========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 11:39:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak >I dont think anyone swears better than do the Australians. I like it >when they call someone (even me) a "pisswit." Dear George You are a pisswit! Feeling better. Actually that's the first time I've ever used pisswit. I prefer scumbag. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 19:14:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: Favorite swears In-Reply-To: My Dad spent a bit of time in Monk's Corner, South Carolina and uses these great phrases like "Kiss my rabid dog" and "Why you smilin like a wide eyed chessy cat?" He also lived in Venezuala for seven years and pours out these great spanish curses, but I never know what exactly he's saying so I'll keep them to myself. I wouldm't want to offend anyone. But man, Spanish curses are beautiful. Oh yeah and some of the best lines from mOvies are "Why don't you go light your tampon on fire, and blow your box apart, cause that's the only bang you'll ever get." The Adventures of Prisilla Queen of the Desert "OUr love is God, let's go get a slushie" and "Fuck me gently with a Chainsaw." Heathers Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:27:32 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <199508150126.SAA22551@fraser.sfu.ca> NO, George, I meant that Mitchell caught Ozzie's fly ball, Ozzie being a member of the Cardinals. Susan On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > Nope, Ozzie Smith never played for the Giants. But he did play in > calif., for the Padres. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 22:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Shedding the Lurker Skin tom taylor writes: > post language post modern > hopefully post apocalypse (we are in it). yes --did u know that when robert duncan was adopted by the symmeses, they had an astrological chart drawn up for him that said, among other things, that he would witness the end of his own civilization during his lifetime? so the apocalypse must've happened before march 1988.--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 22:43:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? what i wanna know is, is lindz a man or woman? is gwyn a man or woman? are cris cheek and chris scheil men and/or women? why do i wanna know? i dunno!--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:59:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: political song for michael jackson to sing I get embarrassed whenever I try to change anyone's opinion. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 21:10:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? In-Reply-To: <303017de0c7c002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > what i wanna know is, is lindz a man or woman? is gwyn a man or woman? are > cris cheek and chris scheil men and/or women? why do i wanna know? i dunno!--md > It's kinda cool not knowing what someone is gender wise. But I always assumed that I pretty well betrayed myself by my responses and my language as being young and female. Lindz is short for Lindsey Michelle Williamson. If you're Canadian you pronounce it like Bowering "Lindzed" if you're from south of the border it's "Lindzee", but my friends call me "Lins", rhymes with "Fins". Some interesting variations that have emerged are Lindzeloo-where-are you?, Lindzerella (when I'm grumpy), Lindzard ( when I'm being weird) Findzee ( a sign of affection), and Fuckhead (specially reserved for when I'm being an idiot). Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 00:13:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Beaudoin Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" When I lookt up, George Bowering had writ large upon my screen: >Has someone explained what AWP means? >I thought maybe Angry White Poets. Nah. >Anne Waldman People? Probly not. August's weary puddle... /d ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. David Beaudouin in cybercomm@charm.net Baltimore, Maryland tropos@charm.net hon! vox/fax: 410.467.0600 ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 00:48:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Beaudoin Subject: Re: your mail When I lookt up, George Bowering had writ large upon my screene: >This is not fair! Some sneaky bastards are giving innocuous titles >such as "Your mail" to rengas! How can an honest person delete them >without looking if they're going to pretend to be something other >than renga? George, it's renganomics: if everything's in the poem, the poem is everywhere. /d, stillcranky ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. David Beaudouin in cybercomm@charm.net Baltimore, Maryland tropos@charm.net hon! vox/fax: 410.467.0600 ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:05:03 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: you are male, g.b. Leaving the bat faster than I came to the plate, I says to the screwball (wiseballs know everything, shrewdballs everybody): > Hey, Charlie, what the hell were in those books? > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > The caravan of windows to what they flee > > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > (inspection > > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > kook!" > > Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > warehouse, curls > > no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the > > dry cleaners > > having recovered from the chemicals of deadlines drop stitched > > into > > the ball Kevin Mitchell bare > > handed. Baseball sold > > out. cash stricken striked. > > Would that as a poet I had > > the chance to do something like > > > > grace the outfield, hands bare > > from ringing, washing scales > > of passion's conformity never > > minding a green surface, far > > cry from eternity, kitchen table > > > > bleached down, a firecracker > > cold as the buckles on my sandals > > as the wesleyans come in the room > > and hang up their robes and go > > down to the fellowship hall > > > > the garcia posological convention already underway > > platform sonneteers > > reminisce those hash oil crisis years > > when every squib seemed damp & colon slack: > > get real, ya doofuses, the Blob is back > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 01:35:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? In-Reply-To: <303017de0c7c002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > what i wanna know is, is lindz a man or woman? is gwyn a man or woman? are > cris cheek and chris scheil men and/or women? why do i wanna know? i dunno!-- md > Male, all too male. My wife says that excessive testosterone is related to anabolic karma debt, which explains my irrational love of sauerkraut, Morton Feldman, & my inexplicable temporary obsessions (appearing this week: Ankoku Buto, Caspar David Friedrich, De Sica films). Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:42:48 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Chook chhoks are chickens. They are in my order of merit: Nicolas Le Poussin and Foghorn Leghorn Chicken Little a distant third Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 03:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Re: furnished, remember?/no renga In-Reply-To: <199508132359.QAA10217@fraser.sfu.ca> My stuff's in a bunch of straight-faced boxes and I'm about to mail my cats and drive x-c from NYC to Utah, where I expect to be camped for some time (at the U of U).... So.... 1) Can anyone recommend anything poetic to see, besides that damn giant ball of twine? I'll be looping south through West Virginia (so I can see the Blue Ridge Mountains for real, instead of just in the Joan Baez song!) then heading west through St Louis etc. (etc., etc.). -and- 2) Is anyone from Utah out there? Backchannel anecdotes are totally welcome. I already reread the Padgett-Berrigan big travel dialogues. If anyone's going to be passing through Salt Lake City, well, mi spare futon es su chrashpad. Be back soon under cover of new institutional alias. (Am I mistaken, or has the rengawave subsided?!) ---Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 20:50:11 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Rejected posting to POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (fwd) manners poetiquette styles of address currents of concern bad language language all these I learned lately on the poetics list poetry doesn't propagate convictions as effectively as expedients listed who said it's like a bar (and it's usually happy hour?) Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 08:00:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Larkin fucks again In-Reply-To: <01HU1FRNI6A08WWYU3@ALBNYVMS.BITNET> On Sun, 13 Aug 1995, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Dear David kellogg--for one who has a quote from THOMAS KINSELLA > (gag) I'm REAL CURIOUS why you'd call Larkin assinine--isn't that > kinda like the little fish calling the big fish "poison" (if you're > i mean you'll pardon my french"------anne onimous.... I meant personally asinine. Kinsella, from my limited knowledge of him personally, keeps his animuses in reserve. If you're referring to the poetry: De gustibus. So Kinsella makes you gag -- IMO, he's the best poet in Ireland. Which only means I like him the most. Poison, hmm -- "the other's poison"? -- if I read you right, you gag not only at Kinsella, but at others' liking him....? Let's all correct each other's tastes. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 08:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? In-Reply-To: <303017de0c7c002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Gwyn is a woman whose parents knew they had some Welsh ancestry but had not read _How Green Was My Valley_ so didn't know it was a boy's name, unmitigated by any feathery suffix. It's like being named "Mike." It's kind of funny--at least the people who assume I'm a man spell the name right, as opposed to clerks and secretaries who know I'm a woman and therefore think it must be a typo for "Gwen." g. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:25:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Larkin fucks again Ira Lightman asks: Why either Larkin or Language Poetry? Why not both? Ira, I couldn't agree more. I happen to love some of Larkin (so tar and feather me). "Wretched" was meant as a term of endearment--what's a little wretchedness between friends? Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 07:34:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Seattle readings - Bumbershoot Here's a list of readers at the upcoming Bumbershoot, Seattle's annual arts festival. It may not be worth a special trip (It's no BlaserCon), but there are still plenty of some of you folks in the area may want to come check it out. Bumbershoot is a twenty-five year-old nightmare of a festival, held over Labor Day Weekend (which, I should explain, for the benefit of the many Canadian folks on this list if for no one else, since they're close enough to consider coming down, is the SAME weekend as Labour Day Weekend). There are rock bands, dance performances, theater, visual art exhibitions, a book fair, food &/or craft booths, etc. all on the site of the 1962 World's Fair. (Admission to the Space Needle is extra.) It's like a very crowded county fair with (some) arty trappings, and little livestock. Anyway, this year's lierary readings include: Friday: Sam Hamill, William Pitt Root. Marilyn Stablein, Craig Van Riper, Sharon Doubiago, Ed Sanders, Diane DiPrima. Saturday: Sara Menafee, Jack Hirschman, Marnie Mueller. Robert Schuster, Joe Reiner, Sibyl James, Alan Chong Lau, Deborah Woodward, Bart Baxter, Rajaa Gharbi, David Scully. Sunday: Natalie Jacobson, Emily White, Willie Smith, Jim Carroll, Patti Smith. Monday: Nico Vassilakis, Tom Malone, Robert Mittenthal, Joseph Keppler, Lisa Robertson, Charles Bernstein. Roberto Valenza, Jane Taini, Mixhael Hureaux, Martha Linehan, Marion Kimes. & the readings all you mystery fans have waiting for, Steve Greenleaf, Mary Daheim, J A Jance, Ann Rule. So if you're planning to come hear all those mystery writers on Monday, why not make a day of it & stop by the afternoon "show" too. You'll be glad you did. Also, Seattle reading-wise, starting in late September, there'll be an ongoing, monthly series of readings which I'll post more about in another week or so. The name of the series will remain, at least for now, Subtext, so there's some continuity with the series' that some of you know a little about, but there's now a larger group of people involved to keep it going steadily over the year. There'll also be some sort of website with writing by past present & future readers in various Subtext events. Oh boy, huh? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 07:34:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak >When George Stanley came back from his stretch in the army, he kept >using what I took to be a southern expression" "Well, dog bite my >pecker!" George - By "southern expression" I assume you mean from the US. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:18:39 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? Sorry to use the list in this way, but Chris Schiel I can't get through to your e-mail address! Can you backchannel me about the Rodefer books you want, and if you wanna swap for Carla Harryman's Animal Interests, or Lyn Hejinian's My Life (ie, if you've got these...) A fellow Morton Feldman fan, Ira I.LIGHTMAN@UEA.AC.UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 10:32:59 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Taylor Organization: PSU Cramer Hall Subject: Re: Shedding the Lurker Skin maybe it was always apocalypse; my own 1988 was fairly as bad as the others, years, that is, though my sense of its continuing may be an extension of my own psychotic episode which began somewhere around birth. But we do have postapocalyptic visions, say, in those moments between sentences, or when the toast is burnt, or when others tell us about theirs. all best ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 14:32:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Gloucester's Olson ---------------------------------------------------------------- | | | The Charles Olson Festival | | | | Honoring the Life and Work of Charles Olson: | | Poet, Teacher, scholar & Community Activist | | | | August 12, 1995 | | | | Gloucester City Hall, Gloucester, Mass. | | | ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- A Sketch -- by Loss Pequen~o Glazier Note: I missed portions of some of these events since I also spent time talking with people and taking photos. If anyone else who attended wants to e-mail me directly any corrections, I'd be grateful. (By the way, it is my intention to create a photographic exhibit on a Web page at the EPC called "Gloucester's Olson" from these photos. Announcement forthcoming...) ----------------------------------------------------------------- i. THIS FESTIVAL, which seemed to me to be under-advertised, certainly had no lack of attendance. The grand meeting room of the Gloucester City Hall was packed--main floor to balcony--despite nearly unbearable heat (and David McArdle pointed out that the heat was not inappropriate: Olson himself had stood in this same room to argue for the preservation of Gloucester on some equally sultry nights). Though many of the attendees had travelled some distance to the conference--getting there however possible--what struck me most about this one was its local presence. Many of the persons attending were people from the community, many of them older; my thought was that there was at least a 50% attendance by the local community, probably considerably more. Some of these people I spoke to had shown up because they remembered Olson or they had seen the Festival announced in the local paper. One fisherman I spoke to just felt it was a kind of necessary civic act. Another woman came because "my son used to play with Charlie's son." Another man, dressed in work clothes and entering the hall just as Gerrit Lansing was reading from Olson's letters to _The Gloucester Daily Times_ (Ten Pound Island) would say no more, when I asked, than, "It's respects I have to pay." ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1. MODEST IN SCALE BUT GRAND in sentiment, qualities of words, and the vista of Gloucester harbor from the stairway windows of City Hall, the Charles Olson Festival consisted of three events in one day to celebrate Olson's life and work twenty-five years after his death: an afternoon panel discussion, a reception at the library across the street, and a reading of Olson's works the same night. The panel, consisting of Robert Creeley, Vincent Ferrini, Hettie Jones, Jean Kaiser, Ingeborg Lauterstein, Edward Sanders and ably and enthusiastically moderated by Peter Anastas, undertook a number of appreciative recollections and questions in the spirit of a homage. The panelists all knew Olson personally, whether as student, friend, or peer. Following an opening welcome by David McArdle, director of the Gloucester library (a place where being "the librarian" resonates more than in most places), questions such as the panelists' impressions upon first meeting Olson, thoughts about his work as a teacher, activist, and political poet were entertained, with Anastas (who cited Olson's advice, "Just live, the writing will take care of itself" as having been crucial to him personally) raising questions and querying panelists one by one. Creeley, generously offering much thoughtful information, spoke eloquently on many issues. Given his extensive written contact with Olson and the number of Olson's works he has edited, his insights added a specific literary and personal grounding to the event. One important issue raised by the panel was the context of Olson as an activist. Ed Sanders, given his own very relevant activities in this area, was the first to elaborate on this issue. Creeley addressed the vast imagination of Olson's civic commitment (whether or not this could be considered "political" poetry was not investigated at length by the panel), noting Olson's distinction between "epicene poets--poets who do not enter the society" and the kind of poetic Olson engaged in Gloucester. Vincent Ferrini, wearing a broad-brimmed hat and dark glasses, provided numerous engaging comments, quirky at times, opinionated, and a poem written for the occasion. He also noted good-naturedly his contention with Olson about "who had Gloucester" for poetry. Hettie Jones was warm, kind, and provided personal and valuable reflections about Olson and his engagement with _Yugen_ (a distinctly supportive little magazine--with Hettie providing a crucial role--for Olson when most valuable to him). And size, yes, about Olson's size. (The best comment on this point was Ferrini's, who stated quite succinctly, "he lived his body as a poem".) Ingeborg Lauterstein, a successful novelist who started out as an artist at Black Mountain until she became one of Olson's students, and Jean Kaiser, the sister of Olson's late wife, Betty, both provided important details and recollections about Olson. Ed Sanders, who seemed hesitant at times about such a panel format, never lacked in eloquence or opinion when prompted. Somewhat thorny, though bypassed for the most part, was Olson's relation to women. Of course the context was personal here in large part, and in this regard, women on the panel spoke from their own interactions with Olson. The point probably was not any resolution but some tangible public fact. (It was similar when the issue of Olson's "readability" came up, especially given the local character of his work. It was a question I had also asked of some Gloucester residents. Those that had tried had not had much success.) What counted, in terms of the festival, were the contributions that Olson made. Though many of the ecologically important locations Olson argued for have now been paved over or filled in and covered with condos, his efforts were specific; he intensively argued issues crucial to Gloucester. Gloucester was his polis and he lived his commitment to it, both in writing and in action. The panel served to commemorate a remarkable contribution to this commitment. In Ed Sander's words, "He was imperfect but he was generous". It's safe to say, I think, that almost everyone there, panelists and audience (local and visiting), were motivated by that sense of generosity as detailed in the panel. The question period was an event in itself and consisted of a number of unanticipated spontaneous individual testimonials about other personal (and life-changing) encounters with Olson. The panel was followed by a reception at the library and included some film footage of Olson and greetings from the city by the Mayor, Bruce H. Tobey. (This was an event I was unable to attend.) ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2. THE HEAT ONLY SEEMED TO INTENSIFY BY EVENING but the main floor and balcony of City Hall were full again. The evening event, introduced by Schuyler Hoffman, was a reading of works by and about Olson, delivered by Gerrit Lansing, Hettie Jones, Robert Creeley, and Edward Sanders. Lansing read from Olson's letters to the _Gloucester Daily Times_, reflecting on Olson's method of working: that he might start writing a letter and it would turn into a poem, and end up an essay (or something to that effect). Indeed, the letters read by Lansing were so intensely poetic at times, they must be considered part of Olson's poetic oeuvre. Hettie Jones read sections from her memoirs reflecting on Olson's visit to her (and the then LeRoi Jones) and their household in New York. Her warm and deeply personal account of the visit included interesting observations about her production labors in trying to prepare Olson's manuscripts for _Yugen_. Creeley read some of Olson's work he had selected for Olson's _Selected Poems_ (California) with great acumen and feeling. With both Lansing and Creeley's readings, what was most emphasized were the words themselves, Olson's words, and in those cases there was a particular pleasure in hearing them in the venue of the Gloucester City Hall. Ed Sanders concluded the evening with his own compositions, poems by Olson set to music by Sanders. Plucking a stringed instrument, the arrangement alternated between sections of sung text, reminiscent to me of Ginsberg doing Blake (and in fact I believe it was Sanders who made a point of placing Olson's work on a scale with Blake's) and brief interludes or bridges of spoken words. This careful interpretation provided an apt and festive conclusion to what was perhaps the most articulate segment of the Festival, the word itself. A word still there. ----------------------------------------------------------------- 3. BACK OUTSIDE IN THE NIGHT, a few parting words, then groups of attendees began to disperse. Mostly to cars or just in directions that seemed natural for them. This was my first visit to Gloucester and as such continually offered a new sight around every literal corner. In fact, I had never even been to New England before. The event seemed unusual compared to a lot of literary events because of its strength of location and the people who lived there. And of course, for them, once it was over, they went home. Gloucester was home. For me, any direction would do--but I walked towards the harbor. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:53:33 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: West Coast Line George Bowering: Address, cost for current issue of West Coast Line? I'd like to get a copy. Am especially interested in the bpNichol material (having read all of the Martyrology this summer). Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 17:21:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Gorton's Gloucester (supplement to Loss) Re part two, the library: Wild blueberries from Dogtown in a bowl by the defunct card catalogs. Shrimp cocktail (gone after seven minutes) behind a cooler of coke and pepsi. Finger sandwiches of tuna and crab. No one seemed to know exactly where the film was. The conversation seemed local, convivial. Saintsbury's history of English Prosody can be requested by interlibrary loan from Danvers. Lynn Swigart's photographs of Gloucester scenes were propped around. (Important to remember how dominated by Gorton's Gloucester is. A contingent of JHS students were washing cars for free in the drive in front.) Re part one, the panel in the lyceum: Robert Creeley would throw his hands and smile, his mouth open. He was totally cogent. Ed Sanders stared down as he answered. He remarked that he had a sort of "caper" relationship with Olson. Jean Kaiser was typed as the tough who talked back to Olson; the librarian at Buffalo who refused Fuck You a Magazine of the Arts space on the shelves was also called the one person who stood up to Olson. Vincent Ferrini's poem about Olson met warm applause. Hettie Jones and Ingeborg Lauterstein characterized Olson as extremely supportive. Peter Anastos smiled energetically and kept the panel moving. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 14:40:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Re: Gloucester's Olson In-Reply-To: <199508151832.OAA12749@orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Loss Glazier" at Aug 15, 95 02:32:56 pm Thanks, Loss. I'd like to have been there. Were the panels or readings recorded? if so, who would be the person to ask about getting a copy of the recordings? Charles Watts ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:02:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Curt Anderson Subject: Re: Favorite swears, almost Regarding favorite movie lines, mine comes from the great Peter O'Toole movie, The Ruling Class, in which O'Toole plays an insane Earl who thinks he's Jesus Christ. When his relatives ask him why he thinks he's God, the O'Toole character replies: Because when I pray I seem to be talking to myself. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 17:18:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Favorite swears, almost In message <950815180202_55248102@aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Regarding favorite movie lines, mine comes from the great Peter O'Toole > movie, The Ruling Class, in which O'Toole plays an insane Earl who thinks > he's Jesus Christ. When his relatives ask him why he thinks he's God, the > O'Toole character replies: Because when I pray I seem to be talking to > myself. aha, so that's the name of that wonderful movie i saw so many years ago, where peter o'toole turns from jesus christ into jack the ripper. one of my favorite words, "insinuendo," comes from that movie. thanks for the hot tip. speaking of local slangs, someone (brian?) mentioned calling someone a "gary." in ithaca new york in the late 60s it was a "gomer." i think the derivation of that is obvious. in mass. we used to call the liquor store the "package store," or the "packy" for short.--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:57:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Favorite swears, almost In-Reply-To: <30311d495f01002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "Maria Damon" at Aug 15, 95 05:18:50 pm Since I have a lot of smart people on line, can anyone tell me the etymology of "nerd" and "bronco"? No reason. I would just like to sleep at night. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 19:11:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Lurkin' In-Reply-To: <199508150401.VAA23182@sparta.SJSU.EDU> don't have my books here beside me -- but as I recall, Larkin _was_ one of those people who talked snobby about popular music (couldn't seem to listen much past the stage favored by what the British jazz fans called "moldy figs") -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 19:17:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: faux mail In-Reply-To: <199508150401.VAA23182@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Maria -- Yes, Chris is a man or a woman. any news for us on the progress of Kaufman collecteds??? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: faux kauf In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Maria -- Yes, Chris is a man or a woman. > > any news for us on the progress of Kaufman collecteds??? hey aldon. i've not heard much from coffeehouse press since i stepped down from the board, but lasaat i heard it wuz to be out in feb 96, but not the collected, just selected, including a reprint of golden sardine and a handful of previously uncollecteds, plus a sampling from solitudes and ancient rain...david henderson and i both wrote essays for the book, but only his is advertized in the latest chp catalogue, not quite sure what that means...--md (ps dig yr postpuns) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:14:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Beaudoin Subject: Re: Gloucester's Olson Loss-- Thanks for the generous and detailed account--speaking of under-advertised, wisht I had known. /d ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. David Beaudouin in cybercomm@charm.net Baltimore, Maryland tropos@charm.net hon! vox/fax: 410.467.0600 ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: THE FAMOUS REPORTER THE FAMOUS REPORTER 'Famous Reporter' is a biannual literary magazine which publishes short stories, poems, haiku, articles, interviews, reviews and news about writing events. Issue 12 is due for publication in December '95. New for issue 12 are one hundred word essays taking as their departure point a personal response to the opening line ("What am I worth?") of R.A. Simpson's poem 'find the saviour. The 'essays' may be in the form of prose or poetry, and need bear no relation to Simpson's poem apart from an individual response to the opening line. Contributions for publication will be selected by Victorian writer Lorraine Marwood. Subscriptions to 'Famous Reporter' cost $12 (within Australia) for two issues, from Walleah Press, PO Box 368, North Hobart, Tasmania 7002, Australia (overseas rates on application). The June '95 issue (# 11) features interviews with Sam Watson, Annie Warburton, articles essays and reviews by Bruce Roberts, Paul Bailey, Tim Thorne, David Owen, Elizabeth Dean, Henry Reynolds, Sherryl Clark and poetry, haiku and prose. E-mail enquiries: Ralph.Wessman@forestry.tas.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:03:41 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: favourite care word: "you" In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit of subject's object status, violent transformation ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <9508160403.AA23315@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > kook!" > Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > warehouse, curls > no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > cleaners > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit > of subject's object status, violent transformation la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 00:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > kook!" > Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > warehouse, curls > no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > cleaners > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit > of subject's object status, violent transformation la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:19:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? Lindz wrote: >It's kinda cool not knowing what someone is gender wise. But I always >assumed that I pretty well betrayed myself by my responses and my language >as being young and female. Nope--not to me anyway. I thought you were an older male. (I hope this neither offends nor excessively surprises you.) This is what I meant not too long ago when I foolishly posted that "language seems to engender *itself*" or some such. What I meant was we read gender differently into a body of written or electronic text than we do into the human or animal body, but generally with the assumption that there's no difference between the gender we're reading into the text and the gender of the author of that text (that is, until Maria or someone starts to question this assumption and gets up the gumption to ask--thanks, Maria!) Makes for some interesting social situations. Try figuring out whether the narrator of Carla Harryman's "In The Mode Of" is male or female. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Too late to the renga >I get embarrassed whenever I try to change anyone's opinion. I've come around to your way of thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:46:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Favorite swears, almost In-Reply-To: <30311d495f01002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "Maria Damon" at Aug 15, 95 05:18:50 pm In my daughter's highschool about 7 years ago they called them not Gary or Gomer, but Ned. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:50:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Chooks In-Reply-To: from "Tony Green" at Aug 15, 95 06:42:48 pm I think that my favourite chickens are those created by Daniel Pinkwater, especially the one under the guy's hat in *Lizard Music* and the giant one in *The Hoboken Chicken Emergency*. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:01:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Aug 15, 95 07:34:17 am No no, by "southern" I mean John Faulkner or Tobacco Road. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:06:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: West Coast Line In-Reply-To: <2D379176DCC@as.ua.edu> from "Hank Lazer" at Aug 15, 95 01:53:33 pm Several people have been asking me about the address and cost and back issues of West Coast Line, and I have been backchannelling them. Hoiw abt if I put the info on here? Dont be put off by the academic address. West Coast Line, 2027 East Academic Annex, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., V5A 1S6, Canada. Subscription (3 issues) is $20. Usually 150-250 pages. Lots of good back issues available, probably special rates. The next issue, in about 3 months, will be the special Brit issue, edited by Peter Quartermain. Whew! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:08:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak I think you mean Erskine Atwood ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:24:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Aug 11, 95 08:37:29 am I had a dream & in the dream were books & in the books were renga & in the renga were advertisements for Coke Classic. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:30:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars In-Reply-To: <199508160624.XAA18976@fraser.sfu.ca> On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > I had a dream > & in the dream were books > & in the books were renga > & in the renga were advertisements > for Coke Classic. > George you're my hero, LIndz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:32:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak In-Reply-To: <950816020807_75876675@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Aug 16, 95 02:08:09 am No no, Erskin Atwood pitched for the Dodgers several decades back. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:38:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars In-Reply-To: <199508160624.XAA18976@fraser.sfu.ca> I creamed. I came in nooks, in long songs. I was heard, my birds were rooks. I screamed. There were other looks About to tear away the thongs. Others longed to couple cords with books. Others' supple hooks sucked rites from wrong. I beamed, grew long. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:29:33 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W. Northcutt" Subject: Re: Hambone Could someone please send me Hambone's address? Thanks, William william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 06:49:57 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: furnished, remember?