," in particular his characterization of the cultural/artistic community as "the dominated fraction of the dominant class." Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria michael boughn: the emphasis in my post was not on my feelings as reality or not, but on a distinction i'd found helpful, between power and/or privilege. that my feeling powerful or not may not correspond to my "actual" position (whatever that may be) is axiomatic. do you find the distinction between privilege and power useful? maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:33:27 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: elitism I've noticed that for accusations of elitism to be levelled against a poet, there are two prerequisites: 1) that the poetry is seen to be inaccessible; and 2) that the poet is seen to have easy or subsidised access to the means of publication. So, 'obscure' or 'experimental' poets are not seen as 'elitist' by these accusers if they self-publish via photocopier and are rarely given pride of place in mainstream literary mags: they are merely harmless eccentrics. But if the same writer receives grants of public money, is published by university presses and dominates the journals, then he or she is deemed 'elitist'. It is interesting to note that the accusers usually fulfill neither of the above criteria: they write accessible poetry that no-one wants to publish. Tom Beard. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 07:56:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <960114211135_116575816@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Maria Damon" at Jan 14, 96 09:11:35 pm > michael boughn: > the emphasis in my post was not on my feelings as reality or not, but on a > distinction i'd found helpful, between power and/or privilege. that my > feeling powerful or not may not correspond to my "actual" position (whatever > that may be) is axiomatic. do you find the distinction between privilege and > power useful? > maria d Maria: Well, I don't know. It seems to rely on the same dynamic in that it defines power as something other than what we (each of us, even those without privilege) experience in our lives (from both sides) by making it solely the provenance of "them". Admittedly, "they" may have more of it on a more regular basis, but who's so innocent as not to know its taste? (I've now forgotten how this relates to writing and elitism. O well.) Mike mboughn@epas.uotornot.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: looking for David G... again sorry to intrude, but if David Golumbia is out there, would you please contact me backchannel? i've gotten returned messages, both email and smail... lbd au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:19:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:11:35 -0500 from This may or may not be of interest re "privilege." It's from a manuscript essay a friend, Charles Spinosa, put me onto some time ago. The author is Naomi Scheman, a Stanley Cavell student I think: Privilege and marginality are central concepts in recent feminist and other liberatory theorizing, in which they are generally taken to be opposed to each other: privilege resides at the center of whatever system is being analyzed, and marginality is the condition of being removed from that center, having an identity peripheral to the structures of privilege, being "different." But there are certain social locations that are at once privileged and marginal, complex amalgams that are of particular relevance for an understanding of the nature of philosophy and of theorizing. In particular, in societies such as ours, the position of the academic, and of the philosopher within the academy, are positions of privileged marginality.... The privilege and the marginality are not just two features of this social location; they are inextricably bound together. . . . Privileged marginality is a location from which the felt need for the generic standpoint is peculiarly both poignant and problematic, a combination present throughout Wittgenstein's writings and enacted especially in the interchanges with the interlocuter in the _Investigations_ and other later work. . . . It is, however, only the explicit politicizing of that location, along with the explicit politicizing of epistemology generally, that can take us beyond the diagnosis of the pull toward the generic--the pull, that is, away from diversity--to a clearer sense of how more responsibly to live in the forms of life we--variously--inhabit. Such a perspective provides a gloss on Wittgenstein's remark that "Not empiricism and yet realism in philosophy, that is the hardest thing." (RFM, VI, 23) Empiricism is an epistemology of parsimony: the problem for knowledge is taken to be the problem of partiality in the sense of bias: what we need is to strip away the influence of everything that might lead to doxastic idiosyncrasy. The hallmark of reality, however, is that it looks different to those differntly placed in it; consequently realism requires an epistemology of largesse: the problem for knowledge isthe problem of partiality not in the sense of bias but in the sense of incompleteness. Hope that gives all of you pondering elites, power and privilege something to chew on. Seems pretty straightforward, my big cuts and all. But I'm no philosopher. --keith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria re: naomi scheman and wittgenstein: that was helpful, keith, thanks. naomi is a colleague at UMN; i have often admired her jewelry but never read a word she's written. what she sez is true not only of academics but also, it seems to me, of (some) Jewish people, (some) class-privileged women and (some) gay men. for those of us, like wittgenstein or naomi or me, who inhabit an overlap of these denominations, the sense of being special/ different/ silenced/ privileged can get us all tied up in knots but it's a special vantage point that i at least find rather delicious. --maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <960115141114_42495999@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Maria Damon" at Jan 15, 96 02:11:14 pm Naomi Scheman's essays (many of them at any rate) are collected in her ENGENDERINGS: CONSTRUCTIONS OF KNOWLEDGE, PRIVILEGE AND AUTHORITY (I may not have got this perfectly right), out in the Thinking Gender series from Routledge c.93/94. I believe the quoted passage is included there. Naomi has been attracting some attention lately as an important "Full Professor"-generation feminist theorist (of which there are all too few), and having worked with her essays (and her personally, to a lesser extent) in the past, she strikes me as one of the most important voices in philosophy today. Regarding Wittgenstein, I believe a volume edited by Naomi Scheman is forthcoming in the Penn State UP series, to be called FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF WITTGENSTEIN. At this point I suspect its pub. date is more likely 1997 than 1996. I have high expectations for it. -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:58:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: <960115141114_42495999@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Maria Damon" at Jan 15, 96 02:11:14 pm > re: naomi scheman and wittgenstein: > that was helpful, keith, thanks. naomi is a colleague at UMN; i have often > admired her jewelry but never read a word she's written. what she sez is > true not only of academics but also, it seems to me, of (some) Jewish people, > (some) class-privileged women and (some) gay men. for those of us, like > wittgenstein or naomi or me, who inhabit an overlap of these denominations, > the sense of being special/ different/ silenced/ privileged can get us all > tied up in knots but it's a special vantage point that i at least find > rather delicious. --maria d > Well, I was thinking of when I worked in a metal stamping plant near Aldon in Santa Clara. On the production floor it was mostly me and a dozen chicano guys running 10 high speed punch presses. (Talk about "silenced". My ears are still ringing 15 years later). I don't quite see how "marginal" decribes their position (or mine then). Marginal to what? Maybe we weren't marginal. Maybe we were. Interestingly, although we all were aligned in varying degrees against the power of the front office, the power relations between those guys (they basically came from three families) and within their families were every bit as intense and structured as those between us and management. Negotiating that was a trip. They did read my poems from time to time, and though they didn't "understand" them (I think they were elitist poems), they thought it was wild somebody would write stuff like that. I don't think, however, at that point I'd yet crafted a poem as astonishing and smooth-running as Carlos' '52 Chev lowrider. Ever since, I've been trying to figure out how to get hydraulics into a poem. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:22:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria been chewing over this power/privilege couple that maria intro'd, with subsequent glosses by mike, keith, tom, david, et. al... i think the distinction has proved itself useful by calling attention to a hybrid subject position that some of us evidently feel we sometimes-often occupy (me too)... i mean, such a position is, as maria puts it, "delicious" to the extent that one *can* understand this conjunction as operating at certain thresholds... of habit taste motivation etc... herewith a bit of speculation: what i'm having trouble with is the way i tend ordinarily to think and speak of privilege... i mean, privileges are earned from one pov and accorded from another... and as a well-heeled anguish prof., perhaps i'd be remiss not to point to the word's etymology (from latin, approx. 'belonging to the individual,' 'solitary,' as opposed to 'belonging to the collective,' or state) and ask whether in fact it's a privilege to be so privileged as to be working with etymologies in the first place?... i mean, how did i come to *know* things this way, why am i entitled so, so entitled?... to argue that, for politics (and as i (sorta) understand scheman), the problem of knowledge should be less its partiality than its impartial incompleteness---realism as preferable to radical empiricism, i guess---is to say, really, that politics should be predicated on knowing how to make space for other ways of knowing (largesse) and not merely a matter of cogitating over the limitations of each way... but this is to formulate things in terms of *knowledge*... that is, politics in this formulation seems to me to be subordinated to epistemology... but speaking more as a poet (and isn't this hat-game convenient?), what often concerns me is less the inadequacy of a given epistemology than the inadequacy of epistemology, period... i don't mean to say that epistemology isn't pertinent, but i do mean to say that it isn't always the best account of what i'm doing, the best category for theorizing my activity... it seems to me that it's precisely when i stop obsessing over how i know what i know---which obsession represents an elision of the corresponding *entitlement* (to know etc.)---that privilege becomes a matter of understanding what i've been given, literally, to understand... it's here that my material means, i mean, become legible---less as 'forms of life' (i really don't want to go there) or objectified objects of an inquiring, un-knowing mind, more as independently existing entities... people too---what's often important is not how i "know" them, necessarily, not even the "know-how" it takes to treat others with due respect for their knowledges... what's often important is understanding what it is we each *feel* entitled to, and why, how we developed that sense of entitlement or privilege independently of knowledge as such---as a function of social experience, or anthropological habit, or emotional trauma... one can reduce all of this to 'ways of knowing' or some such, but for me this does in fact constitute a reduction... to whatever extent i may be empowered, if what i feel privileged/entitled to know (etc.) is always a matter of relation (with others), how i come to understand, or mebbe respond to, what i feel i deserve or don't is not always or only about the incompleteness of this-my knowledge, it's often got as much to do with the completeness of that which i don't know... that is, i am at once apprehensive and intact in my lack of knowledge... i hope my residual murkiness is not too murky... but i just don't always *know* what i'm about, even though i do feel entitled to a good reuben sandwich every now and again... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 19:55:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria re centrality v/ marginality: often those referred to as marginal are in fact foundational, central to the operations of the state. capitalism couldn't function w/out a steady margin of unemployed lumpen, etc. you catch my drift.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:50:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:22:34 -0600 from I like very much joe's "murky" mini-essay, but I see too that in excerpting the scheman essay ("Forms of Life: Mapping the Rough Ground") for use in the exchanges on power/privilege I have left it vulnerable to mis-reading. What she is precisely NOT about is "subordinating politics to epistemology." She is trying to get Wittgenstein out from under a reading by one J. C. Nyiri. Two more excerpts: One important thing Wittgenstein can seem to be denying us is, precisely, ground to stand on, if among our concerns is the possibility of casting a critical eye on the world we inhabit. When he writes that "what has to be accepted, the given is--so one could say--_forms of life_"(PI p226), what--so one could ask--is the force of this "has to"? If, as Wittgenstein wants to lead us to see, it is only against a background of shared practices and shared judgments that doubt can be intelligible, (how) can we register, let alone argue for, disapprobation of a form of life, whether it be one in which we are enmeshed (making our attempted critique self-refuting) or one to which we are alien (making our critique, referentially, off the mark)? It has been argued, most pointedly by J. C. Nyiri, that Wittgenstein provides a way of responding to these puzzles, not by providing such critical ground, but by persuading us to do without it. On this reading Witgenstein is at once theoretically pluralist and practically conservative. Against Nyiri (and on behalf of W) Scheman introduces her discussion of diasporic identity--really the subject of her essay. I don't want to get into that as it's late and i'm already too far astray from the ongoing question, but perhaps one more excerpt will do more justice to scheman's position: But there's no no need to take Wittgenstein in this way [as nyiri and others take him]--it could just as well be that what stops, what is given peace, is, specifically, philosophizing, not because quiet takes its place, but because what has seemed a philosophical problem becomes something else. [That is, a political problem.] And so on and so on. Probably scheman would have no problem with joe's "ordinary" use of "privilege" (and the reubens at Morry's on 55th--they're still mediocre, joe?) I introduced the earlier quote to break up the power- privilege monad. And, as long as we're mucking about in philosophy, and pondering poetry and "elites," there's this from Cavell in an interview: But what's an American writer? An American writer is somebody who either can make a living at writing--an important fact--or who is a poet. For poets, a community exists. They write for one another and they know it. [He's envious?] Is it disturbing that "community" is here in the singular? Should it be? Would it still make sense to speak of "elites" if cavell is right, or if it were somehow worthwhile making him right by speaking of a need to forge community within a real acknowledgement of (scheman's) incompleteness and already existing multiple practices and povs? Just asking. . . . Anyway, hope this clarifies the scheman essay a little. --keith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:16:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: poetry, publishers & promotion It is my understanding that Angus & Robertson (A&R where a major publisher of Australian poetry and literature for many years but have been taken over by Harper Collins) are getting poets to sign a contract which includes a clause in which A&R states that it intends to undertake no publicity or promotion of the completed poetry title. This seems to me to be a little self defeating and contradictory. A&R's argument may well be that poetry publishing has a very limited audience and that the only people who buy the book will probably know the author anyway and that advertising will not result in any significant increased sales. On the other hand by not advertising or promoting the book they are probably loosing what small readership they already have. (I understand that A&R's lack of promotion extends to not organising launches - and from my experience launching a poetry book is probably the best way to sell lots of copies fast!). I was wondering if any one else knows of any other publishers who adopt a similiar attitude to their poets. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:57:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: A reading (fwd) Here's an upcoming reading in SF: Etel Adnan/Kathleen Fraser Thursday evening, January 18th, 7 p.m. at Barnes & Noble Booksellers (upstairs) 2550 Taylor, at Bay, San Francisco, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:45:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Jan 1996 to 14 Jan 1996 Ron Silliman wrote: >Doing an anthology is simply an impossible task. I speak from >experience. [snips you all probably read already] >Just as the Paris Leary/Robert Kelly anthology, A Controversy of Poets, >first exposed me many moons ago to the likes of Rochelle Owens, Jackson >Mac Low, Gerrit Lansing and Kelly himself (none of whom were in the >Allen), the Hoover will no doubt have an eye-opening impact for some >folks. And that's what it's all about, no? > Yes, I think that many of my favorite writers are better off *with* that anthology than without it. Many new readers will find the kinship that I found when I went to a lecture by Don Byrd on Louis Zukofsky some years ago. There is more good than bad, in my mind, about the whole thing. I hope it didn't sound like I thought there was any malice in the editor. However, the heat of the kitchen is also necessary. There will be revisions. And I'll repeat Taggart's name over and over if it will help get him in. And I have to question the national boundary. Those boundaries don't really pertain to poetry after the 70's. If I put an anthology together (I don't really know enough to do so), I expect some people would have similar reactions. For instance, I would have left out the Beats. I think a lot of people would take exception to that. BTW, long live Kelly! I'm reading *a STRANGE market* this week. Peter Landers landers@vivanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Landers Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria >do you find the distinction between privilege and >power useful? >maria d no ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Susan Schultz, Charles Bernstein, and Hawaii Ron Silliman mentions Susan Schultz' excellent piece on the reception that Charles Bernstein received in Hawaii. Charles seems to have gotten along quite well in some ways with the local poets there, who understood how his concept of the ideolect related to their interest in the dialect. The resistance to Bernstein was all from the English department, who (of course) had no interest in local writers but were determined to tell Bernstein that he was "elitist" and couldn't possibly have anything to do with local poets, thus proving what being "local" means in an administrative frame-- a determination to keep "outside agitators" (as southern sheriffs used to say in the sixties) from giving any ideas to the people we oppress. Susan's piece explains this much more thoroughly than I can. One note, though--the essay appeared in A Poetics of Criticism, a collection of essays, which is completely different than the excellent mixed-genre magazine Chain. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:08:01 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:03:51 -0500 from With all the talk about privilege under this subject heading, it may seem hard to imagine that the original post had to do with the Los Angeles Police Department taking an overactive interest in a poetry gathering, and how the local media sensationalized the story. I'm always up for a little irony... Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:14:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Subject line that will disappoint Maria This is a little bit at tangents with the recent discussion, especially since Gale Nelson reminded us of what started it all, but one of the things I've found interesting about the postings on elitism / epistemology etc. has been the patterning of descriptors that have been used in the discussion. The pattern by itself seems to me to suggest a somewhat different problem. I wonder if concerns about epistemology and the conflicting or multiple aspects of privilege and marginality shouldn't perhaps be directed at the apparatus of description, since it seems to me the problem is more a matter of how an epistemology or idea occurs or renders itself usable than of any inherent limitation of the epistemology or idea itself. This is, of course, an almost untestable idea; description can't be avoided or overhauled completely, but I wonder if it could be developed. I remember a very useful piece by Walter Ong, actually a chapter in "Interfaces of the Word," on how description and knowledge interact, and according to him and others, both unavoidably depend on tropes; description can only frame out an epistemology by way of certain tropes that appeal to a sensory base and their multivalences in language. This is not a very new or unique idea, but his illustration is useful. What he found specifically was that the various sub-tropes of vision: clarity, brilliance, dullness, transparency, opacity, depth, distance, reflection, point of view etc., enforce a very strict regime, almost to the point of defining intellection. A lot of recent writing in philosophy, of course, has been wrestling with this problem, as I think Scheman's is, and has worked against some of these points directly. Deleuze and Guattari also come to mind, but even somewhat more traditional philosophers like Donald Davidson have tried to rework ideas of multiple points of view into descriptions of action. But the problems of description continue, it seems to me, not least because this base of intellection and reflection enforces itself on other structures as well. One of the reasons we often resort to a center / periphery scheme to describe social phenomena, as Scheman describes, is that it renders static that which is dynamic, or so we believe, but description probably sets up these distinctions in the first place. Description seems to demand this transformation since without it the world couldn't conform to the descriptive apparatus we already have. Scheman's argument almost overcomes this; she tries to activate her description, but it still seems obliged to resolve contradicting and multiple "placements" by placing them in a different way. Dynamic things are difficult to describe, but why?; is it only because description has us believe that they are? As Joe Amato said in his posting, "it's often got as much to do with the completeness of that which I don't know." Description will always refuse to speak the language of dynamism and it will always demand a translation. Ironically to "reflect" on such a thing only props it all back up again. But what can we do? Description gives us a richness of meaning and process we believe we need. Giving up description for demonstration is one way out, but we are not very developed in our understanding of what is required. If we could make progress with demonstration maybe doing without a described "position" would become tolerable. Ward Tietz rte. de St. Cergue, 48a CH-1260 Nyon Switzerland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:02:55 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Susan Schultz, Charles Bernstein, and Hawaii In-Reply-To: Mark--thanks for picking up where I stumbled! My only addition to what you've written is to say that the local poets didn't have anything to say about the idiolect/pidgin question that aroused so much hostility from the non-local poets. I think there is a real question here: pidgin is mainly a "lower class" (I hate this term) language, while idiolects do tend to be invented by elites. That is not to say that the comparison isn't wonderfully provocative and in some ways apt. The other question that was raised (with raised voices) had to do with "intelligibility"; should writers clearly communicate (if there is such a thing) or should they refuse to buy into prefab linguistic constructions? Again, a question well worth discussing. The problem was the out of breathness of the argument more than its terms. While I'm here, a couple of reading recommendations: the new Kaya Production anthology of Asian-American literature provides a fine antidote to the Garrett Hongo anthology, to say nothing of the Heath and the Norton (not Hoover) folks. Wonderful experimental writing and good contributions from Hawai'i, including work by Barry Masuda, R. Zamorra (Zack) Linmark, and Lois-Ann Yamanaka, whose new novel from FS&G is just out (I'm upset to see her book of poetry referred to in her bio blurb as "an award winning collection of short stories," for some reason). Linmark also has a new (and experimental) novel out from Kaya Production, which I recommend. Susan On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Mark Wallace wrote: > Ron Silliman mentions Susan Schultz' excellent piece on the reception > that Charles Bernstein received in Hawaii. Charles seems to have gotten > along > quite well in some ways with the local poets there, who understood how > his concept of the ideolect related to their interest in the dialect. The > resistance to Bernstein was all from the English department, who (of > course) had no interest in local writers but were determined to tell > Bernstein that he was "elitist" and couldn't possibly have anything to do > with local poets, thus proving what being "local" means in an administrative > frame-- a determination to keep "outside agitators" (as southern > sheriffs used to say in the sixties) from giving any ideas to the people > we oppress. > > Susan's piece explains this much more thoroughly than I can. One note, > though--the essay appeared in A Poetics of Criticism, a collection of > essays, which is completely different than the excellent mixed-genre > magazine Chain. > > mark wallace > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:40:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua N Schuster Subject: elitism I think there is another way see the charges of elitism as not necessarily reactionary or ignorant or paranoid (tho perhaps the majority of accusations are). That is thru the dichotomy of elitism vs. utilitarianism as a socialist modernist bug. A work or school is elite when it defines itself by whom it excludes as well as valorizing its own ability to remain powerful while self-nominated as marginal. Elitism is an index of access ability, and I think many of the language poets have consistently and strongly addressed their work within the public sphere, incorporating the audience and/as reader into the dialogue. (Watten addresses many of these issues in the Ariel 8 issue: "We question a question in order to fill in its form.") It's the lack of dialogue, or willful neglect of certain audiences. It is best to address all critics whether underinformed (the "average reader" or worker who needs a immediately useful, practical item) or overinformed (say Jameson). Also one must keep up with the "speed" of today's reader who glances only at the morning paper or book per month before business, as well as keep up with the "speed" of other reading habits (reading on a bus is different than reading in a library). Anyways, for the utilitarian poetry perhaps does "sell" something: a difficult and hopefully pleasureable ride thru a sort of self-enriching alienation (not teleologically determined) indicative of a multidirectional will. If elitism purposefully restricts its public by a conscious neglect, then in turn the public will neglect them. In that sense, elitism is always an anachronism. of, joshua ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re Hawaii Susan Schultz: The other question that was raised (with raised voices) had to do with "intelligibility"; should writers clearly communicate (if there is such a thing) or should they refuse to buy into prefab linguistic constructions? Again, a question well worth discussing. So "prefab" = clear communication? I thought "prefab" meant obfuscate neatly. Jordan Or, why not communicate clearly (socially? Charles). What as they (they!) say do you (you!) have to lose (lose!)? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:31:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: PASSAGES 4 / A n n o u n c e m e n t PASS AGES a poetics journal January, 1996 4 What I acknowledge is that this is a time of working things out, and working things out is not a happy term where printers and publishers are concerned with galley proof delays and publishing expenses, pushing toward publishing dates.... Everywhere--and where more than here?--the individual worker must get the work back into his personal responsibility, away from the middle man who conveys what he means. There are artists today who have other workers carry their "ideas" out. What is missing is the tale the hand itself tells in its way of working. F E A T U R E S + Andrew Schelling, NOTES ON FORM AND SAVAGE MIND for Robin Blaser [line 49] + H.D. Moe, CORRECTIONISM [line 657] * passages invites writings on mergings between poetry & technology Editorial Advisors Belle Gironda Benjamin Friedlander Donald J. Byrd special thanks to Loss Pequen~o Glazier for his work on the Passages webpage, http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/ezines/passages & _Small Press: An Annotated Guide_ (Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1992) + the EPC Passages, as a "further trajectory..." is now being distributed via DIU-L. If you would like to subscribe, send a message which says SUBSCRIBE DIU-L to listserv@cnsibm.albany.edu You will be asked to confirm this request; detailed instructions are given Along with your subscription to Passages, you will receive the sporadically alive D(escriptions of an) I(maginary) U(niverse) Editor Chris Funkhouser cf2785@cnsvax.albany.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:27:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Susan Schultz, Charles Bernstein, and Hawaii yes, walter lew's kaya anthology of New North American Asian Poetry is wonderful. good stuff, experimental and non-sentimental. i passed it around at my mla talk, the only useful thing about my talk i think. best, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Susan Schultz, Charles Bernstein, and Hawaii mark wallace writes: Ron Silliman mentions Susan Schultz' excellent piece on the reception that Charles Bernstein received in Hawaii. to which i reply: this is a minor point but it was i and not ron who brought the schultz piece to bear on our discussion of aldon's quoting clr james on what theorists assume about what "the masses" (for whom they wd speak) can and can't understand or find useful in what "we as intellectuals and artists" (quote marks not cuz any of the aforementioned used that phrase, but cuz i'm so mortified to be using the imperialistic we in such a self-aggrandizing cliche) do. while i'm flattered to be mistaken for ron, i also want to be mistaken for myself. bet, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:14:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: btw, i'm not at all disapointed i admire people like ward tietz and joe amato who can sustain linear arguments at some length in this medium. i find i'm reduced to several lines of sharp riposte that stands in for thoughtful analysis/argument --but it may be unfair to blame that on the medium, prob'ly just my own failing capacities... cheers, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Canessa Reading Notice Announcing a reading on Sunday January 21: Kevin Magee and Susan Thackery, 3:00, admission $4.00. The initial flyer went out with a date error saying the 14th, not the 21st. (Gotta get a new proof reader!) Apologies for the confusion! 1996 schedule not complete, but look forward to Leslie Scalapino/Avery Burns and Joseph Torra, Chris Reiner plus others later this spring. Inquiries about the reading series to Colleen Lookingbill or Jordon Zorker at zorlook@aol.com or 1098 Page St. #4, S.F. CA, 95117. See ya all there... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:07:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Canessa Reading Notice PS Forgot to mention tha Avery Burns will be hosting the reading this Sunday - tea will be served... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:15:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: btw, i'm not at all disapointed maria, i wish somebody would mistake me for you, b/c i find yr posts, though not verbose like mine, much more to the point... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erica Hunt Subject: Int'l Workshop in Literature/Perf Arts-- Venice Greetings. By a thread of circumstances too lengthy to recount here, I am helping to organize an international workshop on literature and performance art at a urban architecture institute in Venice. Date: May 1 through June 4, 1996. The faculty at this point include: Charles Bernstein, Fiona Templeton, Tom Raworth, Julie Patton, Lee Anne Brown and myself. This is the first year for such a workshop, and we (Julie, Lee Anne and me) hope to turn into an annual gathering, perhaps connecting it next year to the Biennale. For the first year, however, we need at least 15 workshop participants. The fee is $2,300. This pays for participant lodging in Venice in very nice apartments, and a month long studio intensive in performance with Fiona, as well as week long workshops with above named poets. If you, or someone you know is interested please get in touch by e-mail to my address: Ericalin @ aol.com. I would like to get a read of how many people might consider attending. I 'd be happy to supply more information. Materials regarding the workshop itself are in production. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:50:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Forwarded post This post was received from a poetry discussion list in the US. I thought it might be of interest to AWOL subscribers. Mark Roberts. *********************************************************** From: Erica Hunt Subject: Int'l Workshop in Literature/Perf Arts-- Venice Greetings. By a thread of circumstances too lengthy to recount here, I am helping to organize an international workshop on literature and performance art at a urban architecture institute in Venice. Date: May 1 through June 4, 1996. The faculty at this point include: Charles Bernstein, Fiona Templeton, Tom Raworth, Julie Patton, Lee Anne Brown and myself. This is the first year for such a workshop, and we (Julie, Lee Anne and me) hope to turn into an annual gathering, perhaps connecting it next year to the Biennale. For the first year, however, we need at least 15 workshop participants. The fee is $2,300. This pays for participant lodging in Venice in very nice apartments, and a month long studio intensive in performance with Fiona, as well as week long workshops with above named poets. If you, or someone you know is interested please get in touch by e-mail to my address: Ericalin @ aol.com. I would like to get a read of how many people might consider attending. I 'd be happy to supply more information. Materials regarding the workshop itself are in production. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:30:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: btw, i'm not at all disapointed hey joe: aw shucks md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:15:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: subjected to the line In-Reply-To: <199601160505.AAA02473@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I'm not actually near Santa Clara. It is my privilege to route my messages through a computer near Santa Clara from my position in Los Angeles, where UCLA now permits me to teach but will not let me use their xerox machine. It appears that I have failed to disappoint Maria. On the other hand, I seem to have authored a subject line that now rivals "Renga" for frequency of replication. Martin Glaberman recalls working on the shop floor in Detroit while receiving and debating C. L. R. James's ms. of _Notes on Dialectics_. I have been to Hawaii, and I have read Charles's essay on ideolects, and I used to work a drill press, but I've never seen a baby pidgin. Consider this a line break. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:37:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Subject: Re: domani trope e tropo retardi (fwd) Comments: To: poetics ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:33:15 -0500 From: MDamon9999@aol.com To: mlljorge@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, cris@slang.demon.co.uk Cc: jdavis@panix.com, lsr3h@darwin.clas.virginia.edu, tbjn@well.com, welford@hawaii.edu, semurphy@indirect.com Subject: Re: domani trope e tropo retardi c'est une chose de beaute, il faut la sender out! stop, lichee trope, hope, she commanded though in a moment sighs are fried sunlight yields fissionable coffee in elegant gelatin televised outer dopes frost, yelping at layers seaweed is water dementia overlaid glory is in irreversible blue outrageous February curled the dashboard ripe rocks diamonds are concealed of which I am coriander ephemeral flaying is at four thirty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:17:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken Susan-- While I understand what you're saying about "pidgin," I think I'm going to have to question your statement that "ideolect is invented by elites." Elites in what sense? Educationally maybe, but certainly not financially--so I think it's too easy to use the word "elites". I know quite a few people who use ideolects who work as secretaries, in book stores, in lower level meaningless office jobs, as underpaid part-time community college teachers. The idea that such people are "elites" seems about as clear as the idea that Barry Switzer (uneducated coach of the Dallas Cowboys, author of the autobiography Bootlegger's Son) is part of the underclass because he never went to college. So I think, in this instance, the division between "elites" and the culturally oppressed is much more complicated than you're making clear. Maria: Sorry to have mistaken you for Ron Silliman. With the huge mass of e-mail info, I have to admit that I don't read every post as carefully as I might. Ron's post was the first one I saw that mentioned Susan's essay. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:43:40 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken Comments: To: Mark Wallace In-Reply-To: Mark--I only meant to distinguish between pidgin, which was developed as a language to be used between plantation workers from Japan, China, the Philippines, and elsewhere and their bosses, relatively well-to-do whites, in their business dealings with one another. As a result of this economic hierarchy, pidgin tends to get marked as a "lower class" language opposed to the "high class" standard English still used in business and education. Lots of class resentments get played out in discussion of the new Hawai'i literature in pidgin (of the last 15-20 years, that is), and in that literature. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that the writers of ideolects use them in quite the way pidgin is in Hawai'i--but the use of the word "elite" is perhaps unfair, at least if "elite" is used in a pejorative manner. Perhaps it would be best to talk a bit about what the purposes behind the development of ideolects. What are the points of contact between them and pidgins, whether in Hawai'i, the Caribbean, or anywhere else they're spoken? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: kevin spacey Hey, has anybody else noticed his resemblance to Frank? Is anybody interested in writing a screenplay about O'Hara et al? One scene could act out a "terrestrial cuckoo"? But who would play Jane? And would Kevin do it? Certainly the screenplay shouldn't be based on the GOOCH book...... cs. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:15:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: whole lotta pidgin goin on >Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:43:40 -1000 >From: Susan Schultz >Subject: Re: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken > >Mark--I only meant to distinguish between pidgin, which was developed as >a language to be used between plantation workers from Japan, China, the >Philippines, and elsewhere and their bosses, relatively well-to-do >whites, in their business dealings with one another. When I was visiting my American friend in his Paris sublet in 19 what 78, I happened on an old French one-volume poorman's Britannica--a lil encyclopedia. There was one of those lovely 10-20 page sections, in multi-color plates, with repeated maps of the world carved up in various ways (like Elizabeth Bishop liked): nations of the world, empires of the world, currencies of the world, & so on. And languages of the world: a little English on the map here, French German there; and then spread across 90% of the surface area, just one word, repeated as graphics dictated: "pidgin." another thing that struck me and I sure won't try all four languages since I can't even spell in English, but: on the SNFC, there's a quadrilingual sign in all the cars--French, English, German, Italian (they don't even bother w Spanish). The first three say, each in its own lingua franca, "it's forbidden to stick your head out of the window while the train is moving." The Italian version, instead, says it's "dangerous" to do it. e poi basta ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:13:00 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: whole lotta pidgin goin on In-Reply-To: <199601190615.XAA26007@web.azstarnet.com> Tenney--I like it! Always was partial to the plain English "mind your head" myself. Susan On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > >Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:43:40 -1000 > >From: Susan Schultz > >Subject: Re: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken > > > >Mark--I only meant to distinguish between pidgin, which was developed as > >a language to be used between plantation workers from Japan, China, the > >Philippines, and elsewhere and their bosses, relatively well-to-do > >whites, in their business dealings with one another. > > When I was visiting my American friend in his Paris sublet in 19 what 78, I > happened on an old French one-volume poorman's Britannica--a lil > encyclopedia. There was one of those lovely 10-20 page sections, in > multi-color plates, with repeated maps of the world carved up in various > ways (like Elizabeth Bishop liked): nations of the world, empires of the > world, currencies of the world, & so on. And languages of the world: a > little English on the map here, French German there; and then spread across > 90% of the surface area, just one word, repeated as graphics dictated: "pidgin." > > another thing that struck me and I sure won't try all four languages since I > can't even spell in English, but: on the SNFC, there's a quadrilingual sign > in all the cars--French, English, German, Italian (they don't even bother w > Spanish). The first three say, each in its own lingua franca, "it's > forbidden to stick your head out of the window while the train is moving." > The Italian version, instead, says it's "dangerous" to do it. > > e poi basta > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:02:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Galen Cope Subject: Re: whole lotta pidgin goin on As the old 'joke' goes: Q: What's a language got that a dialect hasn't got? A: A victorious army. -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 03:04:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Boontling The pidgin-ideolect-language discussion reminds me of the Northern California lingo (I think that's the proper term) called Boontling. It was created in the 1890s in the Anderson valley towns of Booneville, Anderson and Philo (not far from where Lydia Davis' half-brother Alexander Cockburn lives) by teenagers who basically wanted a "safe" means of talking dirty in the presence of their elders. But since they all grew up together and, except for those who ended up going off to WWI, stayed pretty much insular in that valley as adults, they let the lingo become the dominant language for their generation. Some of the very youngest ones to pick it up still show up at folk festivals in California, just telling (or as they would say "harping") stories. Radio and TV finally killed it off, their kids were more worldly and embarrassed at calling a pay phone a bucky walter, but if you go through Booneville (and there's an excellent rare bookstore there that specializes in 20th C. poetry), you will see that the pay phone is indeed labeled Bucky Walter. There's at least one book (a PhD dissertation) in print on it, by Charles Adams. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:36:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Boontling just to second the ref. to the boontling book ron mentions (_boontling: an american lingo_, with a dictionary of boontling), by charles adams (mountain house press, 1990)... really interesting stuff... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Boontling yes, i've heard of boontling, isn't there still a cafe in booneville called the Horn of Zees (cup of coffee)?--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:36:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology NEW THIS VERY DAY FROM TALISMAN: PRIMARY TROUBLE: AN ANTHOLOGY OF CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN POETRY, ed. Leonard Schwartz, Joseph Donahue, and Edward Foster. The most ambitious effort of its sort to day, Primary Trouble anthologizes the work of more than sixty poets representing those who have had a crucial impact in the last thirty or forty years. The work included here represents not only well acknowledged groups and practices such as the New York School, language writing, and multicultural traditions but also gnostic and hermetic work that is increasingly identified among the most interesting being published today. There was a publication reading for the book in Miami last week and a huge gathering at Intersection for the Arts in San Francisco this past Tuesday. There will be a publication reading at Biblio's in New York on February 25th, and similar readings will follow in other cities in the coming months. The book is available in fine bookstores and maybe ordered through SPD and Login Publishers Consortium/InBook (Visa/MasterCard). The book, with 478 + xx pages, is $24.95, and the ISBN is 1-883689-29-5. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology ed-- if you have a chance, could you post a listing of the included poets (or, even better, a toc...)? lbd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:50:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Primary Trouble So Ed, why not post a list of the writers included for our delectation? - Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:00:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Boontling This is Dodie Bellamy speaking. And then there was Spicer's Martian dialect. A quote from John Ryan: Jack Spicer and I were both fluent in Martian. I was North Martian, and he was South Martian, but we understood what we said perfectly well. We were going down into the Valley one year, before Christmas, on a train, and Jack had to go take a leak. Jack and I had been conversing in Martian, being quite full of Red Cap Ale, and a guy from another table came over and asked me when Jack went to the head, "Are you fellows Australian?" Jack returned and greeted the man, "Sit ka vassisi von ka, sta'chi que v'ay qray." ("Salut!".) That's Southern Martian. "Eiss! Sa schlein! Ja da lond, nar la loff." (That's "thank you," in Northern Martian.)" (from KK's Spicer bio--I am devouring the manuscript with great pleasure) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:11:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology yo ed foster: any book readings/celebs planned for boston? bestests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:28:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Boontling In-Reply-To: <199601200505.AAA06340@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Talk about yr coincidences -- on the same day that Ron posted his message about it, the _L.A. Times_ ran a story on the impending death of this lingo, along with interviews with colorful oldsters who still speak it and a glossary of terms for folk who might want to spice up their conversation with a few choice terms while "burlapping" with their lovers of an evening -- The explanations of the origins of the terms ("burlapping" being my favorite) are the best part of the piece -- I think the _Times_ is online, if you want to look it up -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:56:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Renga Solution This is Dodie Bellamy speaking. Last night Eryque Gleason told me about the website www.shareware.com, so I was playing around on it this morning and I found actually found Renga shareware! Here it is: clearstream1.08. A game for poets, derived from renga, a Japanese sit.hqx form. Renga's popularity extends back for several game/board/ hundred years. In a computerized environment, the Apr 05,1995 possibilties have opened for non-linear variations 228 K as well as random creations. Although poetic creation can be solitaire, group activity sparks and sparkles! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:05:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Renga Solution Redux This is Dodie Bellamy speaking. The renga game info that I sent in my previous post was in two columns on Netscape, but when copied into e-mail, the columns were collapsed into a rather jumbled transmission, which I'm sure the poets on this list had no trouble deciphering, probably didn't even notice anything *strange* going on. But for the rest of you, I cleaned up the text and am sending it again. Here it is: clearstream1.08. sit.hqx Apr 05,1995 228 K A game for poets, derived from renga, a Japanese form. Renga's popularity extends back for several game/board/ hundred years. In a computerized environment, the possibilties have opened for non-linear variations as well as random creations. Although poetic creation can be solitaire, group activity sparks and sparkles! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:43:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken question: is it "ideo" (ideas)- or "idio" (single indiv)-lects? i wd think the latter...? maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 05:06:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Ghosts vs. Martians Dodie's comments re Spicer made me think about the fact that there are TWO categories of communicative Other in Spicer's work. Martians is one, but ghosts are the other. What I want to know is What is the difference between these two realms for Spicer? Am totally envious that you get to read that book while I, like the rest of the world, just have to wait. Best, Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 11:44:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Ghosts vs. Martians Ron, I have spent the morning bugging Kevin about what he sees as the difference between Martians and ghosts. KK seems to think that they are, in fact, metaphors for the same phenomenon--which particular term Spicer chose often depending on who he was talking to. KK said that Martians seemed to drop away after a while, and ghosts took over as the predominant image. KK doesn't see much connection between the Martian dialect and this, seeing speaking Martian simply as a game that lovers play. Have you ever made up a language with another, Ron? I have. And, yes, I do feel lucky reading this book. But I also feel lucky about my long-term, totally passive exposure to Spicer's work and world, which began long before KK started the Spicer bio. Early on in my writing career Bruce Boone would read me Spicer and discuss his poetry and Bruce's vision of community. I remember Bruce having a party where a large group of us sat around his Noe Valley apartment and listened to a tape of Spicer reading _The Holy Grail_. And then there was the Spicer conference at New College. And John Granger's striking talk on Spicer at Small Press Traffic. And I've been particularly lucky in having met many of the people discussed in the Spicer bio. There's something very gratifying about having myself developed as a writer in San Francisco, and being emersed in this historical community which still has traces in the present. Recently KK, Peter Gizzi, and I went to the memorial service of the painter Tom Field, who was part of the Spicer circle. As I was leaving, Joanne Kyger and a number of other survivors of that era took what remained of the wine and headed up to Tom's room to drink because they could feel Tom there. Ghosts. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:51:52 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Alien languages Dodie: >And then there was Spicer's Martian dialect. Any of you fluent in Klingon? I've read about Klingon dictionaries, Klingon conventions, and undoubtebly more than one Klingon web page. Anyone read Edwin Morgan's fiendishly clever "The first men on Mercury"? Morgan's an accomplished linguist, so I assume a lot of thought went into the Mercurian language. Those of you conversant with Strine would know what "flares" are, and what an "Egg nishner" is. Cheers, Tom Beard. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://www.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Ghosts vs. Martians like kevin via dodie, i'm not sure how much is gained by looking for differences btw ghosts and martians in spicer. in my spicer chapter i treat them as slightly different inflections of spicer's felt affinity for otherworldliness(es) in his life: as a poet, as a gay man, etc. I'd say that there is in ghosts a resonance w/ keats's negative capability and eliot's anti-personality aesthetics ("what i am is by degrees a ghost"--letter to lorca in After Lorca), and in martians there's a sense (through appeal to cavalcantian appeals to mars as the "real" god of love as opposed to venus) of bellicose agonism, which certainly characterizes spicer's relationship to "the world" --and also, given the space-race fifties and sixties, to the concept of a fantasy/utopian projection where things could come true and whence "different" people came (somewhere over the rainbow, burroughs's "language is a virus from outer space," sun ra, etc, "my favorite martian" as a mass cultural model for alternate masculinity). etc. i had some ideas about 8 years ago of writing something about the iconography of the space-race and the emergent gay male community of the 50s and 60s, but like so many other ideas i never did it, nor could i persuade any of my grad students to pursue it. auden has a poem abt the space race, doesn't he? etc. bestests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:07:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Sydney Writing events on Aust. Day The following message has been posted by Australian Writing Online for Ariel Bookstore, Vintage & artspace. Enquiries about the title or service listed below should be directed to organisers at the contacts listed. ****************************** A Literary night out on Australia Day Book Launch Blur stories by young Australian writers, edited by James Bradley published by Vintage to be launched by Linda Javin at Ariel Bookstore 42 Oxford Street Paddington NSW 2021 Friday 26 January 1996 6pm RSVP to Jenny Evans on 02 99549966 Performance Reading January 26, 7.30 to 9 pm artspace, 43-51 Cowper Wharf, Woolloomooloo. Details ph 02 368 1899, fax 02 3681705 Featuring Anna Couani Ruark Lewis Chris Mann pi0 Alexandra Pitsis Amanda Stewart Ania Walwicz Tickets $10. Phone bookings on 02 3681899 or on door. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:48:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Kevin Spacey Chris Stroffolino wrote: Hey, has anybody else noticed his resemblance to Frank? > Is anybody interested in writing a screenplay about O'Hara et al? > One scene could act out a "terrestrial cuckoo"? But who would play Jane? > And would Kevin do it? Certainly the screenplay shouldn't be based > on the GOOCH book...... > cs. Yes, Spacey would be ideal for the "Frank O'Hara" story. But don't get me started. In half an hour I had the entire movie cast: I see Chris O'Donnell as Joe LeSueur, and Bill Pullman as the young John Ashbery. For Jane, who else but Jennifer Jason Leigh! Or maybe she would be better as V R ("Bunny") Lang, and Winona Ryder could play Jane. Stephen Dorff could play the seductive heartless Bill Berkson that Gooch has imagined into being. If "they" could teach Brad Pitt to dance, he would be great as Vincent Warren. The frame story would have Brad in the present running around interviewing all these people in old makeup, and Brad could be Leonardo Di Caprio, except they'd have to dye his hair. Dodie suggests a heterosexual love interest for Brad-a rival researcher, perhaps-Julia Roberts, snappy reporter, with glasses, which she could take off at opportune moments. Now for the other characters: the young James Schuyler: Crispin Glover. Helen Frankenthaler: Judy Davis. Larry Rivers: David Schwimmer (from TV's "Friends"). Leonardo di Caprio as James Dean, Angela Bassett (who else?) as Billie Holiday, Sharon Stone as Lana Turner. So don't get me started, okay? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:12:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Re: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken Comments: To: Susan Schultz In-Reply-To: Susan: My understanding of the conventional distinction between dialect and idiolect would go something like this--dialect is (supposedly!) a cultural or regional outgrowth of difference in a particular language, or between particular languages, based in use by a shared group of people in a particular environment, or who consider themselves to have similar group characteristics, whether national, racial, or ethic. Dialect tends to posit a certain level of "naturalness"--that is, it tends not to be considered a self-aware creation of difference in a particular language, but simply an outgrowth of people's actual interactions. Dialect is supposedly unconscious, to a certain extent. Idiolect, on the other hand, is conventionally thought of (if it's conventionally thought of at all) as being an intellectually CREATED difference within a particular language or between languages, designed usually with a certain level of conscious resistance to the normative language from which it emerges, or, if not resistance, at least with an awareness that new terminology needs to be created for a certain set of users. In practice, of course, these distinctions are not as clear. I'm thinking for instance of Hugh McDiarmid, whose use of Scottish "dialect" in poetry is a completely intellectually conscious decision to disrupt normative English by reinstituting Scots (a language, that for all official and most unofficial purposes, was pretty much dead in Scotland at the time, disliked even by many very nationalist Scots). McDiarmid's use of dialect is therefore in some sense idiolect. I wonder if this is true of many of the Hawaiian writers in which you're interested...it's one thing to speak Haole (is that the word?) to a shared group that understands that language, it's another to assert your right to do so to people in a literay context outside the group in question... Does idiolect have elements of dialect, sometimes? I tend to think yes. Computer languages, for instance, while certainly having a base in idiolect (they use terms particularly invented by consciously "intellectual" practitioners), tend more and more to have elements of "dialect" as they become more unconsciously used "simply as part of the language" of a cultural subset of, say, English speakers. Looking forward to your response, mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:05:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: ideolects and idiolects Maria: I actually don't know whether the spelling is "ideo" or "idio," or whether one can use both. I've been using the spellings interchangeably, and obviously there's a problem somewhere. Thanks for pointing it out1 mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:21:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: Ghosts vs. Martians >> something about the iconography of the >>space-race and the emergent gay male community of the 50s and 60s, but like >>so many other ideas i never did it, nor could i persuade any of my grad >>students to pursue it. auden has a poem abt the space race, doesn't he? >>etc. bestests, maria d Maria, I was reminded of the poem even before I came to the last sentence of your post. Especially the opening lines, "It's natural the Boys should whoop it up for/ So huge a phallic triumph, an adventure/ it would not have occured to women/ to think worthwhile, made possible only/ because we like huddling in gangs and knowing/ the exact time: yes, our sex may in fairness/ Hurrah the deed, although the motives/ That primed it were somewhat less than menschilch" I think that's right. Dodie/Kevin: when will the Spicer bio be available to the public? daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:57:35 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: elitism The charge of elitism in poetry rarely, I think, stems from its exclusion of others. We can see this by comparing poetry folks to other groups with specialized interests. For instance, a zine that focusses on Bobby Brady may seem weird to most people, but I doubt if it would seem elitist. However, a zine that presents "difficult" poetry may seems both weird and elitist. Why? Because poetry still connotes culture (i.e. social status.) Knowing about Bobby Brady is not associated in many people's minds with high culture, poetry is. When people who think of themselves as "cultured" read "difficult" poetry and find it incomprehensible, they must protect their status by diffusing the cultural value of the "difficult" poetry. Hence, they dismiss it as elitist. (Isn't the charge of "elitism" an attempt at dismissal?) I believe that many poets working within the experimental (avant-garde, modernist, etc.) tradition have attempted to sever the ties between poetry and "high culture." But such severing does not work for those who don't read us, and when they do they often bring the association with them. So they dismiss our work on the basis of a conception of poetry that the work itself is dismantling. In the end, the charge of elitism seems hollow to me. I know a lot of poets; we are not as snobby or arrogant as many people I know who have a lot of money. In our culture, money is elitist, not poetry. If someone does charge us of being elitist, perhaps we could offer to show them some of the language games frequently used by "difficult" poets, and more will be either clear or obfuscated in a useful way. Best, Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:02:21 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: Saro-Wiwa In December, a number of us wrote to Shell Oil, the Nigerian Government, and President Clinton expressing our outrage at the murder of writer/activist Ken Saro-Wiwa and eight others. In it, we told Shell that we will boycott their products until they show improvement in their dealings with Native Peoples. Shell wrote back. Any of you interested in seeing what they have to say in their defense, should send me a SASE to 2510 hwy 100 south #333, St. Louis Park, MN 55416. I'll send you a xerox. Do any of you think they responded to us because we let them know that we are writers? I'd like to think so. jeff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:27:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Primary Trouble PRIMARY TROUBLE: to answer questions, requests: the anthology does not (from my point-of-view) seek heroes. it's beside the point at this date to say here is the best. what nonsense. that's a game for the academy. primary trouble is edited by and for poets and tries to document what's been going on. to suggest what the full arc (ark?) is like. you can't do everything or you'll have a doorstop. so: the three editors are radically different (RADICALLY different) from each other in their poetry/poetics. and that's the point. with such different perspectives, agreement would be something of an achievement. one couldn't say simply this is what i like, but rather this is somehow representative. so the contents of the book was the result of enormous work and argument, and the really amazing thing is that we are still talking to each other, indeed are still friends. and i think that although we are still as much in disagreement in matters of poetics as before, we do feel that the book represents well the range of work done in the past thirty or so years outside academic and conservative traditions. No one/nothing is priviliged here, so don't expect a program or agenda, but the range is here. the book is the work of poets, not critics, and so the editors include their own work for anyone who wants to see where their arguments begin. then: will alexander, ivan arguelles, dodie bellamy, ted berrigan, mei-mei berssenbrugge, charles borkhuis, lee ann brown, joseph ceravolo, norma cole, peter cole, clark coolidge, diane di prima, stephen ellis, norman finkelstein, kathleed fraser, forest gander, drew gardner, john high, anselm hollo, virginia hooper, fanny howe, susan howe, ronald johnson, andrew joron, robert kelly, myung mi kim, ann lauterbach, nathaniel mackey, kevin magee, tom mandel, bernadette mayer, albert mobilio, laura moriarty, shelia murphy, eileen myles, claire needell, alice notley, geoffrey o'brien, michael palmer, simon pettet, stephen ratcliffe, donald revell, ed roberson, elizabeth robinson, janet rodney, david rosenberg, stephen sartarelli, leslie scalapino, andrew schelling, barry seiler, spencer selby, david shapiro, aaron shurin, mary margaret sloan, gustaf sobin, john taggart, george tysh, anne waldman, and john yau. other names? sure, of course, there are many other i certainly might add, or leonard might, or joe might, BUT the list is representative. the point is the community, not heroes. there is also work here by William Bronk, H.D., Gerrit Lansing, and Emerson (!), and the title is from Duncan. We hope that these will held "place" the community. But, of course, there are others--Spicer, Pound, Stevens, etc.--who are essential. The introduction is leonard's and the is a very extensive poetics section with commentary by will alexander, clark coolidge, fanny howe, robert kelly, leslie scalapino, gustaf sobin, anne waldman, and myself. none of these pieces fall strictly within the dimensions of coventional critical commentary, for if the anthology as a whole says one thing clearly, it is that poetry does not exist there, at all. the book's isbn is 1-883689-28-7 and costs $24.95 (which is a lot but given printing, shipping, distribution, etc., may very well not be enough to cover the bills). if it isn't on the shelves in good bookstores already (or within a few days at most), SHAME on them. the best thing is to ask any such store to order and stock NOW, but you can also get copies using Visa/MasterCard by calling 1-800-243-0138. Or through Small Press Distribution or directly through Login Publishers Consortium/InBook, 1436 West Randolph Street, Chicago, IL 60607. You have to add $3 postage/shipping for the first book and $1 for each addition. Talisman doesn't (actually can't) do orders directly, but we have a new catalog, and if you want copies, please write to Talisman at P.O.Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:32:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology dear maria d: yes, we're definitely hoping for a boston reading/publication psa rty soon, but i don't have an exacvt date. BUT also to note: this summer's Talisman is going to have an amazing section on the terrific Boston people, edited by Michael Franco, who is certainly the one to do it! he's one of the best himself. --ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:19:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kathryne Subject: Re: poet search In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:12:42 -0500 from Does anyone have a current and reliable address for Ted Joans; I have heard that he might be in Seattle. I would like to be in touch with him, so if anyone can help, please post me, Kathyne Lindberg, klindbe@cms.cc.wayne.edu Thanks. I don't guess that he has email, so I am content with snail mail, preferably to a reliable rumored US address. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Ghosts vs. Martians In-Reply-To: Message of 01/21/96 at 21:45:21 from MDamon9999@AOL.COM On Spicer's martians &/or ghosts: In the first wave of UFO narratives in late- '40s/early-'50s there was a strange confluence of spiritualism & sci-fi that was gradually marginalized in ufologists discourse in subsequent decades (but maybe has leached back into it lately?) -- anyway, possibly Spicer's Martians come out of that nexus, & so have "ghostly" associations built in? All this is documented by Curtis Peebles in a highly recommended book, Watch the Skies! A Chronicle of the Flying Saucer Myth, Smithsonian, 1994. Brian McHale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:09:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: elitism >In our culture, money is elitist, not poetry. > >If someone does charge us of being elitist, perhaps we could offer to show >them some of the language games frequently used by "difficult" poets, and more >will be either clear or obfuscated in a useful way. > >Best, Jeff Yeah! Anybody see the Saturday New York Times? An article on poetry in Japan, the tv shows there about poetry, the front-page newspaper columns about poetry? "Millions of Japanese regularly write poetry--by various counts 5 million to more than 10 million, out of a population of 125 million--and untold millions more savor the poetry of others." Maybe our ambition needs to be revised. Anybody on the list from/in Japan who can speak to this figure of four to eight percent of the population writing poetry? And then, on the relative elitisms in poetry there--that is, do "serious" poets--whatever those are--watch poetry shows? Read the poetry columns? Or is the distinction between "serious" and "other" configured as something more like "accomplished" and "novice"? Carry me home, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:25:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: International poetry conference/festival Another invitation to all POETICS subscribers (& interested friends): ASSEMBLING ALTERNATIVES: AN INTERNATIONAL POETRY CONFERENCE/FESTIVAL is scheduled for 29 August - 2 September, 1996 at the New England Center, University of New Hampshire, U.S.A. These three and one-half days of discussions and four nights of readings/performances open to the community wil focus on relationships & differences between "experimental" (for lack of a better word) poetries in the U.S., U.K., Canada and Ireland. Poets and readers from other countries are also invited to join us to talk about new directions in these poetries and ways/problems of reading across cultures. More than forty poets from the four named nations will read and perform for the conference gathering and community; they range from the most well-known (such as Charles Bernstein, Nicole Brossard, Tom Raworth, Denise Riley, Steve McCaffery, Rae Armantrout, Maggie O'Sullivan, Allen Fisher, Karen MacCormack, Maurice Scully, Joan Retallack, Paul Muldoon, Sean O'Luigin, Jeff Derksen, Marjorie Welish, Ken Edwards, cris cheek, Wendy Mulford, Lyn Hejinian and many others whose plans are still coming to form) to the most new-on-the-scene(s). Readers as celebrated and helpful as Marjorie Perloff, Peter Quartermain, Clair Wills, Peter Middleton, Charles Altieri and a host --too many to name -- of others will be giving papers and leading discussions, as will many of the poets as well. Paper-deliverers at this point are coming from as far away as Taiwan and Tasmania; much is still in flux and spaces are still open for talks, so do please contact me if you would like more current information (full schedules of plenary sessions and readings will be ready in the spring). Deadline for abstracts have been extended to March 1996. Romana Huk, Dept. of English, University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH 03824, U.S.A.; Tel.: 603 862 3992; FAX: 603 862 3962; rch@hopper.unh.edu (Please send snail-mail addresses for mailing of information.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Ghosts vs. Martians In-Reply-To: from "Brian McHale" at Jan 22, 96 01:37:53 pm When talking of ghosts in relation to Spicer, one should never forget the bull-goose ghost, i.e. the Holy Ghost. Reverentially, Mike mboughn@epas.uotornto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: The Big 1 (fwd) Wanted to be sure this info was going out to all-- sounds like fun to me! > Subject: The Big 1 > > Mad Alex Presents at Biblio's: > > THE BIG ONE > > "I'm all ears for Bob." > Prof. Steve Cannon > > > > > 2 Hours Straight From Bob Holman's Mouth > > > > > > Bob will read new work. He will read old work. He will read middle-aged work. > Work, work work! That's all he seems to do. Now he's got two new jobs, > besides his full-time job of being a poet: working for the new Spoken Word > record label, MOUTH ALMIGHTY, and creating the poetry page for a new Internet > server, iGUIDE. This reading takes place a week before his series, The United > States of Poetry, premieres on PBS (Channel 13, Feb. 1, 8, 15, 22, 29, > 10:30). There will be intermittent discussion, no rambling (psyche!), and > selections from his new book, The Collect Call of the Wild (Henry Holt). Tea, > coffee, etc. Nutritional verbal outpourings. Bob will honor audience > requests. Ask for your favorites, or demand something you've never heard > before. This is your chance to be alone with Bob and everybody else. > > > > Biblio's > Writer's Retrospective Series > Thursday, January 25 6:30-8:30 Five Bucks > 317 Church (one block S. of Canal, between Lispenard & Walker) > 212-334-6990 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Primary Trouble phone calls just now remind me to apologize for typographical errors in previous note and remind me that it would be good to emphasize this from leonard's introduction: "Any poetry also creates a history, a history that so nearly vanishes at a certain point into its contemporaneous edge that a special effort must be made to illuminate what has happened, as it is happening. When we speak of _Primary Trouble: An Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry_, it is to construct, from a fresh perspective, a formulation of poetic process as it has been explored by several generations of contemporary American poets. . . . _Primary Trouble_ proposes to provide an alternate focus, a necessary rethinking, of how our poetry works." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:53:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology yo, ed foster, in response to the following, please keep me apprised: dear maria d: yes, we're definitely hoping for a boston reading/publication psa rty soon, but i don't have an exacvt date. ---thanks, dude, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:52:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathryne Lindberg Subject: new book I just received the advance copy of a book I edited, AMERICA'S MODERNISMS: REVALUING THE CANON (Essays in Honor of Joseph N. Riddel), Louisiana State University Press, 1996. ISBN 0-8071-2018-9 It is quite expensive, so get your local or university library to order it. My introduction marks what I see as perhaps my last effort in the high deconstructive mode of hard-boiled puns and philosophical gestures. Essays on 19th and 20th century literature and philosophy as well as a memorial minute by Jacques Derrida and Joe Riddel's last essay might interest you all; but this is not strictly poetic or poetics. Essays by Charles Altieri, Mark Bauerlein, Michael Beehler, Paul Bove, Edgar Dryden, John Johnston, Margot Norris, John Carlos Rowe, and Henry Sussman and an Afterword by co-editor Joseph Kronick make up the contents. It is an attractive book, and, while I now am circling back to wilder things, I suggest you take a look. Your library needs this one, and my next feels easier with the encouragement of seeing this FINALLY. Fuck academic presses: I finished all the work on this book nearly three years ago. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 22:02:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathryne Lindberg Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poetry: the Norton Anthology In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:53:46 -0500 from By the way, it might give you all pleasure--or at least a bit of a smile?--to know that THE NORTON ANTHOLOGY OF AFRICAN AMERICAN LITERATURE will include, among its necessarily selected selections, something of Bob Kaufman and Ted Joans. Since their work has recently, however variously and differently, made me re-read things in a new way, I am happy to know this. Who knows when this anthology will come out. I am sure it will bug some folks BIG TIME for reasons we will know in the fullness of time and the emptiness of anthologizing futures. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 22:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: ideolect In "The Poetics of the Americas" I use the word 'ideolect' to suggest a constructed, ideological self-conscious poetic language practice. That essay, which A.L. Neilsen is including in "An Area of Act": Race and Readings in American Poetry (forthcoming, University of Illinois Press) (I _should_ be doing the revisions on that now rather than _this_!, any day, A.L.!) discusses formal and social affinities between dialect and ideolect poetry. I particularly emphasize the shared resistance to standard English among dialect and ideolect poets. One way or another I have been working on this theme since the late 1980s and have given several graduate seminars at UB on the issues (as you can see if you check out my course syllabussssssssssssssses @ wings.buffalo.edu/epc). The titles for those seminars have involved plays on dialect/dialogue/ideology/ideolect/idiolect/dialogic/dialectic ... I use ideolect in order to socialize the idiolectical and indeed the idiosyncratic but also because the poetry I am writing about is not an idiolect. The root contrasts, ideo/idea vs idio/I-own, are the sort of mutually cancelling, not to say paradoxical, distinctions that are at the heart the essay (self/nation, individual/group, word/phrase). In this context, I read dialect as constructed fully as much as ideolect. Susan Schultz refers to a version of my "argument" in her essay in _A Poetics of Criticism_. So, Maria, my use of the term _ideolect_ is not idiosyncratic, though possibly neologistic; surely ideological. ** Here's a brief excerpt from "Poetics of the Americas": In the poetry of the past two decades, I think we have moved away from the choice of subjective, objective, or even constructive and toward a synthesizing or juxtaposing these approaches. Here the influence of the dialect poetries of the modernist period gives way to a dialectical poetry that refuses allegiance to Standard English without necessarily basing its claim on an affiliation with a definable group's speaking practice. The norm enforces a conduct of representation that precludes poetry as an active agent to further thought, unbound to the restrictions of rationalized ordering systems. Poetry can be a process of thinking rather than a report of things already settled; an investigation of figuration rather than a picture of something figured out. Such ideologically informed nonstandard language practice I call _ideolectical_. ... The invention of an ideolectical English language poetry, as a poetry of the Americas, involves the replacement of the national and geographically centered category of English (or Spanish) poetry not with the equally essentialist category of American poetry but with a field of potentialities, a virtual America that we approach but never possess. English languages, set adrift from the sight/sound sensorium of the concrete experiences of the English people, are at their hearts uprooted and translated: nomadic in origin, absolutely particular in practice. Invention in this context is not a matter of choice: it is as necessary as the ground we walk on. The impossible poetics of the Americas of which I speak has, in the U.S., a history of breaks from the received literary language of England. The vernacular was a crucial factor in many of those breaks, particularly as explored by such African-Americans poets as Paul Laurence Dunbar, Langston Hughes, Sterling Brown, J. W. Johnson, and Melvin Tolson. At the same time, the American language was being transformed by the "bad" or "broken" English of the European immigrants from the 1880s through the early years of the new century: "new" syntaxes, new expressions came along with the new world. Here it is significant that Williams, Gertrude Stein, Louis Zukofsky and other makers of a new American poetry were themselves second-language speakers of English, while others were children of second-language speakers, as Peter Quartermain notes in Disjunctive Poetics. So for these children of immigrants, English became less transparent, more a medium subject to reforming. Correlatively, on the other side of the Atlantic, the explorations of dialect traditions by Basil Bunting and Hugh MacDiarmid and in the Caribbean by Claude McKay and more recently by Linton Kwesi Johnson, Louise Bennett, Michael Smith, or Kamau Brathwaite (who rejects the term dialect, preferring "nation language"), become a source of shared language resources among English language poetries. I realize that my emphasis on nonstandard language practices makes for unexpected affiliations. Tony Crowley, in _Standard English and the Politics of Language_, points to two senses of "standard". A standard is a rallying point for the forward movement of an ideology or group, by means of which a unity is invoked, as for example a flag in battle. But a standard is also an objective unit of measure and regulator of uniformity, and as such a product of normalization and averaging. Standard American English involves both these senses: it is a sociohistorical construction, embedding class, ethnic, and racial preferences, that serves to build national unity; and it is also a regulator of language practices, serving to curb deviance. Under the aegis of standardization, problems of social coherence are displaced onto questions of linguistic correctness. ...... As our literary history is usually told, the nonstandard language practices of the radical modernists, and their descendants, are not linked to the dialect and vernacular practices of African-American poets. But the construction of a vernacular poetry was a major project for many poets, black and white, during the modernist period, and the fact that these developments often took place without reference to each other -- the fact of the color line -- should not now obscure their intimate formal and sociohistorical connection. Stein's breakthrough into the ideolectical practice of Tender Buttons, for example, was prepared by her problematic improvisations on African-American vernacular in "Melanctha". A generation later, both Melvin Tolson and Louis Zukofsky used complex literary framing devices as a means of working with, and against ~ I'd say torquing ~ vernacular linguistic materials. By linking dialect and ideolect I wish to emphasize the common ground of linguistic exploration, the invention of new syntaxes as akin to the invention of new Americas, or possibilities for America. In Brathwaite's account, however, dialect is better called "nation language" and if that is the case it would seem to run counter to ideolect, whose nations may be described, in Robin Blaser's phrase, as image nations, imaginary, ideological; dialectical in that other sense. I don't wish to relieve this tension so much as to try to locate it as pivotal to our literary history and contemporary poetics. I am convinced, however, that nonstandard writing practices share a technical commonality that overrides the necessary differences in interpretation and motivation, and this commonality may be the vortical prosodic force that gives us footing with one another. ......... --Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Even more to do on Australia Day!! The following message has been posted by Australian Writing Online for Ulitarra magazine and Gleebooks. Enquiries about the title or service listed below should be directed to Gleebooks at the contact listed. *********************************** The evenning of the 26 January is shaping up to be one of the busiest literary night in Sydney for some time Ulitarra No 8 and J S Harry's Selected Poems (Penguin) will be launched by Michael Wilding at Gleebooks 49 Glebe Point Road, Glebe Ph 02 6602333 at 6.30 pm on Friday January 26. Readers will include Michael Wilding, J S Harry, Luke Davies, Anna Marie Dell'oso (from her recent book "The Accordion Man"), Anna Voigt and Soumyer Hukherjee with translations from Bengali literature. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:08:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: new book Dear Kathryne Lindberg--- I'm curious what your next direction is after "hard-boiled puns and philosophic gestures" in the RIDDEL book. Would you be interested in telling us more of these "wilder things"? Or must we wait? Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:33:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kathryne lindberg Subject: Re: new book In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:08:07 -0500 from Wilder things=a sort of recourse to the old reading list I knew and grew with in the 60's. That is, it seems to me that when we were reading Fanon, Kafka, Sartre, Camus, watching "Battle of Algiers," thinking through filmic and essayistic "Black Orpheus," etc. the 60's were more expansively global than I remember. I was really too young to be anything but a very precious and precocious pretender, landlubber, etc., but, growing up in San Francisco in the 60's, with the treble pleasures of dope, sex, and rock 'n roll, patroniz ing the same CHINA BOOKS from which the Panthers bought the Little Red Books of Mao from which they turned a profit, I learned even more than hip books taught. Pound once made loads of what was "in the air"; and I won't go into the fug that he channeled from the air into his politics, but there were things in the air--more important things than today's revisionary categorizing of race, gender, class?--that might be worth breathing again. Oh, for those days when metaphors like Emerson's God could be faced directly? This is scattered, but what I mean is that certain resistance movements in Eastern Europe and, for my money, in Africa and South East Asia were more alive in the intellectual life of the 60's than one remembers--especially in the Caribbean and France (including African American ex-pats) continuous from at least the 40's. There's wild stuff, along the lines that Charles was just suggesting, when one reads say exilic (rather than immigrant) Americans in such a way as to include hard Left and African Americans. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jackson Mac Low Subject: Mac Low & Benson reading/collab @ New Langton Arts Thurs 1/26/96 8pm To all Poetics List people in the Bay area: Steve Benson & I will do a reading each & 2 collaborative performances @ New Langton Arts on Folsom St SF on Thurs 1/26/96 @ 8 pm. 1st Steve will do a solo rdg;then we'll do a spontaneous collaboration (working partly from parts of texts; then recess; then I'll do a solo reding, then we'll do a second collaboration, amen. Hope to see some of you-all, Jackson Mac Low ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:19:40 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: Re: elitism Comments: cc: jdavis@panix.com In-Reply-To: <199601230506.AAA10605@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>; from "Automatic digest processor" at Jan 23, 96 12:04 (midnight) Jordon > Anybody on the list from/in Japan who can speak to this figure of four to > eight percent of the population writing poetry? And then, on the relative > elitisms in poetry there--that is, do "serious" poets--whatever those > are--watch poetry shows? Read the poetry columns? Or is the distinction > between "serious" and "other" configured as something more like > "accomplished" and "novice"? I'm in Japan but that statistic makes little sense to me. What does writing poetry mean-- culturally determined, I suspect. No solace there... Don't know, Akitoshi Nagahata, if you're around maybe you could comment more helpfully. best, John Geraets ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:20:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: new book Dear K-- Your wilder project sounds wonderful, and even though I was only 7 with an imposed crew cut at "honor america day" 7-4-70, I remember the yippies naked in the reflecting pound chanting "bob hope smokes dope" and am definitely skeptical of academic "radicalism" that is more like "careerism" and/or "paying dues"--and am wondering how we could go beyond this, and would be glad to offer any small hope I mean help I can. For what you are doing doesn't seem like safe little 60's retro stuff, or mere pop culture stuff...I'm looking forward to any possible existential refigurations you seem to be moving towards. How take it to the streets? And yes STREETS not just "information highways"--or at least supermarket aisles.... Thanks (well back to my dues paying poststructuralist diss.---hopefully I can bend the form a bit so theres something REAL in it though...) chris s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 22:49:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: new book In-Reply-To: On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, kathryne lindberg wrote: > Wilder things..... >there were things in the air.... > breathing again.... > in Eastern Europe and, for my money, in Africa and South East Asia >were more alive... Is this not true in general? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:37:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Ghosts & Martians What I would say is that the Martians are what we SEE in the mirror. The ghosts are what pass through. As to say: the Wall of Truth has only one side (not this one). So that in Spicer (and recalling the parallel Ed Foster felt existed with Mallarme) poetry is in fact a function with a lower limit of writeability and upper limit, death. I don't necessarily think that, but it strikes me that for Spicer it was true. lp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:10:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: primo bio In-Reply-To: <199601230506.AAA10605@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Jan 23, 96 00:04:15 am Recent refs to the Spicer-in-da-woiks have made me wonder: are there any really good bios of potes out there now? I haven't had much luck finding them myself. Just started the new Rilke "life" & can't seem to put much confidence in its assessments so far. Pretty early on a fairly normal letter from 8-year-old Rene to his dad gets tagged in bio-talk as sounding "a falsetto of repressed hysteria." And there are some really bizarre and slippery tonalities throughout the little bit i've read. Has anyone read Lou Andreas-Salome's book on R.? thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:19:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: new book > Fuck academic presses: >I finished all the work on this book nearly three years ago. While I think there are plenty of reasons to "fuck academic presses," I know that the only presses who do much better than this, time-wise, are the BIG commercial presses, and the smallest micro/desktop-publish presses. And while I bless the latter, I have a variety of problems with the former. Still, Kathryne, it's good to hear about your book, and I look forward to seeing it. charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:26:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: boys in space In-Reply-To: <199601230506.AAA10605@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Jan 23, 96 00:04:15 am OK, following the Auden poem on the space race i can't resist bringing this in. I've always been in intrigued by a strange, little moment in Oppen's notebook-writing where, w/ some embarassment, he confesses to himself the following: among the things I don't want to say --out of old friendship-- is this: if we did NOT undertake the "Space Program" we would cease to be anything we have meant by "human" ((all the women I can remember speaking of of the space program have been opposed to it--Secretly, at these moments, I regard these women as sub human------I do, I do.... Any comments? steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:44:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: boys in space In-Reply-To: <199601230506.AAA10605@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Jan 23, 96 00:04:15 am Mebbe i shld follow up on my previous message by quoting the message that directly preceded/instigated it: "It's natural the Boys should whoop it up for/ So huge a phallic triumph, an adventure/ it would not have occured to women/ to think worthwhile, made possible only/ because we like huddling in gangs and knowing/ the exact time: yes, our sex may in fairness/ Hurrah the deed, although the motives/ That primed it were somewhat less than menschilch" I think that's right. Dodie/Kevin: when will the Spicer bio be available to the public? daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ------------------------------ I guess what i was struck by is that even tho' Auden is poking fun at the Boys he & Oppen both seem to take it for granted that the space is race is a boy thing ("it would not have occured to women") steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:50:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: the ways of what folks In-Reply-To: <199601230506.AAA10605@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> an aside on recent discussion of neologism "ideolect" -- The one thing our questionable outside reader never questioned was Charles's use of the spelling "ideolect" -- Sort of takes all the fun out of a neologism, doesn't it? By the way, Kathryn also has an essay in this forthcoming book which may well take as long top come forth as her JR anthology, but surely not as long as the Norton Afro-American collection, which I first heard was almost ready almost 11 years ago -- "to" come forth -- "top" come forth -- neoconjugation? ALSO just received Juliana Spahr's surprise _Witness_ in the mail -- a wonderful treat, best deposition of the day! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:31:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Ghosts & Martians At 8:37 AM 1/23/96, Larry Price wrote: >What I would say is that the Martians are what we SEE in the mirror. The >ghosts are what pass through. As to say: the Wall of Truth has only one side >(not this one). So that in Spicer (and recalling the parallel Ed Foster felt >existed with Mallarme) poetry is in fact a function with a lower limit of >writeability and upper limit, death. I don't necessarily think that, but it >strikes me that for Spicer it was true. It's good to see you extending this discussion of ghosts and Martians beyond cultural sources, Larry. While those kinds of tracings are certainly interesting, I think when you're dealing with someone like Spicer who speaks of dictation--or anyone who's poetry is really Alive--things get much messier, can't be broken down into "ghost equals blah blah." I would imagine that when Spicer spoke of "ghosts" in terms of explaining his poetry they were far different "ghosts" than those who actually manifested themselves in his poetry. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: ideolect thanks for the clarification, charles --md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:31:00 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: ideolects, Hawaii, and being mistaken Comments: To: Mark Wallace In-Reply-To: Mark--I have no quarrel with your positioning of idi(e)olect and dialect; I agree that "lects" are often used strategically rather than "naturally." I once asked Lois-Ann Yamanaka, who had delivered a talk in Michigan about the use of pidgin in her work, why she hadn't given the talk in pidgin. She said she would have done so only if she were angry. Thus, in her use of language, pidgin and standard English are both markers of "place"; you're an insider or an outsider depending on what language you speak (or confront). Other pidgin writers are less angry, but their sense of community is founded on language. These writers are often criticized for writing almost exclusively about their childhoods. Yet campaigns against the use of pidgin, particularly in school and in business, have meant that pidgin is the language of childhood; the writer doesn't choose the language so much as have it chosen for him or her by various institutions. (I think this is changing, in large part because of literature written in pidgin over the last 20 years or so.) The origins of pidgin aren't any more "natural" than those of an idiolect, but I wonder if there are any creole speakers of idiolects? Do they get handed down and hence "naturalized"? Thanks Charles for your post. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 22:55:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: idio ideo Idio vs. ideo It occurs to me that this is an issue better decided by association than etymology. For me, idio leads to idiothetic (as opposed to nomothetic - as a psychologist I associate here the distinction between individual - and less "scientific"? - and group tests, data, etc.). idiopathic idiosyncratic idiotic ideo leads to ideology ideal idea Then does idiolect refer to individual or one person or group and ideolect refer to lofty or elevated content-oriented discourse? This is my impression on seeing them here. Tom Bell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:21:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: boys in space steve, fascinating stuff from oppen, and refreshingly frank, since in my experience the shallowest surface-scratching tends to reveal this conviction in most androids --who nonetheless wd never admit it even to themselves. sorry for this cynicism, i wish it were otherwise. i think we're collectively onto something as regards martians and homosociality, jack spicer and co. etc. i just wrote a brief piece on the angel fad, and how i think it's related to the metaphysical anxieties of postmodernity: reproduction, mortality, sexuality --the dilemmas of having a body in this current condition... bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: primo bio In-Reply-To: <199601231710.MAA187382@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> Two recent poets/writers bios I've found good to excellent (& most refreshing after the Clark/Olson disaster & the Gooch/O'Hara cocktail chatter) are the recent Polizzotti book on Andre Breton (Revolution of the Mind) & Edmund White's bio of Jean Genet (which is superb indeed). Pierre On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Steven Howard Shoemaker wrote: > Recent refs to the Spicer-in-da-woiks have made me wonder: are there any > really good bios of potes out there now? I haven't had much luck finding > them myself. > > thanks, > steve > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:49:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: primo bio pierre, forgive my ignorance. could you, briefly, if you have a moment to spare, say something about how the clark bio of olson is a disaster? backchannel is okay with me unless others are into this. burt kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:18:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: ideolects shaking hands with dialects On the subject of where ideolects meet with dialects, I'm noting recently a number of poets who are consciously COMBINING the two possibilities in interesting ways. Writers like Edwin Torres, Barry Masuda (who Susan Schultz can say more about) Rodrigo Toscano, Bob Harrison are both writing out of a position of cultural difference with greater or lesser interventions of dialect, while at the same time working in a post-language, disruptive syntax. Precursors seem to be to me writers like Stephen Jonas, Melvin Tolson and perhaps Lorenzo Thomas. Actually, I think there's probably more of this kind of poetic activity going on than I'm currently aware of--I just received a letter from a writer I don't know by the name of Hung T. Qu (who gives Vietnam and Southern California as two of a number of places of residence) who hints at some of these same issues. I'd be interested if there's anyone out there who could point me in the direction of more writers working at this extremely interesting interstice. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:53:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: topo gigio Into! (Btw is Gooch's book really cocktail chatter--generic putdown of NYS writing--or do you mean that its relentless presentation of the _mise en scene_ of O'Hara's poetry trivializes the play, the brutality, the clarity of that poetry? Not to mention the embarrassing suggestion that O'Hara was actually a suicide victim ((btbtw anybody hear anything about this KGB/Checka report that Mayakovsky and Esenin were murdered? or is that old news)). But then aren't first biographies usually flawed? True there have been studies of the work by people on this list, but you have to give Gooch his props for getting a book on FOH carried by Book of the Month Club.) Tell on! Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:10:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Boys in space Hi, it's Kevin Killian. Let me give me 2 cents about the differences I see between Oppen and Spicer and their use of space travel in their work. In December I gave a lecture at SF State about Oppen, which turned on GO's use of an epigraph from Heinlein in one of his books. The Oppens I guess were very taken by Heinlein-partly, I suppose, since s/f books were among the few unproscribed by the Party during their Mexican exile in the 50s, they were books which could be read with impunity, if we can believe Mary Oppen's memoir, "Meaning a Life." Spicer's s/f interests were very different, colored by his own personal terror of "outer space." He was as opposed to the space race as the women of Oppen's acquaintance: "I can't stand to see them shimmering in the impossible music of the Star Spangled Banner [....] The poetry/ Of the absurd comes through San Francisco television. Directly connected with moon rockets./ If this is dictation, it is driving/ Me wild." Whether this poem (Ten Poems for Downbeat #5, "for Huntz") refers to the space program or to the concurrent WNET/Richard Moore series on American poets, there's an ambivalence here that I believe stems back from Spicer's early paranormal experience. When he was very young JS had a vision of a "murder in space." Apparently in a dream (but perhaps actually in what we would now call an experience of, yes, alien abduction[???] where is that Harvard guy who gives credence to these accounts!) Spicer saw someone killed before his eyes by strange Martian space creatures in deep space, hence (?) his later preference for s/f on the darker side of Heinlein (tho' he did like "The Green Hills of Earth")-like his erstwhile roommate Philip K. Dick. PS, in my Oppen talk I cited the "red globes" of his "Discrete Series" and called attention to the cult of Heinlein among spanking enthusiasts (Heinlein's novels startle with their hundreds of references to spanking: an obsessive, awkward, almost Bettie Page, frankness). This caused a bit of a stir. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:31:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: primo bio >Two recent poets/writers bios I've found good to excellent (& >most refreshing after the Clark/Olson disaster & the Gooch/O'Hara >cocktail chatter) are the recent Polizzotti book on Andre >Breton (Revolution of the Mind) & Edmund White's bio of Jean Genet >(which is superb indeed). > >Pierre Dear Pierre and all, I have mixed feelings about both the Tom Clark and Brad Gooch books. I read a very good biography of Sarah Orne Jewett a few weeks ago. Also, expect great things of Carolyn Burke's forthcoming life of Mina Loy which she has been working on for, gee, I can't remember how long. Ten or twelve years? -Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Re: primo bio "forgive my ignorance. could you, briefly, if you have a moment to spare, say something about how the clark bio of olson is a disaster? backchannel is okay with me unless others are into this. burt" Pierre: Frontal exposure, please. Ron Silliman clucked over it recently as well. Since I'm currently going through it for the second time, I'd welcome the explicit caveats. Larry Price ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: From one California flake about another Maria: First a comment and then some questions. I've never considered sexuality as one of the dilemmas of having a body. In fact, I've always thought of it as one of the great palpable perqs of having one. But . . . How are reproduction, mortality, sexuality "metaphysical" anxieties? Why is the dilemma of having a body connected with homosociality? Are we saying homosociality is the dilemma? (Reading Spicer now, I can't imagine his ever being in the closet. He seems never to have cared anything about the issue of who knew what.) And finally: shouldn't we trust Spicer a little more than this? To connect his poetry (however loosely) with Oppen (with his serious inflexibility about most things - for example, read Barry Watten on David Antin's take on Oppen) is at best alarming. It seems likely that for Spicer Martians had nothing to do with spaceships (OR Mars). lp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:30:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Price Subject: Ghosts in my T Dodie: I agree with you. There are ghosts and then there are ghosts. And as you note, the explanatory ghosts have more to do with the HISTORY of the work than with its afterlife. But then let me indulge in a cultural parallel: last a week a small pharmaceutical company (mainly a producer of generics) lost a court case brought against a larger one, the patent holder of AZT. Despite the argument of manifest public good, the patent was upheld (along with the price), so that we will not soon see a generic (and less expensive) AZT. lp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:05:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: primo bio In-Reply-To: <0099CDC1.6384A36E.120@admin.njit.edu> Kurt -- Clark's book is nasty, belittling, invidious -- besides containing a number of errors. The best way to get a sense of that is to read the reviews by Gerrit Lansing and Don Byrd which were published in SULFUR 29 (Fall 1991). There is also, I believe, an issue of the "Minutes of the Charles Olson Society" (edited by ralph Maud from Vancouver) -- though i can't for the life of me lay my hands on that specific issue right now. -- Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > pierre, > > forgive my ignorance. could you, briefly, if you have a moment to spare, > say something about how the clark bio of olson is a disaster? > > backchannel is okay with me unless others are into this. > > burt > > kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:15:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: primo bio Larry Price/Burt Kimmelman wrote: >"forgive my ignorance. could you, briefly, if you have a moment to spare, say >something about how the clark bio of olson is a disaster? > >backchannel is okay with me unless others are into this. > >burt" > >Pierre: > >Frontal exposure, please. Ron Silliman clucked over it recently as well. >Since I'm currently going through it for the second time, I'd welcome the >explicit caveats. > >Larry Price You-all might be interested in reading the "Minutes of the Charles Olson Society" (here's the address-1104 Maple Street, Vancouver, BC V6J 3R6, Canada)-which gives through its many issues a page by page listing of every time Tom Clark got something wrong-a fascinating exercise. Clark's account of Olson's visits to Ezra Pound at St. Elizabeth's, for example, make CO seem like a middle-aged man on the make, sucking up to an insane yet influential power broker. Obviously it's a relationship with great reverberations for poetic history, yet Clark makes it a late forties version of the awful Shakespeare plot in "My Own Private Idaho." I think Clark's revelations about Frances Boldereff are truly striking-whatever part she played in CO's thought-his secrecy, almost duplicity, about her, is very strange, and these revelations color the rest of the book. In general I think Clark isn't bad when writing about Olson's early career-there's a LOT of new information in the book. It's the later life that he stumbles on, but who doesn't? But then again the tone of the book is like Joe McGinnis' in "Fatal Vision," as though Clark started out by liking and admiring Olson, but the book reveals a gradual and complete hatred of his subject, and in every instance Olson is placed in an unflattering light, sometimes "unfairly." So it's not the the squeamish. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:20:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: topo gigio Jordan, I thought the Gooch bio quite bad, just flip through and read only his citations of the poetry-- he made O'Hara into a boring poet. Another book to be missed is _The Roaring Silence_, bio of Cage by Revill. Neither book gives the context &/of the work together in any useful way. Dierdre Bair's Beckett & Beauvoir books are both excellent. & Ray Monk's Wittgenstein, excellent. & Jack Chamber's Miles, best music bio I know. Still waiting for someone to write the book on Coltrane, or Duchamp, or. . . What's the opinion on these Stein bios-- any of them worthwhile? I've been through a few, but none seemed. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: topo gigio jordan: without any interest in putting down nyc writing as "cocktail chatter," i must agree that the o'hara bio was a huge compilation of trivial detail that didn't give much real insight into o'h or his poetry. when we learned, for example, that the most important thing about o'hara's u-michigan period was that the seminar-room chairs were green... i mean, what a mis-spenditure of a huge advance. research, all right, but no significant content. lists of who attended various parties are fine if they're being enumerated for some greater purpose, but... it was hard to detect an intellectual raison d'etre for this huge tome. and i'm not even one of those people that objects to sordid details about writers' lives being made public. i had no trouble w/ the comments about f's drinking. it was the superficiality of the whole that was troubling.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: From one California flake about another larry price sez: Maria: First a comment and then some questions. I've never considered sexuality as one of the dilemmas of having a body. In fact, I've always thought of it as one of the great palpable perqs of having one. md to lp: good for you. we cd all learn something from you. having a body means you die sometime, which for many of us is a philosophically and psychologically challenging concept. lp cont'd: But . . . How are reproduction, mortality, sexuality "metaphysical" anxieties? md: see above. there's a history of western philosophy, theology and psychology struggling with these (sometimes painful) concepts, events and practices. i guess for me "metaphysical" includes the physical, and also reflection on the physical. so that, for example, the reality of death in childbirth for many women until relatively recently is not only a physical problem, but also a psychological one that raises questions about, for example, the value of one's own life, what risks are "normal" to take, etc., the human dilemmas of "choice," freedom, and so on. lp: Why is the dilemma of having a body connected with homosociality? Are we saying homosociality is the dilemma? (Reading Spicer now, I can't imagine his ever being in the closet. He seems never to have cared anything about the issue of who knew what.) md: how'd the closet get into this? as far as i know, spicer was out from a fairly early age. being out doesn't solve all problems of mortality, etc. i think i was talking about the current new age angel fad anyway, not spicer. lp: And finally: shouldn't we trust Spicer a little more than this? To connect his poetry (however loosely) with Oppen (with his serious inflexibility about most things - for example, read Barry Watten on David Antin's take on Oppen) is at best alarming. It seems likely that for Spicer Martians had nothing to do with spaceships (OR Mars). md: again, i'm confused. trust spicer more than what? i was, in my post on spicer/martians, trying out a link between the space-race era in which spicer was writing and the use of extra-planetary beings as a trope for ---whatever, creativity, otherness, utopic possibilities of community or dystopic images of alienation, all of which were issues for spicer and the community he wrote in/from/to/against/for. someone else posted the oppen quote, which i found fascinating. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: primo bio i agree about white's genet bio, it's superb, a true marriage of minds; also, in spite of all the controversies raging around it, i found diane middlebrook's sexton bio to be intellectually sophisticated and narratively compelling. maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:06:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: The Mysteries of Space Revealed Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com I wish I could properly credit the author of this piece. (Piece!?! of meat?) How does it relate to Poetics? Well, would Oppen or Spicer have found it funny? daniel_bouchard@hmco.com -------------------------- Imagine if you will... the leader of the fifth alien invader force speaking to the alien commander in chief... "They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "Meat. They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "There's no doubt about it. We picked several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." "That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars." "They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines." "So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact." "They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines." "That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat." "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in the sector and they're made out of meat." "Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage." "Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take too long. Do you have any idea the life span of meat?" "Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside." "Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through." "No brain?" "Oh, there is a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat!" "So... what does the thinking?" "You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat." "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!" "Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you getting the picture?" "Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat." "Finally, Yes. They are indeed made out meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years." "So what does the meat have in mind?" "First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the universe, contact other sentients, swap ideas and information. The usual." "We're supposed to talk to meat?" "That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there? Anyone home?' That sort of thing." "They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?" "Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat." "I thought you just told me they used radio." "They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?" "Officially or unofficially?" "Both." "Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in the quadrant, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing." "I was hoping you would say that." "It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?" "I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say?" `Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?" "Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact." "So we just pretend there's no one home in the universe." "That's it." "Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you have probed? You're sure they won't remember?" "They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them." "A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream." "And we can mark this sector unoccupied." "Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?" "Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotation ago, wants to be friendly again." "They always come around." "And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the universe would be if one were all alone." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: topo gigio I don't know why everyone is putting City Poet down. I loved it. I especially liked learning that "cup of joe" means coffee. Also, I think superficial stories about poets become more interesting after they've been repeated verbatim 3 or 4 times in the same book. Seriously this time: recently I read the Ernst Pawel biography of Kafka ("The Nightmare of Reason") & loved it. Lots of historical contextualization -- a move away from the psychologizing portrait towards an understanding of Kafka's situation in German Jewish society. >jordan: without any interest in putting down nyc writing as "cocktail >chatter," i must agree that the o'hara bio was a huge compilation of trivial >detail that didn't give much real insight into o'h or his poetry. when we >learned, for example, that the most important thing about o'hara's u-michigan >period was that the seminar-room chairs were green... i mean, what a >mis-spenditure of a huge advance. research, all right, but no significant >content. lists of who attended various parties are fine if they're being >enumerated for some greater purpose, but... it was hard to detect an >intellectual raison d'etre for this huge tome. and i'm not even one of those >people that objects to sordid details about writers' lives being made public. >i had no trouble w/ the comments about f's drinking. it was the >superficiality of the whole that was troubling.--md __________________________________________________________ Issa Clubb issa@voyagerco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:56:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jms Subject: Re: topo gigio >>What's the opinion on these Stein bios-- any of them worthwhile? I've been >through a few, but none seemed. > I haven't read Wagner-Martin's _Favored Stangers_ yet although I have it beside my desk. The one from a few years ago, Souhami's _Gertrude and Alice_ does weird things like reads Stein's autobiographies without irony and too literally. I would not recommend it. The one that seems the most accurate is still James Mellow's _Charmed Circle_ It is also very dull. Juliana Spahr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:19:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Davis Subject: Re: The Mysteries of Space Revealed Comments: cc: Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM Although I don't have a copy at hand, I believe that this is "They're Made Out of Meat," a story by Terry Bisson originally published in _Omni_. Bisson is a nice guy, but he would probably not be amused at having his work passed around without his name or permission. I'd suggest buying his recent short-story collection instead. Ray ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:05:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: The Mysteries of Space Revealed Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com >Although I don't have a copy at hand, I believe that this is "They're Made >Out of Meat," a story by Terry Bisson originally published in _Omni_. >Bisson is a nice guy, but he would probably not be amused at having his >work passed around without his name or permission. I'd suggest buying his >recent short-story collection instead. Ray ______ Ray, Thanks for the information. Someone else also let me know after the post that it is Bisson's story. It arrived by e-mail without an author listed and in no way do I mean to piss Terry off. However, I am going to try and use the expression "flapping their meat" as often as possible in daily chit-chat, and I will probably not cite Mr. Bisson. Thanks too for the shopping tip. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:35:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: primo bio In-Reply-To: On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Kevin Killian wrote: > But then again the tone of the book > is like Joe McGinnis' in "Fatal Vision," as though Clark started out by > liking and admiring Olson, but the book reveals a gradual and complete > hatred of his subject, and in every instance Olson is placed in an > unflattering light, sometimes "unfairly." This was my impression of Clark too; it seems clear that Clark considers Olson to have pretty much wrecked himself later in life. This assessment is worth considering, but Clark's growing distaste for Olson becomes overwhelming at least by Black Mountain and sours his readings of the later poems. The amazing thing is that Robert Creeley wrote a blurb for the thing. My feeling is that he was snowed by the idea of the "allegory" as an examination of multiple levels of identity, multiple biographies. That at least was what he was stressed in conversation at a North Carolina reading in 1990. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:26:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: The Mysteries of Space Revealed >"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know >how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their >meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their >meat." Of course I am reminded of Catherine Clement on Maria Callas: "A tremendous pile of meat that sings for us, and is alive." --from *Opera, or the Undoing of Women* Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:33:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: primo bio >The amazing thing is that Robert Creeley wrote a blurb for the thing. My (recently acquired, unread, & now it might stay that way) copy of Clark's Olson bio also has a blurb by Dana Gioia, which I find incongruous to say the least. I have to assume he's the same as Mr. New Formalist. Was he a) striking out into new (projective) fields, or b) writing *before* being born again as the poet-critic of the abandoned middle class? __________________________________________________________ Issa Clubb issa@voyagerco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 18:13:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: The Mysteries of Space Revealed brilliant and silly! i think we've really amassed a lot of information here about space-race/spicer angels and martians --any grad students out there want to turn it into a paper and footnote us all?--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:17:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: primo bio In-Reply-To: On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Issa Clubb wrote: > My (recently acquired, unread, & now it might stay that way) copy of > Clark's Olson bio also has a blurb by Dana Gioia, which I find incongruous > to say the least. I have to assume he's the same as Mr. New Formalist. Was > he a) striking out into new (projective) fields, or b) writing *before* > being born again as the poet-critic of the abandoned middle class? Answers: a) not hardly. b) before his self-identification as the William Bennett of poetry, Gioia worked in business, for Proctor & Gamble I believe (identified on the national news tonight as *both* the makers of Olestra (tm) nonfat fat and the #1 advertiser on daytime talk shows). I have heard conflicting rumors about whether Gioia was in mergers & acquisitions or marketing. In one story, he's a classic Reagan-era corporate raider, while in the other version he's behind that really cool Hawaiian punch ad where the punch-bowl breaks through the wall. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 684-6277 There is some excitement in one corner, but most of the ghosts are merely shaking their heads. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:03:05 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Forward: public broadcasting petition (fwd) > ---------- > This is a petition to support public funding of radio, television, and the > arts. Apologies if you consider this junk mail. If you're not interested, > feel free to delete now. > If you'd like to help, add your name and pass it on to your friends and > collegues. Thanks. > > PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major > cutbacks in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce > spending costs and streamline their services, the government officials > believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a > portion of funding for something which is seen as "unworthwhile". > Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per > year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year in total. > > A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans > wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law > enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. > > Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations commitees each have 13 > subcommitees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each > subcommitee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to > have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October > 1. In the instance of the Corporation of Public Broadcasting, the bill > determines the funding for the next three years. When this issue comes up > in 1996, the funding will be determined for fiscal years 1996-1998. > > The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support > for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices > heard. Please add your name to this list if you believe in what we stand > for. This list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, > the Vice President of the United States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, > who is the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile > programs. > > If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this petition, > please send it to kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu. This way we can keep > track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone you know, > and help us to keep these programs alive. > > Thank you. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > 1. Elizabeth Weinert, student, University of Northern Colorado, Greeley, > Colorado. > 2. Nikki Marchman, student, University of Northern Colorado, Greeley, > Colorado. > 3. Laura King, Salt Lake City, Utah > 4. Mary Lambert, San Francisco, CA > 5. Sam Tucker, Seattle, WA > 6. Steve Mack, Seattle, WA > 7. Stacy Shelley, Sub Pop Records, Seattle, WA. > 8. Amy Saaed, Seattle, WA > 9. Jill Hudgins, Atlanta, GA > 10. Alex Goolsby, student, Colgate University, Hamilton, NY > 11. Aisha K. McGriff, North Carolina School of Science and Math > 12. Amy Brushwood, North Carolina School of Science and Math > 13. Mason Blackwell, student and generally great guy, The College of > William and Mary > 14. Melinda Murphy, student, St. Mary's College of Maryland > 15. Amy Raphael, student, University of Pennsylvania > 16. Nancy Adleman, student, Stanford University > 17. Paul Bodnar, student, Stanford University > 18. Kunal Bajaj, student, University of Pennsylvania > 19. Sharon Seltzer, student, University of Pennsylvania > 20. Sugirtha Vivekananthan, student, University of Pennsylvania > 21. Ann Wang, student, University of Pennsylvania > 22. Seth Resler, student, Brown University > 23. Leslie Ching, student, Brown University > 24. Sylvia Barbut, student, Carnegie Mellon University > 25. Douglas Bramel, student, Carnegie Mellon University > 26. Christopher Gaunt, student, Georgetown University > 27. Sarah Battersby, student, University of Washington > 28. Candice Mack, student, Univeristy of California at Riverside > 29. Carmen Cheung, student, Harvard University > |30. Irene Chen, student, Harvard University > 31. Anna C. Lewis, student, Harvard University > 32. Laura Brown, student, University of California at Los Angeles > 33. Kelsey Bostwick, student, Dartmouth College > 34. Farrah Russell, student, Dartmouth College > 35. Justin Carter, student, Dartmouth College > 36. Aisha Tyus , student, Dartmouth College > 37. Deborah A. Green, Student, Dartmouth College > 38. Robin Flechtner, Student, Dartmouth College > 39. Christine Kim, Student, Dartmouth College > 40. Tom Jawetz, Student, Dartmouth College > 41. Todd J. Griset, student, Dartmouth > 42. Julie E. Baker, Student, Dartmouth > 43. Andrew G. Butterworth, Student, Dartmouth College > 44. Huijung Kil, Student, Dartmouth College > 45. Benjamin Bawden, student, Dartmouth College > 46. Kyle Marchesseault, student, Dartmouth College > 47. Tom Reynolds, student, Dartmouth College > 48. Christian M. Felix, student, Dartmouth > 49. David M. Altman, student Dartmouth College > 50. Libby Reder, student, Dartmouth College > 51. Alli Brugg, student, Dartmouth College > 52. Derek Shendell, student, Dartmouth College > 53. Robert S. Huddleston, student, Dartmouth College > 54. Michelle Brattson, student, Dartmouth College > 55. Shawn Snipes, student, Dartmouth College > 56. Malia Brink, student, Dartmouth College > 57. Randall S. Poulin, student, Dartmouth College > 58. Peter Chin, student, Dartmouth Medical School > 59. Julie Ann Lee, student, University of Pennsylvania > 60. Nikki Blasberg, The Urban Institute > 61. Laura Bond, Staff, UC, Berkeley > 62. Judith Gonder, staff, UC Berkeley > 63. Andrew D. Stadler, Cupertino, CA. > 64. Jill A. Thompson, Esq., San Francisco, CA > 65. Sharon Delmendo, De La Salle University, Manila, Philippines > 66. Shelley Reid, English Department, Austin College 67. James P. Kneubuhl, student, University of Hawaii at Manoa > 68. Gabrielle Welford, Univ of Hawaii at Manoa > If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this petition, > please send it to kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu. This way we can keep > track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone you know, > and help us to keep these programs alive. > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 21:52:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: primo bio Kevin, glad to hear that Carolyn Burke's bio of Mina Loy will be out soon! On that subject, could you or anyone else out there please pass on to me Carolyn Burke's address? Thanks. Camille Martin cxmeg.jazz.ucc.uno.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:41:02 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: primo bio In-Reply-To: Why shouldn't a "new formalist" like the Clark bio of Olson? I didn't think it was that terrible, though I found the tone kind of incongruous, as though he was trying to keep a straight face. It's too bad that Ed Sanders wasn't the one to write what might be the only Olson bio this millenium. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 23:53:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Nowak Subject: Micro 'Zine/Press Showcase & Forum As I've several e-messages on this in recent days, here's the scoop for all interested: Micro 'Zine/Press Poetry Showcase & Forum Saturday, February 10th, 1996 / 11:00am-3:00pm College of St. Catherine-Minneapolis Over two dozen of the regions "experimental" poetrydical forms publishers have been invited to display their recent publications. During the forum, which begins at 12:30, editors will discuss the regional micro 'zine/press scene, talk about their experiences as editors, and suggest ways in which community- building activities can be pursued. For more info. email: manowak@alex.stkate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:03:00 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Akitoshi Nagahata Subject: Re: elitism >> Anybody on the list from/in Japan who can speak to this figure of four to >> eight percent of the population writing poetry? And then, on the relative >> elitisms in poetry there--that is, do "serious" poets--whatever those >> are--watch poetry shows? Read the poetry columns? Or is the distinction >> between "serious" and "other" configured as something more like >> "accomplished" and "novice"? > >I'm in Japan but that statistic makes little >sense to me. What does writing poetry mean-- >culturally determined, I suspect. No solace >there... > >Don't know, Akitoshi Nagahata, if you're around >maybe you could comment more helpfully. > >best, John Geraets > Dear John: I'm not sure about that, not being an expert on the Japanese poetry. But I would imagine a good proportion of the Japanese who write poetry write traditional formal poetry--tanka, haiku and others--not lineated verse which is called here "gendai-shi" or "modern poetry." Because of its brevity and formal simplicity, tanka or haiku looks to be easier to make than free verse, and hence its popularity, I guess. There are programs on the education channel for those who compose tanka or haiku poems ("t.v. shows about Japanese poetry"?); the viewers send their poems to the instructors who pick out some and revise them--something like a creative writing course on T.V. There are daily columns about poetry on the front page of newspapers, normally short commentary on one tanka or haiku poem. And in the Sunday edition a whole page is devoted to a bit longer columns about poetry as well as sections for contributions from the readers. The columns are written by the "accomplished" poets who write as chief members of the coterie magazines and teach "novices." I doubt that they watch the T.V. tanka/haiku programs but they would probably read the newspaper columns about poetry because they are in newspapers and short. As far as I know, there are no T.V. classes for so-called "modern poetry." It's difficult to decide whether or not the accomplished tanka/haiku poets are elite. They can be medical doctors, university professors, company executives, etc., but there are also shop clerks, farmers and housewives whose poems get published and reviewed. So one can't generalize them as social elite. There are a number of schools of haiku and tanka, and some of them are very conventional and some aren't. Tanka, especially, has a really long history, and although there are a few radical tanka poets, it's often associated with the emperor system--you can read examples in the Web version of _Ogura Hyakunin Isshu_ in the "Japanese Text Initiative" at University of Virginia and University of Pittsburgh (URL: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/japanese/index.html)--and many people still consider it to be the national poetic form. The postwar "modern poets"--especially the "Waste Land" School--made great efforts to deny all kinds of poetry that can be associated with tanka for this reason. It should be pointed out too that there was a certain period of time in the past (during the medeival times) when some aristocrats tried to keep away from the populace what they thought of as the secret of composition. Tanka or haiku, which is fairly easy to make and is thus open to a wide variety of population, can of course attain a high level of sophistication and/or difficulty, and if the poems get difficult, the poet who composes them might be subject to a charge of estrangement of the populace. Whether or not the practitioner is social elite (or intellectual elite), and irrespective of the intention of the poet, it seems to me that sophisticated or difficult poetry tends to be regarded here as elite literature and sometimes elitist, probably because of the relative imperviousness to the untrained readers. Personally, though, I think sophistication is quite an important element in poetry writing. Best. Akitoshi Nagahata Facutly of Language and Culture Nagoya University e43479a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 03:04:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: topo gigio ('Salright?) I think every biographer runs the risk that whatever narrative frame they put over their subject will feel violative to any who actually knew the subject (consider, for example, tho it's a bio of a place more than a person, the carping that went on at the time about Martin Duberman's Black Mountain). I haven't read the Gooch yet (just picked it up remaindered) but plan to give it a fair hearing later this year. An old acquaintance, Ilene Philipson, wrote a biography of Ethel Rosenberg a few years back in which (1) she admitted that the evidence suggested that Julius was clearly up to something, whether or not it qualified as being central to the atom spy plot and (2) speculated about why a mother would "abandon" her children by going to her execution when she could have saved herself by speaking up about point #1. Nowhere in the book was there any suggestion that point (1) above justified being murdered by the state. I know that Ilene thought of her book as a sympathetic portrait and I don't think she was at all prepared for the backlash that flew out of the still pretty close-knit veterans of the Rosenberg Defense and the Rosenberg's sons, Michael and Robby. Biography of those about whom others can still testify seems to me an impossible task. In Clark's case, the great sin is its total disinterestedness in the poetry of Olson, even though presumably it was the occasion for writing the bio in the first place. There's an awful lot of psychological projection here as well (Clark seems to identify with the "poet as monster" theme both here and in his work on Celine). The fundamental gimmick of the book is Clark's discovery of Olson's affair in the early 1950s: he then accounts for everything Olson wrote during that fertile period by relating it to this one detail. The theme of allegory (much overstated in its importance to Olson at least for my reading) isn't carried forward very well. As an idea it comes and goes, invoked once in awhile and then just dropped for the next twenty pages. Sort of like lumps in your oatmeal. Some of the book is so poorly stitched together that I wonder seriously if Clark himself wrote all of it. At one point the UC Press was supposed to issue this, so its appearance from Norton suggests some sort of turbulent history. The sad thing is that it's unlikely that we will have another attempt at a bio any time soon. A book like this really blocks others. As it is, several of the sources Clark used have passed away in recent years. For more positive examples of biography as genre, what about Barbara Guest's work on HD? Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:07:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: oh daddy who can stand it While we're in a remote suburb of O'Hara, would it be okay if I went back and asked Hank Lazer about the (ugh!) he put next to the word "personal" in a post not too long ago? I thought at the time I knew what it meant but I keep seeing it in these dreams I have of flying by Jupiter right outside the module and fluttering Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:32:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Scholars (junior and/or senior) needed to write essays for the Encyclopedia of Jewish-American Poets and Playwrights. One of the two editors, Mike TAub, has asked me to pass on the following list of writers' names to you in the hoohope that some of you may wish to take Taub up on this. Taub's e-mail address isMITAUB@vaxsar.vassar.edu. - Burt Kimmelman From: MX%"MITAUB@vaxsar.vassar.edu" 24-JAN-1996 21:29:34.00 To: MX%"kimmelman@admin.njit.edu" CC: Subj: Dear Burt, Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:55:24 -0400 (EDT) From: MITAUB@vaxsar.vassar.edu Subject: Dear Burt, To: kimmelman@admin.njit.edu X-VMS-To: IN%"kimmelman@admin.njit.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT How are you? I hoe the snow didn't hampe your activities too much? I thought you should use your comm. sjkills to get word out that these are still open: Burnshaw, M. Bell, Atlas, David Lehman, Aaron Fgel, Ann Lauteraach, Cynthia McDonals, Lorine Niedeceer, Gail Mazur, Carl Rokosi, Vincent Katz.(Sorryff r typos) These are all poets. Your help is much appreciated. Thanksaand Happy belated New Year! Michael ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 22:44:26 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: elitism In-Reply-To: <199601250603.PAA26623@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp> Further to Nagahata-san's comments on widespread poetry writing in Japan, and its relationship to elitism (and also to the original post which came off of a New York Times piece on poetry in Japan), there is a long Japanese tradition of accumulating cultural capital through skill at various cultural pursuits, with teachers, schools, and intensely social practice. I think it ceased to be exclusively "elite" practice (in the sense of courtly activity) and became generally middle-class by the 17th century. the NY Times article referred to a best-selling book of tanka from several years ago, unnanmed, which was probably the "Sarada kinenbi" (Salad Anniversary) which was controversial for using western loan words and other very contempory vocabulary in the tanka (34 syllable) form, which was serious genre mixing and sort of violated the proprieties. it was also interesting for bringing a certain voice into Japanese poetry that had not existed before, something like the Anne Waldman voice in Giant Night or Baby Breakdown, and it was controversial because of that sensibility as well. the voice of the Office Lady. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:54:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Willa Jarnagin Subject: Re: The Mysteries of Space Revealed In-Reply-To: <960124173213_126105127@emout04.mail.aol.com> > brilliant and silly! i think we've really amassed a lot of information here > about space-race/spicer angels and martians --any grad students out there > want to turn it into a paper and footnote us all?--md No grad students, just us aliens and sentient chickens. Willa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:52:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: bio/revision Issa, For an odd intertext to Gioia's interest in Olson/Clark, check out (i.e. don't pay for!) Amy Clampitt's _The Kingfisher_ which, yes, has a couple of epigraphs from _Call Me Ishmael_ as I remember. Oh, does anybody know of good recent work on revision? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Japan (Toshiro Yamizaki) Thanks for the info. on JAPAN.... Curious about more of these "Wasteland" poets... Takahashi I guess is one. But does anybody on this list (whether Japanese or other) know anything about TOSHIRO YAMAZAKI (hopefully spelled right)--- There was a poem of his in an old CALIBAN (pre #10) called something like "I'm Sending Lautreamont To America" which was really interesting I thought--but I was never able to find more by him (and the ed. of Caliban never answered my letter and gave me the address of the poet-- I *HATE* when editors don't do that...and when (oh but that's another story0...chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:33:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: I've been asked to forward this to the list. - BK From: ADMIN::ROTHENBERG 25-JAN-1996 12:00:18.26 To: KIMMELMAN CC: Subj: From: ADMIN::SABINE 5-JAN-1996 10:17:55.86 To: ROTHENBERG CC: Subj: tn event From: ADMIN::ROTHENBERG 3-JAN-1996 11:00:42.79 To: SABINE CC: Subj: spread this around **************************************** IS NATURE DEAD? IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU READ. **************************************** Celebrate the Launching of TERRA NOVA: NATURE & CULTURE The Literary Magazine of the New Environmentalism at The Learning Alliance 324 Lafayette Street, NYC January 26th and 27th, 1996 Today, there is a need to understand the human relationship to nature in a bold and different way. Terra Nova is the journal of this new culture. It is not one-sided, but diverse and exploratory. It is not sentimental or starry-eyed, but accepts nature in all its confusion and complexity. It does not spurn technology, but looks for creative visions of the future. Terra Nova digs into the mix between the urbane and the wild with contributions from philosophy, literature, history, anthropology, science, environmental studies, politics, activism and the arts. A wide-ranging mix of essays, reportage, interviews, fiction, poetry, photography, and all forms of cultural reflection on the human relationship to nature. By dissolving the borders between the academic and the literary, Terra Nova will show that serious discussion of environmental issues can be found in the most surprising places. Terra Nova is for anyone interested in the relationship between nature and culture. Is that you? We hope to see you there. --David Rothenberg, editor. RToo many people labor under the misconception that our environmental crisis is a problem of techonology. The material in Terra Nova reminds us that itUs a problem of the human spirit, and that its solutions will have as much to do with the power of the soul as with solar power.S Bill McKibben RTerra Nova promises to make an important contribution to the most critical descisions facing humanity today.S Peter Matthiessen Friday January 26th, 8 pm-10pm Readings from our first issues. Party to Follow! Editor David Rothenberg introduces the whole project. Charles Bowden rhapsodizes the rise and fall of the American desert. Michael Fox on respect for the Earth and communal good. David Abram reading from The Spell of the Sensuous. Poetry by Ben Lieberman, Arthur Solway. Claire Pentecost playing animal charades. Amanda Means photogramming the inside of flowers. Melissa Nelson on Native American views of nature. John P. OUGrady on the disappearance of D.B. Cooper. Music with David Rothenberg, Glen Moore, and Glen Velez. David Appelbaum reading from Everyday Spirits. Georgia Marsh on painting beyond nature. Saturday, January 27th, 10am-4pm Workshops and panel discussions around the following themes: ART Adam David Clayman (photographer), Claire Pentecost (artist, writer), Arthur Solway (poet, art critic), Tim Druckrey (photo critic, curator) How can art comment on the relationship between humanity and nature without becoming propoganda? How can we judge the quality of art whose subject is our relationship with nature? What natural images have we seen too much of, and what have we seen too little of? PUBLISHING Emerson Blake (Orion Magazine), Steve Chase (South End Press), Jim Motovalli (E Magazine), Charles Bowden (writer), Sabine Hrechdakian (Terra Nova), David Applebaum (Parabola) Who is publishing environmental thought these days? Do they realize it? Does it sell? Should it? How should nature/culture writing be better marketed? Does the public care? EDUCATION Mitch Thomashow (Antioch New England), Melissa Nelson (UC Davis), John Clark, (Loyola New Orleans), Wendy Brawer (designer, creator of NYC GreenMap), Amy Knisley (Terra Nova) Should environmental ideas seep into the entire curriculum? What do you do with these degrees once you're done? Where should you go to get one? MUSIC AND MAGIC David Rothenberg (clarinet), Michael Fox (didjeridu), Glen Moore (bass), David Abram (magic) Music seems less representational than other arts, so it is often left out of the environmentalist fray, or relegated to flute and birdsong atmospherics. Is there more that music can do? Admission is sliding scale, pay what you can based on income: Friday: $5-$15, Saturday: $25-$45 For information on the Event call: Brian Donoghue, The Learning Alliance, 324 Lafayette Street New York, NY 10012 phone 212 226 7171 e-mail: alliance@blythe.org subway: take 6 to Bleecker St. or B, D, F, Q to Broadway-Lafayette. For information on TERRA NOVA e-mail: rothenberg@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 19:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: boys in space In-Reply-To: Message of 01/24/96 at 04:21:24 from MDamon9999@AOL.COM Maria D, is there a way I could get a look at your piece on angels? is it going to appear somewhere? I've been working on angels & aliens too, but kind of relegated the whole thing to the backburner when popular angelology reached cri tical mass & overwhelmed by efforts to stay abreast of it. I liked very much your material on angels & Duncan/Spicer nexus in "Dark End of the Street," & am curious where you have gone with it since then. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:45:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: xxx/event: one In-Reply-To: xxx/event: one they took over the campus at arizona state university this week 75,000 people coming for the supperbowl corporate hospitality suites rise over the sacred parking lots worshiped by high and low alike classes were cancelled for two days closed the library early locked the doors completely to accomodate stuporsunday official souvenir vendor distribution sites for all this splurf-fest capital guzzle feed-trough greenback shower of the sports season a soft-drink company (who will remain anonymous so as not to endorse this product unwittingly) will throw a party for students with hot dogs for sale a local hemp spokesman says he will sell dope at the scupperbog the economic wind fall for tempe phoenix arizona will be tremendous according to the saturation coverage by the arizona republic(an) for the potential to "cash-in" on the xxx/event arizona state university is "bloated and inefficient" according to a republican govenor whos filed for bankruptcy budget cuts will likely lead to tuition raises while the other two state schools will suffer no such cutbacks the stutterbloff is on more peoples minds than the next goverment shut-down arizona state university students marched down the main strip of tempe protesting the ironies of this money-gozzling fleet-ditch diving city . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:56:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: Re: Forward: public broadcasting petition (fwd) In-Reply-To: On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > ---------- > > This is a petition to support public funding of radio, television, and the > > arts. Apologies if you consider this junk mail. If you're not interested, > > feel free to delete now. > > If you'd like to help, add your name and pass it on to your friends and > > collegues. Thanks. > > > > PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major > > cutbacks in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce > > spending costs and streamline their services, the government officials > > believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a > > portion of funding for something which is seen as "unworthwhile". > > Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per > > year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year in total. > > > > A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans > > wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law > > enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. > > > > Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations commitees each have 13 > > subcommitees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each > > subcommitee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to > > have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October > > 1. In the instance of the Corporation of Public Broadcasting, the bill > > determines the funding for the next three years. When this issue comes up > > in 1996, the funding will be determined for fiscal years 1996-1998. > > > > The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support > > for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices > > heard. Please add your name to this list if you believe in what we stand > > for. This list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, > > the Vice President of the United States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, > > who is the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile > > programs. > > > > If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this petition, > > please send it to kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu. This way we can keep > > track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone you know, > > and help us to keep these programs alive. > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > 1. Elizabeth Weinert, student, University of Northern Colorado, Greeley, > > Colorado. > > 2. Nikki Marchman, student, University of Northern Colorado, Greeley, > > Colorado. > > 3. Laura King, Salt Lake City, Utah > > 4. Mary Lambert, San Francisco, CA > > 5. Sam Tucker, Seattle, WA > > 6. Steve Mack, Seattle, WA > > 7. Stacy Shelley, Sub Pop Records, Seattle, WA. > > 8. Amy Saaed, Seattle, WA > > 9. Jill Hudgins, Atlanta, GA > > 10. Alex Goolsby, student, Colgate University, Hamilton, NY > >