/no renga Congratulations on going to Utah. Having moved away from Arizona two years ago, I still miss the western skies & landscapes terribly. You're coming from the other direction, so you probably think I'm a flake when I say that this Minnesota place is truly farther east than I ever wanted to live (although I do like visiting those eastern urban places). If you go through Ohio, stop at Mound City, near Chilicothe, one of the most interesting Native American mound sites I've seen. If in southeastern Kansas, the Flint Hills are like some beautiful barren Martian landscape which I love to drive through. I don't know if there's much place to stop and walk or hike, but there probably is such a place there. Jeff Moran may still be at Lindsborg College (or university?) in Lindsborb, Kansas, either just north or just south of Wichita (I forget). He was teaching bookmaking there, and has his own books which are marvelous inventions of words & materials. I don't have an address, but I knew Jeff (barely, but admired his books greatly) when I was learning bookmaking in Madison, Wisconsin, and I am great friends with Penny McElroy, who preceded Jeff in teaching books at Lindsborg, but she's now at Univ. of Redlands in California. Lots of Colorado is beautiful, of course, but in a more majestic, picture-postcard way. Although Mesa Verde down in 4 Corners land is poetic & amazing. Almost everything in New Mexico is worth seeing, but that's probably too far south for you. Go through the smaller towns all the way if you can. You'll find more strange and marvelous things. My recent favorite was a small town in northern Oklahoma which had a house with literally hundreds of painted signs in front & on top & on the side, all about the coming acopalypse & other subjects. Utah may be the strangest state in the west, depending on your religious sensibility. I thought Salt Lake City was the cleanest city I'd ever seen, in an eerie way. We camped once at Beaver Creek, in the Wasatch Mountains, not too far east of Salt Lake, & perhaps just a little south. Down the road from Beaver Creek (perhaps a national park site, or national forest site) campsite was Beaver Creek Nudist Colony, which I thought was pretty interesting to find in Utah -- we didn't go there, though. Good luck & I hope I make it to Utah. We're currently considering moving back to Tucson, Arizona. all best, charles charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 06:50:45 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: furnished, remember?/no renga Oops, I hit reply by mistake & sent a message intended for Marisa to all poetics list. My apologies & embarassments. charles charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Fred E. Maus" Subject: Re: furnished, remember?/no renga In-Reply-To: <39103.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "Charles Alexander" at Aug 16, 95 06:50:45 am Wrote Charles Alexander: > > Oops, I hit reply by mistake & sent a message intended for Marisa to all > poetics list. My apologies & embarassments. > Don't apologize. It was fascinating. Better than many things that come to my mailbox, for sure. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:49:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Too late to the renga In message <199508160519.WAA15891@slip-1.slip.net> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >I get embarrassed whenever I try to change anyone's opinion. > I've come around to your way of thinking. I've grown accustomed to your ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:50:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Favorite swears and Seventies-Speak george b writes: > No no, by "southern" I mean John Faulkner or Tobacco Road. who's john faulkner?--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars sondheim writes: > I creamed. I came in nooks, in long songs. > I was heard, my birds were rooks. > I screamed. There were other looks > About to tear away the thongs. > Others longed to couple cords with books. > Others' supple hooks sucked rites from wrong. > I beamed, grew long. bravo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 12:11:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars In-Reply-To: from "Lindz Williamson" at Aug 15, 95 11:30:23 pm George and anyone available: I had a dream a song to sing to help me through most anything if you see the wonder in the fairy-tale... --Abba ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:12:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> (inspection >> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> kook!" >> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> warehouse, curls >> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >> cleaners >> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >> of subject's object status, violent transformation > la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:19:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: you're fe/mail? >Lindz wrote: > >>It's kinda cool not knowing what someone is gender wise. But I always >>assumed that I pretty well betrayed myself by my responses and my language >>as being young and female. > and Steve Carll wrote: >Nope--not to me anyway. I thought you were an older male. (I hope this >neither offends nor excessively surprises you.) This is what I meant not >too long ago when I foolishly posted that "language seems to engender >*itself*" or some such. What I meant was we read gender differently into a >body of written or electronic text than we do into the human or animal body, >but generally with the assumption that there's no difference between the >gender we're reading into the text and the gender of the author of that text >(that is, until Maria or someone starts to question this assumption and gets >up the gumption to ask--thanks, Maria!) Makes for some interesting social >situations. Try figuring out whether the narrator of Carla Harryman's "In >The Mode Of" is male or female. I recently surprised myself when writing to a particular editor who went by intials, rather than by a (recognizable) first name. I thought the individual was one gender, and later learned that I was wrong. While there was nothing in my correspondence TO that person that was wrong or wildly non-neutral (!), I found that what was happened for me was a definite set of assumptions that did affect the way I spoke or wrote. It seemed more like working in different (although certainly compatible) languages. Both were greatly pleasurable. Each was different. I hope that what I'm saying (with readers of both genders in view) is conveyed as something more than a set of ditto marks after that Venus Mars business. Because I believe that for the most interestingly fluent people, the severity of divisions is usually reduced to a great degree. Minds talking to minds. My surprise came in recognizing that although I feel, for the most part, like a mind talking to minds, there certainly are some things working that I'd not been so aware of. Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:23:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: furnished, remember?/no renga Charles, >>Oops, I hit reply by mistake & sent a message intended for Marisa to all >>poetics list. My apologies & embarassments. That was actually one of the best posts the list has ever seen. Marissa, I would recommend getting your hands on Baseball America's 1995 guide that lists minor and major league schedules, stadium directions, etc. It contains everything a scout needs to know to drive around the country to watch the up and coming. I mean many small to midland towns that you'll be passing through have minor league ball teams. Evening games are usually mon-sat at around 7:30 pm, the perfect way to end a long drive. The problem is the Baseball America guide is kind of hard to find. Usually MLB marketing professionals have them. The Yanks or the Mets front office might sell you one. I once bought one in Richmond, VA from the Braves triple-a front office staff. Happy trails. Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:23:59 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: A Poem By Ryan Knighton > George and anyone available: > > I had a dream > a song to sing > to help me through > most anything > if you see the wonder > in the fairy-tale... > > --Abba > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:23:02 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: hole mag fyi just out: hole 5 New Poetry, including: Bruce Andrews Clint Burnham Peter Culley Stacy Doris Gerry Gilbert Harryette Mullen Ted Pearson forthcoming (Fall 1995): hole 6 Poetics, Reviews, including: Clint Burnham Jeff Derksen Nate Dorward Susan Holbrook Germaine Koh Rob Manery Nicole Markotic Lisa Robertson Johan de Wit Fred Wah & others 2 issues airmail for indivs.: CAD$ 9.00 Canada US$ 9.00 USA US$ 11.00 elsewhere. hole magazine "with the most cake" A n n o u n c i n g: chapbooks hole chapbook #1 Alan Davies: SEI SHONAGON $4.00 Can. US$ 4.00 USA US$ 5.00 elsewhere hole 1-4 O.P. *** a few provisory remarks after July (1995): old news for new context & emphasis in _hole_ -- for Loss P. G.'s index & Joel K.'s mag "Politics" in/of aesthetics, and as the most out-there horizon of "the aesthetic" in here - the everyday (insofar as "the aesthetic" still exists, and understood if only, then, by negative historical tracework): these remain for us crucial issues of poetics and poetry. "Politics," not only as how Robin Blaser brings it forward from Aristotle into modernism+ via Arendt - prose of means and ends, ethics of organizing goods and services to benefit the most meaning. Just as the question of the referent and the figure of outward has irrevocably altered for poetry, so too has the question of the phenomenological subject and the figure of inward. So it's from the latter that we also take "the political," and on equal terms with that ancient, fraught concept of "intention," an ethics of. These politics meet in language as language's motivated condition per se - which informs the level of the phoneme up through morpheme, word, phrase, etc., as socially constituted - & therefore contestable - givens. The rest of "the inward" -- its poetics of the spiritual, of subjectivity by ideological attrition -- and of "the outward" -- its poetics of intentionality by a rhetoric of the reductive -- signal for us only more of the prevailing return of borders (internal/external) of origin, most alarmingly macro being those of individual nations (however upset in their dialectic as trading block members, or however sublated warfare becomes as economic interest). We want to explore the paradoxical politics premised on twin interrogatives for formal innovation: of an irreferential language and an aphenomenological subject. We think that historically, occasions when poesis has politicized its own formal machineries and contexts are exceptional enough that such disclosures of radical materialism, when & how they occur, are to be closely tended. (Theory product warning: the relation of these remarks to the contents of each issue might be as ambiguous to discriminate as whatever relation exists between, for example, this poetics listserv and poetry. - On the phyrric as impediment to "manifesto.") Louis Cabri/Rob Manery, eds. _hole_ magazine 22-191 McLeod Street Ottawa, Ontario Canada K2P 0Z8 (Pls. make cheque out to Rob Manery. Thank you.) LDMCABRI@ACS.UCALGARY.CA / AK176@FREENET.CARLETON.CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:56:11 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: JG others and us In-Reply-To: <302f818f1e50002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Maria, you are wonderful! So glad to see someone else anxiously scanning the lines to see if theirs are still clinging to the boat...! :-) Gab. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: mumia signature hi folks sorry bout this but i deleted my mumia petition post after sending it out to everyone i knew, here's someone who replied to me rather than to the appropriate folks, so --i can't now remember who posted the mumia info, but cd you please forward the following forward to the right address? thanks--md From: Paula Rabinowitz Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:17:17 -0500 (CDT) To: maria damon Subject: Re: action alert-- Mumia petition Please add my name to the list of academics in support of Mumia. Paula Rabinowitz--Associate Professor of english, american Studies and Women's studies University of Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:15:37 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:12:34 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>> (inspection >>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>> kook!" >>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>> warehouse, curls >>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>> cleaners >>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: JG others and us gabrielle writes: > Maria, you are wonderful! So glad to see someone else anxiously scanning > the lines to see if theirs are still clinging to the boat...! :-) > > Gab. hey listen, i'm so unbelievably shy about my "creative" writing as distinct from my "critical" writing (i almost cry when people ask, "do you write poetry yourself, as well as crit?" --or as my sister, a writer of light sonnets, so sensitively puts it, "and are you doing any of your *own* writing these days?") that i'm impressed that i'm participating at all. having said that, yes, i fanatically track "my" lines to see if they made the grade enough to further the renga, or whether i singlehandedly sank the ship. it's kinda fun to cast a line out there and see if it reels any more lines in...thanks everyone for just the right degree of anonymity and playfulness.--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:29:59 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Chooks Dear George, thanks for the additions to the chicken list, I'd appreciate a bit of description of each, since your chooks are unfamiliar. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:17:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Too late to the renga In-Reply-To: <3031f7632f7f002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote:> In message <199508160519.WAA15891 @slip-1.slip.net> UB Poetics discussion group> writes: > > >I get embarrassed whenever I try to change anyone's opinion. > > I've come around to your way of thinking. > I've grown accustomed to your > deodorant but not the nose hair ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:32:55 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Too late to the renga Comments: To: maria damon On 16 Aug 95 at 8:49, maria damon wrote: > In message <199508160519.WAA15891@slip-1.slip.net> UB Poetics discussion group > writes: > > >I get embarrassed whenever I try to change anyone's opinion. > > I've come around to your way of thinking. > I've grown accustomed to your Overgrowth, as tendril-words embrace the ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: >> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>> (inspection >>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>> kook!" >>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>> warehouse, curls >>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>> cleaners >>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:33:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" >On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: > >>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>> (inspection >>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>> kook!" >>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>> cleaners >>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep in brazen deliquescence, curled up in antinomy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:25:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Chooks In-Reply-To: from "Tony Green" at Aug 17, 95 03:29:59 pm Daniel Pinkwater. the great USAmerican kidsbooks author, is a little loony on chickens and dogs. In *Lizard Music* Dell paperback, 1976, there is a kid who has several friends on the street, including an old African-American guy who keeps a white chicken on his shoulder and sometimes his head. The chicken's name is Claudia and the man's name keeps changing. There is also a quintet of Lizards who play great music, and an attack of the pod people.The man and the chicken solve all the puzzles, or show the kid Victor how to do it. Almost as good as Pinkwater's two books about the Snarkout Boys. *The Hoboken Chicken Emergency* features a 266-pound chicken at Thanksgiving. A horror story set in New Jersey; what more could you ask for? Pinkwater's drawings are as bad as Vonnegut's in that book about the arts festival. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:12:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: desire / and the 39 steps Comments: cc: Edward Foster in cool early dawn's light, under a microscope, his artificial grass appears slavishly vivid. the 'real thing' having dried back years before. beetles burning their hope there, memorials to the edge between that tended and that wild pumping valve. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 02:34:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania Dear sad Cardinals fan > > That bare-handed line drive [caught by Kevin Mitchell], as I recall, was off the bat of Ozzie Smith. Didn't he also play for the Giants for a while? No. He played with the San Diego Padres before being traded, one up, for shortstop Gary Templeton who was then presumed to be a better batter. When he was in San Diego, it was already apparent that Smith was the finest fielding shortstop ever to play the game. It's sad to see him now at 40, reduced to mere excellence. The Pods, by the way, later were to trade Kevin Mitchell for not so much in return. George is totally right about how his attitude drives "purists" wild. (PS, if this seems redundant to some other messages, I'm still 250 messages behind, having spent a week in such places as Waco, TX, Southhaven, Mississippi, parts of Arkansas I never did figure out where I was and Memphis, Tennessee. Had not previously realized that the immediate next door neighbors of Mr. Presley were a series of funky little lube shops. That is not one of the better streets to have had a mansion on.) George, your cactus collection would fit right in. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 03:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) Herb Levy wrote: >But note that forays onto CAP-L by folks from POETICS (at least those since last winter) have invariably ended when someone on CAP-L says "okay, you've made your point about what some of the problems with OUR stuff are, can you give an example of an inferior work in the "parallel tradition," so that we have some kind of idea 0f how YOUR aesthetics operate." So far no one from POETICS has been willing to say "yeah, here's something that was published in Origin (or Acts, or Aerial, or Alcheringa, or Avec, to go through some of the more recent journals on the shelf behind me) & it is really, really bad." In one sense, I think that this is what Bob Perelman's _The Trouble with Genius_ does and does admirably, going as it does after the biggest sacred cows we have. Certainly the section on Joyce's Ulysses as an accumulative text, with differing and conflicting goals at different stages of its development, is the most realistic assessment of that project as writing as we've had. And much of the Pound as well. Bob (who I think is still in the U.K. tho he may be back in the next week or so) goes as much at the critical traditions that have sprung up around Ez, Joyce, Gertrude and Louis (pronounced Louie -- and why, by the way, does everyone even today still pronounce it that way?) as he does the writers themselves, but he is very clear in bringing them down to size by desacralizing them through basic problems in/with their writing. The book's weakness, it seems to me, is its reliance on the concept of genius itself, a frame that he drops very quickly after the intro to each chapter in favor of a more grounded reading. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:06:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) In-Reply-To: <199508171031.DAA24958@ix4.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > In one sense, I think that this is what Bob Perelman's _The Trouble > with Genius_ does and does admirably, going as it does after the > biggest sacred cows we have. Certainly the section on Joyce's Ulysses > as an accumulative text, with differing and conflicting goals at > different stages of its development, is the most realistic assessment > of that project as writing as we've had. And much of the Pound as well. > Bob (who I think is still in the U.K. tho he may be back in the next > week or so) goes as much at the critical traditions that have sprung up > around Ez, Joyce, Gertrude and Louis (pronounced Louie -- and why, by > the way, does everyone even today still pronounce it that way?) as he > does the writers themselves, but he is very clear in bringing them down > to size by desacralizing them through basic problems in/with their > writing. > > The book's weakness, it seems to me, is its reliance on the concept of > genius itself, a frame that he drops very quickly after the intro to > each chapter in favor of a more grounded reading. Maybe, but the Wile E. Coyote reference toward the end brought it all back home for me. I whimsically imagine that was the initiating image for the project. To follow that up with a paper/scissors/rock description of the literary scene was pretty bold, given the largely academic audience such a book's destined for. That description still haunts me -- I think it's the most fully *relational* representation of current writing institutions I've seen. I don't see the Joyce chapter quite as strongly as you do -- but maybe that's because I was saturated with Joyce criticism a few years back. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:59:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) In response to ROn and David Kellogg's posts re Perelman and Genius--I was going to write a review of the book, but I am waiting for the SEQUEL--the marginalization of poetry--because what he does there is going to retrospectively confer meaning on this--- But, here's a question for people---would you consider this book to be a DEBUNKING one, and what is the value of debunking books today---It is this question of "debunking" (which is weird--coz Stein, for instance has hardly been BUNKED) that interests me and it will be interesting to see if P just goes after the "modernists" so he can build up his contemporaries.....\ STAY TUNED (it's all so kitschy isn't it)...cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:47:23 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Theresa Krystyna Smalec Subject: women's discourses of HIV and AIDS Dear Buffalo Poetics People, Hi, my name's Theresa Smalec and i've just subscribed to this list. i wonder if anyone knows of and/or wants to talk about women's poetics of dis/ease. specifically, i'm interested in poetry that deals with HIV and AIDS, though curious about other people's senses of what a discourse of dis/ease might entail. any thoughts? theresa smalec (tksmalec@acs.ucalgary.ca) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) In-Reply-To: <01HU6BYQAW828Y5IDJ@ALBNYVMS.BITNET> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > In response to ROn and David Kellogg's posts re Perelman and > Genius--I was going to write a review of the book, but I am waiting > for the SEQUEL--the marginalization of poetry--because what he does > there is going to retrospectively confer meaning on this--- > But, here's a question for people---would you consider this book > to be a DEBUNKING one, and what is the value of debunking books > today---It is this question of "debunking" (which is weird--coz > Stein, for instance has hardly been BUNKED) that interests me > and it will be interesting to see if P just goes after the > "modernists" so he can build up his contemporaries.....\ > STAY TUNED (it's all so kitschy isn't it)...cs I see the book as a kind of sideways debunking, not directly debunking either the writers or their reputation -- the opposite, in fact, since we're at the stage now where contemporary experimental poetic practices are in need of a genealogy for their own authorization (witness, at a far less engaged level, books by Peter Baker and Christopher Beach). But rather a debunking of critical myths the writers (to differing degrees) participated in. A historicization in the sense of tracing a shaping concept -- genius as the episteme of modernism? -- that no one person "shaped." So as not to read pre-postmodernist writers like they "asked" to be read, but to get positive results from reading them against themselves. A kind of productive debunking. That's a quick 2cents. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:07:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Faulkner In-Reply-To: <3031f7ad312b002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 16, 95 08:50:39 am John Faulkner was a USAmerican novelist I read when I was a teenager. He writes a lot like Erskine Caldwell, and he was the brother of another novelist, William Faulkner. The Faulkners kept the names John and William going in every generation. They had a grandfather, I think it was, who was a novelist, too. His name was John Falkner. Wm Faulkner added the "u", if I remember aright. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:12:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Renga 11: Invasion from Mars In-Reply-To: from "Lindz Williamson" at Aug 15, 95 11:30:23 pm Hey, Lindzed, I'm not a hero. Kevin Mitchell is a hero. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:22:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <302b5e793bcd002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 11, 95 08:43:22 am Yeah, I was just thinking a while ago about the way people like me look at ballplayers that are, in the real world, arseholes, like kevin Mitchell or Jose Canseco, but how we kind of like them in the baseball world because they are nbot just the normal cliches. I really liked Dave Kingman, though I would have hated him outside of baseball. I never did much like Mickey Mantle. I cant remember all the stuff Mitchell got in shit for. But I do remember that he and his brother were in the gangs in San Diego. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: <950811024242_74277.1477_HHJ84-3@CompuServe.COM> from "Rachel Loden" at Aug 10, 95 10:42:43 pm I am curious about these "new formalists" I have been hearing snippets abt from US sources over the past few years. They have never, as far as I know, been heard of up here. Curious: in Canada the poets of the Allen anthology 30 years ago, quickly became for us the main US line of poetry, while the Iowa types were perhaps known by a few profs who probably came from Bucknell anyway. Are any of the "new formalists" famous? I have a feeling by "new" is probably meant old, and by "formalists" is probably meant conventional. But I have never heard any of their poems, as far as I know. Are they a cohesive group, or is the term just used widely to refer to latter-day Iowa poets? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: The List Itself One value of the list itself is the democratic way in which it introduces people to one another. I had a chance to experience this first hand in Dallas the other day when Joseph Zitt took me to a great restaurant, followed by a fine reading (Joe was one of the featured readers), a view into the Dallas lit scene I could have gotten no other way. Joe gave a terrific reading, by the way! Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:50:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Shedding the Lurker Skin Maria (she ends the poems) Damon wrote: did u know that when robert duncan was adopted by the symmeses, they had >an astrological chart drawn up for him that said, among other things, that he >would witness the end of his own civilization during his lifetime? so the >apocalypse must've happened before march 1988. Just a smidgen under 20 years before, I'd say. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:33:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: The List Itself ron s writes: > One value of the list itself is the democratic way in which it > introduces people to one another. I had a chance to experience this > first hand in Dallas the other day when Joseph Zitt took me to a great > restaurant, followed by a fine reading (Joe was one of the featured > readers), a view into the Dallas lit scene I could have gotten no other > way. Joe gave a terrific reading, by the way! Thanks! i like to hear this kind of thing, along with extended coverage of conferences, etc (thanks loss!). thanks ron. my kindred-spirit-in-every-port fantasy seems to be at least partially realizable.--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:45:27 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: > >>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>> (inspection >>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>> kook!" >>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>> cleaners >>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:20:49 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) David Kellogg writes of Perelman's book on genius, "I see the book as a kind of sideways debunking, not directly debunking either the writers or their reputation -- the opposite, in fact, since we're at the stage now where contemporary experimental poetic practices are in need of a genealogy for their own authorization." Is this another way of saying a new canon building is needed, a contention with which I might have some problems, or do you have something else in mind. Could you explain why "contemporary experimental poetic practices are in need of a genealogy for their own authorization?" The genealogy I understand, as long as it is as unrestrictive as is possible. But I'm not certain why such works need "authorization" beyond their own making. But you may mean something quite specific by this term "authorization." thanks, charles charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:31:36 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" George, I don't know if I have a lot to say about these new formalists, but my sense is they are not so Iowa-connected, the Iowa line of writers (yes I know it's hardly a consistent line) being less strictly formal, rather more free verse narrativists. The new formalists are rather more interested in received forms of verse, renewing a tradition of poetry based on forms handed down over the last several centuries. Whether they succeed at such renewal is another question. At least one wing of these formalists has more connection to a Stanford tradition which includes such diverse figures as Yvor Winters and Donald Davie (Davie was teaching at Stanford when I was there in the early to mid-70's, and while I am in debt to him for introducing me to serious study of Pound as well as quirky English poets such as Christopher Smart, I have very mixed feelings about him as a poet, and I found that, at Stanford, I generally had to get to San Francisco and Berkeley to experience contemporary writers whose work was meaningful to me). The key Stanford grad/writer (who went on to Harvard Business School and a career as a business executive) in the new formalist movement is Dana Gioia (who was, as a senior in college, a resident advisor in my freshman dormitory), but although Dana is perhaps one of the best known new formalists, I really am so unfamiliar with the group as not to know if he is truly central to their concerns. I have a vague sense that some part of the new formalist movement comes out of various more southern USA writing traditions, but perhaps someone else could speak more about that. all best, charles charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 03:15:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania >I cant remember all the stuff Mitchell got in shit for. One day, leaving Candlestick Park, the cops busted the person who was riding w/ Mitch on a homocide warrant. Bar fights occurred once or twice. And I think he may have pistol whipped a girlfriend (or am I confusing him with Bonds or Canseco here?). Like George says, not someone you would want to know "outside of" baseball. Not unlike lit in that regard. Never could imagine Spicer as a friend, nor Olson, nor Burroughs. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 08:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) In-Reply-To: <93180.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > David Kellogg writes of Perelman's book on genius, "I see the book as a kind > of sideways debunking, not directly debunking > either the writers or their reputation -- the opposite, in fact, since > we're at the stage now where contemporary experimental poetic practices > are in need of a genealogy for their own authorization." > Is this another way of saying a new canon building is needed, a contention > with which I might have some problems, or do you have something else in > mind. Could you explain why "contemporary experimental poetic practices > are in need of a genealogy for their own authorization?" The genealogy I > understand, as long as it is as unrestrictive as is possible. But I'm not > certain why such works need "authorization" beyond their own making. But > you may mean something quite specific by this term "authorization." Charles, Thanks for your response. I suppose I shouldn't have used the term "in need," since I do NOT mean to suggest that this or that poetry "needs" anything for its own good -- I'm advocating nothing on that score, being a thoroughgoing relativist. And I am *certainly* not advocating anything like a new canon-building process. I was trying to speak (loosely) sociologically, in the sense of "what happens anyway." Enough people are reading, say, L-poetry for there to be a collective need to understand where it came from. Now this "where" is always built retroactively, both with L-poetry and with all other traditions. For a while the historical constructions were limited to the "internal" audience (viz. the variety of essays on/about/through Stein in language-associated publications). The need to construct a "tradition" is established structurally, not individually, as l-poetry gains and seeks a wider "outside" (read: academic?) audience. I want to stress that I don't think this is a good or bad thing. It's just what happens. I should say that my thoughts on this issue are heavily influenced by Bourdieu, and that I see l-poetry, as it becomes more established as a viable "position" in the poetic field (gaining what I've elsewhere called "positionality), becoming firmly entrenched on the side of the field where rules what Bourdieu calls "restricted production: there value is determined through a reversal of the economic field, i.e., not sales but recognition. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 08:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: <93769.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> My sense of the "new formalists" is that there is a strong thread among them, Timothy Steele and Dana Gioia for example, that is interested in debunking the entire notion of "free verse," never mind composition by field. They seem stuck back a few decades ago, trying to debunk WCW's "Red Wheelbarrow," insisting that it has no prosody and is not a poem, et cetera. I believe there are other poets who use (and often abuse, cut up, lop off, etc.) received forms, like Molly Peacock, who don't subscribe to the Steeleian-Gioian mindset. Gwyn McVay gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 08:46:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: off the subject I know this is off-subject, but thought it might amuse: ...................... Here's the open letter published in an Australian newspaper that we told you about: An open letter to M. Jacques Chirac: Mon cher Jack Je suis a bit fromaged off avec votre decision to blow up La Pacifique avec le Frog bombes nuclears. Je reckon vous must have un spot in La Belle France itself pour les explosions. Le Massive Central? Le Quay d'Orsay? Le Champs Elysees? Votre own back yard, peut etre? Frappez le crows avec stones, Sport! La guerre cold est fini! Votres forces militaire need la bombe atomique about as beacoup as poisson need les bicyclettes. Un autre point, cobber. Votre histoire militaire isn't tres flash, consisting, n'est-ce pas, of battailles the likes of Crecy, Agincourt, Poitiers, Trafalgar, Borodino, Waterloo, Sedan, et Dien Bien Phu. Un bombe won't change le tradition. Je/mon pere/ mon grand pere/le cousing third avec ma grandmere/la plume de ma tante fought avec votre soldats against Le Boche in WWI (le Big One). Have vous forgotten? Reconsider, mon ami, otherwise in le hotels et estaminets de l'Australie le curse anciens d'Angleterre - "Damnation to the French" - will be heard un autre temps. Votre chums don't want that. Millo. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 00:40:21 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" Comments: To: Charles Alexander On 17 Aug 95 at 22:45, Charles Alexander wrote: > On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700, > Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > >On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: > > > >>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>> (inspection > >>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>> kook!" > >>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>>>> cleaners > >>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > >>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > >>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > >>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > >>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit > >>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes itself over us, slower than sound, yet mapping tone to color ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:43:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) dear david kellogg--actually, one of the most intriguing things and positive things about THE TROUBLE WITH GENIUS is the part where Perelman seems to suggest (I'll find passage if people want) that the aesthetic of, say, Stevens is preferable to that of Pound and Zuk---There's a point at which he claims that the problem with the writers his book focusses on is that they MADE LARGER CLAIMS for their work than they could have achieved and at least Stevens and others didn't do this---I find this incredibly interesting--even if Perelman, I suppose for obvious reasons, doesn't make this CENTRAL to his book----Bests, chris Stroffolino (Ron and Maria--i too appreciate the democracy of this list and have met people to "usher" me places......) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:47:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <91249.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "Charles Alexander" at Aug 17, 95 10:45:27 pm The Inevitable REnga: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ....etc..... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 13:05:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: GAPPED In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Aug 17, 95 06:02:59 pm Since the Blasercon is somewhat fresh still, can somebody tell me if Blaser's use of "the Gap" is another term for "outside" or "other" as in his Collected Books essay abt Spicer? I encounterd it in Sharon Thesen's Mean Drunk Poem, if that helps. Thanks millions ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <199508181947.MAA20892@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > The Inevitable REnga: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>murphy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lurkers > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>r>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>chax>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>e>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rengaside > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kibitzers > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guitart>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>n>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g>>>> bowering > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >silliman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lindzed > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cabri>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > .....etc..... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: clean Poetics I've decided to take a few days to forget posts before I respond to them. Was it Alfred Corn or the whole hydra of Cap-L that proposed we choose a sacrificial experimental poet? Instead of "show us a bad experimental poet," why not ask us "what is _good_ about good poetry in the experimental tradition" and advise us about what is good about good poetry in the conservative tradition. Then we can talk about the common properties of this good. Assuming there's any good poetry in either tradition. Your secret admirer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 19:21:07 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: just frabjous I get embarrassed whenever I try to change anyone's opinion. I've come around to your way of thinking. Persons outside my ethnic group. Sorry for the confusion. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 21:43:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Curt Anderson Subject: Re: clean Jordan: I think that what's good about experimental writing is the willingness to trust an instinct for what's interesting in verse, both within and without established forms and traditions -- for "experimental" writing merely codifies itself on a quicker cycle than more mainstream poetry. What moves me the most about "experimental" writing are those patches when I don't consciously know why I'm attentive. As for a sacrificial experimental writer, I can only hope that I am both obscure and recognized enought to be disposed of. Curt Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 19:20:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" >On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700, >Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >>On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: >> >>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>>> (inspection >>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>>> kook!" >>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>>> cleaners >>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 20:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Meet the New Formalists / Just like the Old Formalists In-Reply-To: <199508180358.UAA02711@sparta.SJSU.EDU> but less well-read -- does the phrase "first time as tragedy, second time as farce" seem appropriate here -- several books now out on the subject in USA, George, but look through a few issues of _The Formalist_ for a roundup -- what's most peculiar, to me, about this is that only practioners of _certain_ forms and certain rhetorical modes seem to qualify as formalists to this bunch (by which I mean _that_ bunch) -- part of their argument is that modernism turned against "the very thing that makes verse verse," a statement that reveals not only ignorance of much Pound (and certainly Eliot), but that seemingly refuses to recognize other formal modes of organizing poems besides meter & rhyme (odd, given the English poem's origins in alliterative verse) -- Moore & Niedecker remain two of my favorite formalists -- & Ron -- That's a _good_ neighborhood to buld a mansion in if you have a fleet of cadillacs to keep in running order! besides, it's ggod to know there's a cola machine nearby when you're up all night shooting television sets in your living room -- (good, as well as ggod) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 22:17:49 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" Comments: To: Gwyn McVay On 18 Aug 95 at 8:32, Gwyn McVay wrote: > debunking the entire notion of "free verse," never mind composition by > field. They seem stuck back a few decades ago, trying to debunk WCW's What is "composition by field"? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 21:29:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" < maria damon writes In message <199508181947.MAA20892@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > The Inevitable REnga: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>murphy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lurkers > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>r>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>chax>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>e>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rengaside > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kibitzers > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guitart>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>n>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g>>>> bowering > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >silliman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lindzed > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cabri>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > .....etc..... but stturingg it totters. Helicopters flutter over and over but Kong grabs a grasping ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:18:02 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" > >On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700, > >Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > > >>On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: > >> > >>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>>> (inspection > >>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>>> kook!" > >>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>>>>> cleaners > >>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore > >>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be > >>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. > >>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness > >>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit > >>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > alive in our hearse hurts, projective nurse if she is to go ahead ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 10:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Gwyn McVay wrote: > My sense of the "new formalists" is that there is a strong thread among > them, Timothy Steele and Dana Gioia for example, that is interested in > debunking the entire notion of "free verse," never mind composition by > field. They seem stuck back a few decades ago, trying to debunk WCW's > "Red Wheelbarrow," insisting that it has no prosody and is not a poem, et > cetera. I believe there are other poets who use (and often abuse, cut up, > lop off, etc.) received forms, like Molly Peacock, who don't subscribe to > the Steeleian-Gioian mindset. Certainly that describes Steele: if anybody else on the planet has read his "Missing Measures: Modern Poetry and the Revolt Against Meter," I have a dilemma that you could help me resolve: (a) obtuse or (b) insane? I can't make up my mind. If Gioia is trying to debunk free verse now, then he's changed his mind of late; his much-cited essay "Notes on the New Formalism" makes much of the fact that he writes both free and traditionally metered verse. If only his exercises in either were any good.... Since somebody asked: a good critical essay on the NFs is by Alan Shapiro (who should be put in the Peacock camp, tho he seems even less of a fellow traveller) published in Critical Inquiry a few years back, and republished in his *In Praise of the Impure*. Shapiro resents being called a New Formalist, and he explains why pretty well. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 10:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Hard Press/Lingo WWW Site Is Up The Hard Press/Lingo WWW Site is up in basic form. Currently, you can access selected pieces from "Lingo 4". New works are being added each week and within a few weeks, most of the issue should be available. We are also working on putting "Lingo 1/2/3" online. Links & other small press pages are in store for the future. All in good time. Keep checking the site as it is very much under construction: http://crocker.com/~jongams ============================================================================= Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/ kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 12:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: EPC.News.3 ____ ____ ____ / / / / / / New URL effective 9/1/95 EEEE PPPPP CCCCC ______________________________________ EE / PP PP CC C/ | | EEE PPPPP CC / | ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER | __EE /_ PP |__ CC C __|__ | / EEEE/ PP/ CCCCC/ /| http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc | __/__________________________/ |___________________________________| E P C . N e w s * Special Issue * No. 3 (August 1, 1995) ___________________________________________________________________ ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER Annual Report July 1995 ___________________________________________________________________ The following information details transactions of the Electronic Poetry Center (EPC), a World-Wide Web based site for poetry and poetics housed at the State University of New York at Buffalo. Information about its resources as of the end of July, 1995 are presented in this report. ___________________________________________________________________ I. NUMBER OF TRANSACTIONS Number of transactions per month: Month Transactions 1/95 7935 2/95 7940 3/95 10370 4/95 11994 5/95 13458 Counts only include directories having ten or more transactions per month. ___________________________________________________________________ II. POETICS The EPC maintains resources related to the Poetics Program at Buffalo, SUNY Buffalo, including the Wednesdays at Four Plus calendar, and the archive of the Poetics discussion list. Also maintained are files of syllabi and other pedagogically relevant materials. At present, the Poetics archive comprises 24 files and a total of roughly 9.6 million bytes. ___________________________________________________________________ III. ITEMS "PUBLISHED" The Electronic Poetry Center, comprised of roughly 640 files in 85 directories, accomplishes the bulk of its "publishing," in addition to its Poetics files and the publication of RIF/T magazine, in three main areas: the author library, electronic journals it distributes, and information on print small presses it provides. Following is information on these three areas. 1. Authors Presently Linked (35 authors) * Charles Alexander * John Ashbery * Charles Bernstein * Lee Ann Brown * Basil Bunting * John Cage * Andy Clausen * Larry Eigner * Benjamin Friedlander * Chris Funkhouser * Elena Garro * Lydia Gil * Loss Pequen~o Glazier * Jorge Guitart * Matthew Huddleston * Michael Joyce * Robert Kelly * Judith Kerman * Richard Kostelanetz * Joel Kuszai * Hank Lazer * Jackson Mac Low * Nathaniel Mackey * Sheila E. Murphy * A.L. Nielsen * Charles Olson * Peter Quartermain * Joan Retallack * Jim Rosenberg * Jerome Rothenberg * Leslie Scalapino * Susan Schultz * Kenneth Sherwood * Martin Spinelli * Katie Yates 2. Journals Currently Distributed/Housed at the EPC (12 Journals; approx 88 issues / 402 files) Does not include journals to which links are provided (housed elsewhere) The following selected electronic poetry journals are distributed by the Electronic Poetry Center. Unlike many Internet sites, these journals are provided in collaboration with their editors to provide texts that are as "authoritative" as possible. * Brink / Plymouth, Devon, UK * DIU / Albany * Experioddi(cyber)cist / Florence, AL * Inter\face / Albany * Passages: A Technopoetics Journal / Albany, NY * Poemata - Canadian Poetry Assoc. / London, Ontario * Juxta/Electronic / Charlottesville, VA * RIF/T: Electronic Space for New Poetry, Prose, & Poetics * Segue Foundation/Roof Book News / New York * TREE: TapRoot Electronic Edition / Lakewood, Ohio * TREE: TapRoot Electronic Edition (Hypertext) / Lakewood, Ohio * We Magazine / Santa Cruz * Witz / Toluca Lake, CA 3. Listings of Print Small Presses (Approx. 70 files/items) The EPC provides listings for print small press publications. In addition to information about sources of information about small presses, and lists published both in the U.S. and U.K. of experimental magazines, the following files are presently offered in the categories, mags, presses, and sources. _Magazines_____ antenym chain compound.eye coppertales elephant first.intensity impercipient interruptions kiosk littlemagazine meaning na.ideophonics olson.minutes open.letter pbriefs poetry.ny raddle situation skylab southerly tinfish _Presses_____ avenue.txt avenue_b_list bdeck.txt generator herisson leave meow meow.spring_95 o_books potes.txt public.works.apr95 reality.street roof.txt segue-p.txt st-hill.txt story_line sun_and_moon tailspin texture viet wellsweep ___________________________________________________________________ Prepared by Loss Pequen~o Glazier, Director, EPC, July 31, 1995 in cooperation with Ken Sherwood, Projects Director, and Charles Bernstein, Poetics Program, SUNY at Buffalo. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 12:11:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: NEW_URL_for_EPC Announcement: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc ------------------------- ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER > C h a n g e o f U R L ------------------------- Please make special note of the fact that the EPC will be moving to a new URL as of September 1, 1995. This move, which has taken many, many hours of work to effect, has been made for the purpose of having a much simpler address for "readers" and contributors to the Center. Instead of the old: http://wings.buffalo.edu/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift You will now find the EPC at: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc which we all think makes much better sense! I will continue to leave the old URL "open" for a while until people get used to the new site. For those of you who have links to the EPC from other sites, please change your link to the new URL. There are new features and there will be more graphics, sound, and just plain (or html) poetry! (PS. Please don't use the new URL until Sept. 1. Though the new location is much more prominent, I'm still stamping out the bugs) See you at our new digs! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:26:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Value in Poetry The question of a "bad" poet or poem in the "parallel tradition," to borrow Corn's vocabulary, really calls up the question of value, which is what I think Bob addresses in Genius. While Pound and Stein make pretty explicit claims for their genius (and Joyce was certainly willing to play the part, tho more cautious in his statements), Zukofsky seems to have been far more defensive about the issue, and ultimately does not stake his work on that. What I think Bob is after is a fresh rereading of all 4 that (1) reads them beyond the transcendentalist heuristics of their ardent fans, who see only glimmers of revealed knowledge (they're not alone in this sycophantic reaction: Spicer, Kerouac and others have all called it forth. Even Merwin gets it for heaven's sake) and (2) looks at what it may be in their own writing that calls forth such nonsense as Kenner, Davenport and Terrell have spewed forth. A very distinct critical problem from the one put forth, say, by the New Critics, who shunned that fawning stance in favor of ultraprofessionalism. Where Bob gets in trouble, and it's minor quibbling on my part to call it that (but to put on the title as much as anything), is in not being focused at all points on which is the target of a given reading. So in that sense he tries to do too much, which oddly replicates what all 4 of those poets do in their masterworks. I don't, by the way, think Bob is announcing himself Pro-Stevens over any of those four (give me that cite, Chris!), tho if you look at the recent work (in Raddle Moon or the chapbook that Ben Friedman did, _Chaim Soutine_, the degree to which Bob is primarly a social satirist (as is Charles B) really comes to the fore. It's an interesting genre to see get such large play and worth noting that both Bob and Charles have generally stayed away from anything of "epic" proportions. The problem of value for my generation is I think sticky. Certainly value exists, but it is not a fixed, transcendental term in my world and that relativism is what drives the Bob Doles of poetry (and the Ross Perots of poetry, too, like Ed Foster) around the bend. Any one of us could name a poet, or several, whose work we do not connect with, because it shares little in the way of our own values. In my case, it would be, say, Susan Howe, whose work seems to me always tepid on the page and appealing to values off the page for its interest. But those are my values and I'm conscious of that. I'm sure that I fit into this same role for other readers too, and that's how the world ends up with surplus values that cause slippage and surprises for us all. Which is why the poetry of 20 years from now won't look the way I expect (or hope or fear) it might, nor the way you imagine either. But I do think that our parallel tradition (quote unquote) adheres and evolves in interesting, positive ways because there is a broader range of shared values, some Venn diagram of which would put myself, Susan Howe, John Taggart, Larry Fagin, Antler and Joy Harjo all into the same circle. And this is what makes discourse possible. The problem is one of knowing where, at any given moment, to put the emphasis. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 18:16:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: delayed response In-Reply-To: <199508190359.UAA24908@sparta.SJSU.EDU> Maria: that was the best renga yet, by far! Since onbody else has responded to Corn's possibly rhetorical question -- yes, I have changed my mind as a result of reading posts on the poetics line -- one example -- I had thought, after reading _A Call in the Midst of the Crowd_ that Alfred Corn must be a witty and thoughtful writer -- having had a few days to review his passed along post, I now see that I must have been badly mistaken. (for "onbody" read "nobody" --- also read Joan retallack's _Errata Suite_ for all you need to know about error) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 22:06:13 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Fri, 18 Aug 1995 19:20:44 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >>On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700, >>Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> >>>On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: >>> >>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>>>> (inspection >>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>>>> kook!" >>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>>>> cleaners >>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. >>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 22:09:49 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:18:02 MDT, Louis Cabri wrote: >> >On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:19:47 -0700, >> >Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >> > >> >>On 8/16, Charles Alexander writes: >> >> >> >>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >> >>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >> >>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to b >e >> >>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hook >s. >> >>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >> >>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >> >>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> alive in our hearse hurts, projective nurse if she is to > go ahead and dance, composing instead of straining muscles, far eyes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:52:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: troubles with genius In-Reply-To: <199508200401.VAA17487@leland.Stanford.EDU> Having been the reader for the Cal Press of Bob P's "Trouble with Genius," I'm reading some of the comments here with puzzlement. I think what Bob is doing is diagnosing modernism as a larger construct--not just the four writers in question. And I certainly don't think he prefers Stevens to Pound for being less ambitious (moreover, Stevens had exactly the same "genius" notions in his own way) but rather is showing the terrible dilemma--still ours today--of wanting on the one hand to write a difficult and complex culturally informed poetry and yet speak to a large audience. Do we think this problem has been solved? As for Ron's comments on the silly things Kenner and Davenport say, what silly things?? I think Davenport is one of the most brilliant critics we have (also a terrific writer). And Kenner, whatever his limitations, can do rings around almost anyone writing on poetry today. Why do we really need to play these games? Marjorie P. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:11:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: troubles with genius In-Reply-To: from "Marjorie Perloff" at Aug 19, 95 09:52:31 pm Speaking as a Canadian reading USAmerican commentary, I have to agree with Marjorie this time. Plus this: Kenner (okay , he's a Canadian) and Davenport can WRITE. I will read them on subjects I dont otherwise much care about. I would add Gass to this short list, too. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:18:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "marketing strategies" In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Aug 19, 95 10:10:51 am I guess David Kellogg's message proves my point. I buy and otherwise acquire lots and lots of poetry books, mags etc, have done for years, and I have never heard of any of those "new formalist" poets he mentions. I guess they dont make it out of the US. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:30:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <199508181015.DAA05997@ix4.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Aug 18, 95 03:15:45 am Ron S. is right again. And it aint just lit and baseball. Can you imagine being Montgomery Clift's friend? Or james Dean? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:33:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "marketing strategies," CAP-L, & the gap (mind it or lose it) In-Reply-To: <93180.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "Charles Alexander" at Aug 17, 95 11:20:49 pm I'd like to say thanks to all those who helpt fill me in on the "new formalists." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 02:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <199508200630.XAA10051@fraser.sfu.ca> On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > Ron S. is right again. And it aint just lit and baseball. Can you > imagine being Montgomery Clift's friend? Or james Dean? > Yeah, the latter - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 02:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Value in Poetry Ron (and, by implication, everybody): The ghostly "presence" Stevens serves in this book (aside from a way to show Zukofsky' s 's fawning) uses him as a kind of "value" to question the book's own gstated guiding assumptions: He's first included in a list of other poets (ELIOT, Williams, HD, and Moore) who, according to perelman "produced poems, rather than life-writing, There is a sense of finitness [as opposed to finitude] and social lacation that is not there in Pound and Stein, certainly." (page 3) This distinction is problematic, of course,and at first seems to be something that is NOT attractive to Perelman (as in Jed Rasula's WAX MUSEUM book)--they lacked a "project" (etc.). I'd want to argue this point and show that the distinction between life-writing and mere "poems" does not seem to apply to many of these poets. But, then I see that Perelman uses Stevens as an example (though, yes, he's not praising Stevens' work per se) of the value of "poems" over "life-writing" and credits him with "a clear, delicately elegaic presentation of the problem"(223)--this is pretty much the standard avant-garde line on him (see Don Byrd---certainly no L's poet's POETICS OF THE COMMON KNOWLEDGE), yet because Perelman is interested in showing what he considers to be the "trouble" with the ZUK, STEIN, POUND....his use of Stevens to 'affirm that there is something outside..." makes me question just what is meant by Perelman's assertion that Stevens work "fits within a socially well- defined sense of poetry." And this opens up the whole can of worms of what is SUBVERSION, of why we read....Do we really believe the canon-makers (or ourselves if we happen to be canon-makers) when they say "this is subverive; read it" any more than we believed the highschool teachers and their force-fed frost. Besides, the (start again).... I guess my question viz-a-viz "debunking" was this---If this book explores (at times relying on the fallacy ad hominen to the point ?) the problematics of a certain kind of writing, and shows the weaknesses of it, the delusions, etc--why doesn't it even attempt to posit an alternative in Moore, HD, etc? Isn't it possible that poetry that DOESN'T ADVERTISE ITSELF as "social criticism" as much as some others do, may be at least as effective--- Presumably, Perelman doesn't find such "empowerment" in any of the modernists (the four he mentions being the CLOSEST they get)--we'll see, I guess, if the answer to marjorie's question--has the problem been solved---comes up when he discusses the work of the in some sense WILLFULLY MARGINALIZED L poets he discusses (though the early "separatist' stance is no doubt crumbling....)-- So, I guess I'm doing that De Man thing--- "the second you rebuke a previous writer for his blindness, you immediately replicate his gesture." -------well, enuf, chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" >>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>>>>> (inspection >>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>>>>> kook!" >>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>>>>> cleaners >>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be >>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks >. >>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 11:11:32 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:59:38 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>>>>>> (inspection >>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>>>>>> kook!" >>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>>>>>> cleaners >>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >to be >>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >hooks >>. >>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 12:21:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Value in Poetry In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 20 Aug 1995 02:51:35 -0400 from Interesting to read Ron, Chris, and Marjorie on Bob P's book. I've only managed to get part way through it so far, so can't respond directly, BUT for me the most provocative prose I've read by Bob was the review-essay in _American Literary History_ a year or so ago, where the project of Charles B gets juxtaposed to the project of Kamau Brathwaite. There it seems to me that Brathwaite comes out on top, gets the nod, whatever, which given the conversation Ron and Chris have been having is curious, no? For Brathwaite's project is surely epic (though not without elements of satire). At any rate it seems to offer--in that essay at least--the model of a politics of poetry Bob P can endorse. Perhaps the essay gets reworked or included in the forthcoming book. If I'm right about Bob P endorsing the Brathwaite model, the implications of that endorsement probably need some discussion. Anybody? The essay ("Write the Power") is in ALH 6.2 (Summer 1994). Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 13:35:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <199508201459.HAA01542@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>>>>> (inspection > >>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>>>>> kook!" > >>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>>>>>>> cleaners > >>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > encore > >>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > to be > >>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > hooks > >. > >>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > darkness > >>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > > fruit > >>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto that sea anemone so like new associate professors clinging singlemindedly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 13:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <53348.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:59:38 -0700, > Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > > >>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>>>>>> (inspection > >>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>>>>>> kook!" > >>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the > > dry > >>>>>>>>> cleaners > >>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > encore > >>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > >to be > >>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > >hooks > >>. > >>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > darkness > >>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > > fruit > >>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>>>>>> a la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 16:19:36 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Sun, 20 Aug 1995 13:35:31 -0500, maria damon wrote: >In message <199508201459.HAA01542@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group >writes: >> >>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >> >>>>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> > encore >> >>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >> to be >> >>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >> hooks >> >. >> >>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> > darkness >> >>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >> > fruit >> >>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >that sea anemone so like new associate professors clinging singlemindedly to tenuous promissory notes, one ear to thunder, fast over Tucson Mountains ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Value in Poetry Yes, Keith, Bob told me about this piece (which is one of the reasons I'm waiting for MARGINALIZATION to come out--for I haven't read it yet, ) and it certainly would offer a different paradigm than what ROn calls "Bob and Charles's....social satire" (which I think is a reductive reading of even Bob's earlier work, much less "chain sauttine"). I am also extremely curious of what Barrett Watten's recent work on Laura (Riding) Jackson consists. Can it be said to be an endorsement? Or would it be the kind of "right-handed endoresement" (I'm left handed) McGann gives. I am especially curious because there are tremendous affinities in the work of Carla Harryman (who Watten is married to--to do an "ad hominen" thing) and Laura Riding (especially "progress of stories") And I will quote in full a Laura Riding poem which can be read allegorically (I suppose) as a kinda law (or Lawn--a la Rosemarie Waldrop) of the excluded middle shown as one and the same with a "parthenogennesis" fantasy not unlike that "glaoumourized" (for academics) by LACAN as "entry into the masculine symbolic" (blah blah)--There is a battle of names here---SHE'S only a monomaniac because HE'S parthenogenetic! THAT ANCIENT LINE Old Mother Act and her child Fact-of-Act Lived practically as one, He so proud of his monomaniac mother, She so proud of her parthenogenetic son. After her death of course With his looks and education Lived on the formal compliments That other phrases paid him; And had, of his ceremony, one daughter Who remarkably resembled Her paternal and only grandmother. Indeed, between Act and Matter-of-Fact Was such consanguineous sympathy That the disappearance of the matronymic In the third generation of pure logic Did not detract from the authority Of this and later versions Of the original progenitive argument. Long flourished that estate And never died that self-engendering line-out. Scion followed after scion Until that ancient blood ran nearly thin, But Verily, In Truth and Beyond Doubt Renewed the inheritance--and And So On. There is a "he" absent from the fist line of the second stanza (maybe other erratua too)--I can see the reviewers now "Almost as good as Silliman's MICROSOFT BUYS CATHOLIC CHURCH piece"---I'm suprised no one has yet come to Susan Howe's defense against Ron. On that point, I won't (or can't). Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 17:36:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: from "Alan Sondheim" at Aug 20, 95 02:36:24 am Hey, friend, want a ride in my Porsch Spyder? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:25:47 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Comments: To: MRoberts@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU Sybylla Feminist Press Collective 'She's Fantastical' Book launch Sybylla is the oldest extant feminist press in Australia, run by a voluntary collective, and is committed to independent feminist publishing. Sybylla's latest book, entitled 'She's Fantastical', is being launched on 27 August 1995, by Louise Adler, arts editor for 'The Age', at 5.30pm at Budinskis Theatre of Exile, 380 Lygon St, Carlton, Melbourne. 'She's Fantastical' will be the first anthology of Australian women's speculative fiction, fantasy and magical realism to be published in Australia. It is edited by Lucy Sussex and Judith Buckrich with a foreword written by Ursula K Le Guin. There will be readings at the launch by Ania Walwicz, berni m.janssen and Rosaleen Love. 'She's Fantastical' will retail for $22.95 and is distributed by Manic Exposeur. For more inquiries regarding the launch please ring Lisa Fletcher on (03) 9481 0268. Inquiries regarding publicity and promotions should be directed to Sarah Endacott (03) 9853 2744 and Kathy Miner (03) 347 0348. email inquiries to Karen Porter - address: chapter@connexus.apana.org.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 22:11:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <199508210036.RAA03323@fraser.sfu.ca> On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > Hey, friend, want a ride in my Porsch Spyder? > what if i said yes. . ? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:58:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: New Formalism The New Formalism is pretty Old Hat. Here are a couple of paragraphs I wrote maybe two or three years ago: Official participants in the New Formalism are harder to identify with certainty than those who constituted "The Movement" in England. New Formalism is perhaps best described as a diffused reaction on the part of poets who are separated geographically, by age, and by any number of other differences of background and intellectual conviction. Poets who perceive themselves as New Formalists are not necessarily admired by other poets who have--without seeking any such affiliation--been lumped into that category. Some actively resist being called New Formalists, feeling a disdain similar to that felt by Elizabeth Bishop towards those who identified her as a candidate for inclusion in collections of poems exclusively by women. At this point I would like to insert a personal note. In the 1970s and early 1980s, The Greensboro Review, of which I was then editor, was printing--along with much else--work by poets who had trained themselves to handle the old meters with rare grace and to employ them in rendering contemporary subjects; three or four of these poets were former students of Yvor Winters. I did not imagine at the time that we might be running a stud farm for an identifiable breed of poetry, and I find it irritating to see the rapidity with which the livestock is being propagated, raised to marketable size, and butchered; but as Randall Jarrell said long ago of the scholar/critic's opinion of the poet, "Pig! What do you know about bacon!" The magazine published some of the earliest poems by both Timothy Steele and Alan Shapiro, who have come to be identified, at least to some degree and in some contexts, perhaps with increasing discomfort at being so designated, as New Formalists; also appearing were hard-core Wintersians such as Kenneth Fields, Charles Gullans, and Raymond Oliver. But we printed poems, too, that did not fit any conventional form but which seemed to be aiming at organized patterns that were metrically satisfying, and many that were in no discernible pattern, such as one of Dave Smith's earliest and a poem or two by Charles Simic. Sharing the space in one number of the magazine published in 1975 were Steele and Fields, but the same issue included a highly experimental "Mondrian" poem by Amon Liner (who died soon after publication of that work) which I now recognize to be immediately anticipatory of "Language" poetry. I cannot think what label to apply to the poems there and in other issues which displayed a willingess to employ as-yet-unrecognized structural elements, such as those by May Swenson and some by Robert Morgan. "Reconstructive" has too many accidental associations, whether academic or regional, but "New Formalism," even if it were accurate, seems worse--because the label really has acquired a reactionary following and as T. S. Eliot (in "Little Gidding") put it: "We cannot revive old factions / We cannot restore old policies / Or follow an antique drum." Would "New Structuralism" seem anything but an alias? In any case, at the time that we were publishing these poems the word "formalist" never crossed my mind. But since then the New Formalist movement has congealed and has roused considerable opposition. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania shaunanne writes: > On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > > Hey, friend, want a ride in my Porsch Spyder? > > > > what if i said yes. . ? so, forgive my costant questions, what's a Porsch Spyder? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:50:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" Charles Alexander wrote: >On Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:59:38 -0700, >Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >>to be >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >>hooks >>>. >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:19:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: <303897a74b60002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > shaunanne writes: > > On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > > > > Hey, friend, want a ride in my Porsch Spyder? > > > > > > > what if i said yes. . ? > > so, forgive my costant questions, what's a Porsch Spyder? > the car james dean died in. . . evry rare. . . very cool. . . very spooky ST ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:36:22 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > encore > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > >>to be > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > >>hooks > >>>. > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > darkness > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > fruit > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:53:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: spyder In-Reply-To: On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Shaunanne Tangney wrote: > On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > > > shaunanne writes: > > > On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > > > > > > Hey, friend, want a ride in my Porsch Spyder? > > > > > > > > > > what if i said yes. . ? > > > > so, forgive my costant questions, what's a Porsch Spyder? > > > > the car james dean died in. . . evry rare. . . very cool. . . very spooky > ST > George drives a grey volvo, . . . very somber . . . very practical . . . very common. Lindz (the burster of bubbles) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:36:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: spyder In-Reply-To: from "Lindz Williamson" at Aug 21, 95 11:53:34 am Hey Lindz, and everyone interested: I only have sandals, but I can fly! George could too, only he eats too many hashbrowns. (I'm still hoping someone can answer my Blaser question. Pleeeez.) > > On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Shaunanne Tangney wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > > > > > shaunanne writes: > > > > On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey, friend, want a ride in my Porsch Spyder? > > > > > > > > > > > > > what if i said yes. . ? > > > > > > so, forgive my costant questions, what's a Porsch Spyder? > > > > > > > the car james dean died in. . . evry rare. . . very cool. . . very spooky > > ST > > > > George drives a grey volvo, . . . very somber . . . very practical . > . . very common. > > > Lindz (the burster of bubbles) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 18:11:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: favorite car word >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >>to be >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >>hooks >>>. >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart the tern hangs a little arc and drops, hard, up with ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:24:54 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: New Formalism Comments: To: KIRBYS@FAGAN.UNCG.EDU Dear H.T., Thanks for your paras on the New Formalism, which I've only recently learnt to distinguish from the Nude Formalism where my heart I have to say still lies. Be that as it may, your particulars are apprec iated. Where might I find an official history, but? I know what you are saying, which in a sense is what they all say: well, we're all different you know and disagree with and resent being associated with one another, and the very idea of being referred to as A MOVEMENT makes us queasy, it's reifying and commodifying, and its all the camp followers who've produced it and anyway its Old Hat. OK. But maybe I have this wrong? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 20:33:48 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" Comments: To: Hank Lazer On 21 Aug 95 at 13:36, Hank Lazer wrote: > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dr > y > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > encore > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > > >>to be > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > > >>hooks > > >>>. > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > darkness > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > > fruit > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space to blue print, graphic sheets of shadow ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 21:48:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <199508220132.UAA06977@zoom.bga.com> odd that how this goes on and on it looks pictorially more and more like substance, words fractured, arrows cutting through to the flesh of it, no questioning ideological or political contents, are there any? effusion on the right-hand side matched by the arrows on the left, double-columns like glas, everything playing off the fissure, maybe words are permanently corrupted at this point, bytes bitten? this space the beginning or end of writing? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 19:57:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Howe's Dfens In-Reply-To: <199508210357.UAA23495@sparta.SJSU.EDU> I suppose, being a reader and all, I _am_ one of those things outside the text that Howe's poems are supposed by Ron to rely upon -- but ain't that just the way, here I am inside the text after all -- JM's ideas about radial reading may, I guess, be an argument for such poetry, but it appears to me that there is no good reason to believe that other poems, Ron's own for example, somehow do not have the effect of sending us to other texts, even if it's to another of Ron's books. -- there is always that polopony to track down -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:07:46 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Mon, 21 Aug 1995 21:48:44 -0400, Alan Sondheim wrote: >odd that how this goes on and on it looks pictorially more and more like >substance, words fractured, arrows cutting through to the flesh of it, no >questioning ideological or political contents, are there any? effusion on >the right-hand side matched by the arrows on the left, double-columns like >glas, everything playing off the fissure, maybe words are permanently >corrupted at this point, bytes bitten? this space the beginning or end of >writing? What does it mean for words to be corrupted, permanently or temporarily? I wonder, although I appreciate the qualifying "maybe," as well as the provisional nature of this entire statement/question. But I don't think of words as some ideal, corruptible -- rather as continually evolving matter. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:12:18 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:36:22 CST6CDT, Hank Lazer wrote: >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dr >y >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> encore >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >> >>to be >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >> >>hooks >> >>>. >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> darkness >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >> fruit >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space with guarded reluctance, waking the dream of eternal flight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 00:52:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <92468.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > On Mon, 21 Aug 1995 21:48:44 -0400, > Alan Sondheim wrote: > > >odd that how this goes on and on it looks pictorially more and more like > >substance, words fractured, arrows cutting through to the flesh of it, no > >questioning ideological or political contents, are there any? effusion on > >the right-hand side matched by the arrows on the left, double-columns like > >glas, everything playing off the fissure, maybe words are permanently > >corrupted at this point, bytes bitten? this space the beginning or end of > >writing? > > What does it mean for words to be corrupted, permanently or temporarily? I > wonder, although I appreciate the qualifying "maybe," as well as the > provisional nature of this entire statement/question. But I don't think of > words as some ideal, corruptible -- rather as continually evolving matter. Literally, that they're broken by the word-wrap; figuratively, that the renga has turned into a renga-machine perhaps, into a word-machine... What evolves when there are too many words, when words - could there be a political economy of words - lose their force/tethering within a culture - What about the renga-machine, say, and the production of on-line poetry - What if there is too much information (I don't like that word at the moment and here), one becoming flooding? Alan > > charles alexander > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 22:00:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" [D > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > encore > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > >>to be > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > >>hooks > >>>. > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > darkness > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > fruit > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 01:10:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <199508220500.WAA00186@well.com> On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > [D > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the > dry > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > prescience > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > encore > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > moments > > >>to be > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > were > > >>hooks > > >>>. > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > darkness > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > > fruit > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying regions where tongues were cut, women raped, no one had the right to speak ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 01:20:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Value in Poetry Have to admit I was impressed by Bob's book-- the close reading of Pound especially-- & this may show how closely I (don't) read-- but my problem w/ it was the framing, i.e. genius vs. not a genius. To state it more clearly-- By objecting to their "genius claims" is Perelman valuing "normative discourse" over the trundlings of the four cited geniuses? & if so, why wld one want to do that. Is it a populist book? Seems to me the claims, or more accurately-- the enactment of authority, within normative discourse is much more problematic than any of those four *pointing out* their own genius. --Rod PS- Is Ross Perot a genius? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 01:23:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Howe's Dfens For me Susan's work is first of all an auditory experience. She has as good an ear as anyone ever has had. Beyond that I see her work as being about loss and temporal erosion. Those themes aren't just referred to; they're enacted within the unstable legibility of her pages. Since Ron framed his remarks as an example of personal taste, however, Susan doesn't really need a defense. No one should be scapegoated at Mr. Corn's request. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 22:37:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Thesen In-Reply-To: <950822011819_60212846@mail06.mail.aol.com> I'm reading Sharon thesen's Aurara right now and it is soooooo gooood! I also just today picked up Bowering"s Rocky Mountian Foot at a used book store on Broadway, I'll get back to you later on what I think, however the Bio is kind of funny. About the Author His Grandfather was a circuit rider who travelled south of Edmonton/ His father was born in the province. So George Bowering has ancestral connections with the Alberta he writes about so knowingly in Rocky Mountian Foot. "I was all those things that other poets always are on the dust jackets before they became poets." -George Bowering 1968. Hee heee, Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <363337062C6@as.ua.edu> from "Hank Lazer" at Aug 21, 95 01:36:22 pm > > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best mare and the storm in the glass of water's > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dr > y > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > encore > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > > >>to be > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > > >>hooks > > >>>. > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > darkness > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > > fruit > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > to tapioca, from brown space to hot chocolate, from Republican to ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:17:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania In-Reply-To: from "Shaunanne Tangney" at Aug 20, 95 10:11:00 pm Actually, my favourite film of James Dean was an early TV program in which he played a petulant jilted teenage lover in a jukebox soda shop. And my favourite photo of him was that one in *Evergreen Review* where he's wearing his striped shirt at a ballet class. I think he was there with Eartha Kitt. . . . I may have a darg grey Volvo but it's got an Arthur Blythe tape in the deck. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:25:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dr >y >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> encore >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >> >>to be >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >> >>hooks >> >>>. >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> darkness >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >> fruit >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space to a purer white described without even a thought and carried to another ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:31:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Monday, 21 August, Charles Alexander wrote: >On Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:36:22 CST6CDT, >Hank Lazer wrote: > >>> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >>> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >>> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >>> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >>> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >>> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the d >r >>y >>> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >>> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >>> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >>> encore >>> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >>> >>to be >>> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >>> >>hooks >>> >>>. >>> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >>> darkness >>> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >>> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >>> fruit >>> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >>> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >>> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >>> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >>> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >>> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >with guarded reluctance, waking the dream of eternal flight to say something in a hoarse voice nearly breaking near its own inurgency ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:32:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" > [D >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the >dry >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >prescience >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> encore >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >moments >> >>to be >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams >were >> >>hooks >> >>>. >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> darkness >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >> fruit >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:24:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <199508220607.XAA28024@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > > > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best mare and the storm in the glass of water's > > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & > > > > neo-colonizing > > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, > > > > oh,ho, > > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > > > > the > dr > > y > > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > > > > prescienc > e > > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter > > > > chose > > > encore > > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > > > > moment > s > > > >>to be > > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > > > > wer > e > > > >>hooks > > > >>>. > > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > > darkness > > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > > > > soft > > > fruit > > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > > to tapioca, from brown space to hot chocolate, from Republican to angel steeped in angelology deeper than rilke's or blake's, by virtue of ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > [D > >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > > > the > >dry > >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > >prescience > >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > >> encore > >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > >moments > >> >>to be > >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > >were > >> >>hooks > >> >>>. > >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > >> darkness > >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > > > soft > >> fruit > >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying > premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: movies abt poetry just saw the postman last night, i mean the movie, not my local mail carrier, and was very moved despite differences w/ the movie's conception of poetry as (only) "metaphor," and despite a somewhate facile objection to the insistence on Neruda's "wisdom," tho even that was skillfully undercut by the ending of the movie, when he's clearly wondering if he did wrong by inciting the postman to poetry/politics/death. what do you all think, in terms of it being a movie, like dead poets' society (ugh!) that "makes a case" for poetry as centrally important to people's wellbeing? others i shd know about? recommended? what do you all think?--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:44:06 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <3039e9204ec5002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group > writes: > > > [D > > >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > > > > the > > >dry > > >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > > >prescience > > >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > >> encore > > >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > > >moments > > >> >>to be > > >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > > >were > > >> >>hooks > > >> >>>. > > >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > >> darkness > > >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > > > > soft > > >> fruit > > >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > > >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying > > premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought > whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of > attitude problems? Dust off the dark wood and make your choice ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:15:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" Is it really a question of too many words? What I like about the renga form here is its extensibility, the way it displays words' continuation, & through multiplication can't be said to have a "writer"--the "force" that words have lost, maybe? and when absent, the language becomes a "machine"? The platitude often cited about digital technology is its infinite reproducibility, the fact that there is no loss in data from generation to generation. Which really means that the data *stays the same*. Words, of course, can be copied exactly, but they also tend to spin off in multiple directions, and change in almost imperceptible shifts. So maybe machinic instances of language are helpful, when these shifts of words (between people) can be made perceptible. Also I would hesitate to call the renga on-line poetry because the line has already been broken and rejoined several times. >Literally, that they're broken by the word-wrap; figuratively, that the >renga has turned into a renga-machine perhaps, into a word-machine... >What evolves when there are too many words, when words - could there be a >political economy of words - lose their force/tethering within a culture >- What about the renga-machine, say, and the production of on-line poetry >- What if there is too much information (I don't like that word at the >moment and here), one becoming flooding? > >Alan __________ Issa Clubb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:29:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu One challenge of being hooked up to the Poetics Digest option involves trying to respond to six messages at once instead of just hitting the reply key. But here goes. While I'm not sure that Susan Howe needs me to come to her defense as she lies there swooning on her fainting couch (poetry *is* like a swoon, y' know, with this difference . . . the Klupzy Girl said), but I don't mind doing so, because I love her work. But I also appreciate Ron going out on a limb with his original comment; the question came up of poets whom one does not especially warm to within one's own alleged tradition, and Ron was willing to name names. I find Susan's work very compelling in the very terms that Ron finds it tepid, on the page--that is, in terms of her wonderful ear and her visual design of a page--that is, I like it, among other reasons, for the aural and material values that Ron finds lacking, if I understand him right. The other point on which I diverge from you, Ron (and I'd like to hear more from you if you're willing/interested), has to do with your assertion that the value/interest of Howe's work lies in extra-textual concerns. ("Extra-paginal?" This also sounds oddly close to that old New Critical bete noire, the "extra-literary.") I'm surprised that someone who's always been so attuned to the social components of writing, reading, and reception as you have should use as the basis of your critique what sounds like a dismissal of or skepticism toward those same social components. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something in your comments. Also, didn't you once tell me that Susan was the only writer in the Tree who made her own selections of her own work? Was that your choice because of your ambivalence about the work? At her insistence? Inquiring minds, etc. Or at least mine does. The larger issue, though, has to do with the differences within a movement that underlie the public constructions (usually, though not always, by "outsiders") of that movement's homogeneity. To me this is more interesting than questions of who likes or doesn't like whose work. The value of Ron's post on Howe is that it points up the inevitable fissures within so-called "so-called Language writing," fissures that were probably always present but that tend to come to the surface later rather than sooner. This is one interesting and instructive part of Bob P's Language Writing and Literary History book, which I've read in manuscript: he discusses internal difference ("where the meanings are," remember) within LP, asking some very fundamental skeptical questions about some of the work of, say, Bruce Andrews and (in the essay that Keith Tuma mentioned) Charles B. So I don't read Bob's book as a "bunking" of LP after some kind of Bloominan "debunking" of his modernist predecessors; it operates with a rather more complex sense of literary and personal history than that, so that while it's partly involved with bunking (I like that term, Chris), it's also attentive to points of difference, disagreement, and to the bringing together of strange bedfellows (O'Hara and Barthes). But enough on a book that is not yet a book, that no-one's read. I have to agree with Marjorie on The Trouble with Genius. As I read it, the four writers engage Perelman precisely because of the conflicting impulses within their work; the internal contradictions are generative, not "problems" or "weaknesses." Just like the internal contradictions within a poetic "movement." And that connects (I hope!) with what Tom Kirby-Smith said about the New Formalists. Granted, Tom, that like any movement the NF is much less homogeneous that it might first appear. But remember too that this was not a label that some evil critic stuck on all these innocent diverse writers who were just sitting out doing their thing. This is a self-consciously self-constituted group; even though some people might resist the label, lack any sense of group identification, or have lost it later (as you suggest Tim Steele has), the fact is that a group of writers (predominantly male, as seems nearly always usual) with shared concerns agreed to present themselves as a group, a movement, and set out to produce polemics and manifestoes designed to represent and further their work and interests. In the mid-late '80s they even explicitly talked about themselves as an alternative avant-garde to LP. This is my sense of the history, anyway. Am I way off? Names associated with the movement in these formative stages would include Frederick Turner, Frederick Feirstein, Robert McDowell, Dick Allen, Dana Gioia, just to mention the main polemicists (editors of essay collections, editors of special issues of mags., writers of manifestoes). And from a pretty early stage, fellow travellers would include Robert McPhillips, Brad Leithauser, Mary Jo Salter, Molly Peacock, Timothy Steele, Charles Martin, Paul Lake, Mark Jarman, Gertrude Schnackenberg. A diverse group geographically, professionally, and in other ways, but they did constitute themselves in print as a group with identifiable (and self-identified) concerns. Differences--those too. I hear that Dana Gioia is putting together a NF anthology that does not include Dick Allen, a founder member. A bit like an LP anthology without Silliman, Bernstein, Watten, Andrews, or whomever. One more thought on Susan Howe. I have no desire whatever to resurrect the soul/spirit thread: but surely ("surely") one reason that the Apex of the M-ers take Howe and John Taggart as models is that there's a strong sense of the spiritual (however unconventionally defined) in both writers, and that this is one point of difference between them and many so-called so-called so-called so-called so-called Language writers. And no, I'm not going to try and define "spiritual." David Bromige writes that the most charged points for him in reading even writers that he cares about are those points "where interest and disaffection war" in his reading. This seems to me a good summary of how Bob approaches the writers in Trouble with Genius. Maria, everyone knows that a Porsche Spyder is one of those little creatures that builds yts web on the inside of your Porsche wyndeshield whyn you leave said Porsche to gather dyst in the garage too long. Talking of too long . . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:38:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Oh shit, it's him again Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu This post is much shorter. Promise. Just wanted to let you all know that the keynote speakers are in place for the Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference. The keynote creative speaker will be fiction writer Stephen Wright; the keynote critical (uncreative?) speaker will be Rachel Blau DuPlessis. Rachel will also do a poetry reading. We may also get be able to set up a talk by Patrick O'Donnell, editor of Modern Fiction Studies and a good writer on pomo. fiction, but that's not confirmed. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:43:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: Language Poetry and Music A lot of American poetry--poetry anywhere, for that matter--seems to grow out of music in some way or another. As everyone points out, Dickinson's poems are kin to the hymns she heard as a girl in Amherst; Whitman is regularly compared to biblical phrasing which itself was an effort at rendering in English qualities of Hebrew cantillation; and Langaston Hughes used Blues and jazz as a basis for some poems. There's a whole book that argues that one can explain everything in Whitman in terms of opera. Cage's methods seem too mechanical to me to have had much effect on other people's poetry (besides his own). I was wondering if there is any musical tradition, and composer, any kind of music that one can connect with Language Poetry. I always think of Stravinsky when I read The Waste Land--Pound and Amy Lowell had been preaching Stravinsky as a model. Any help on this? Tom Kirby-Smith English Department UNC-Greensboro Greensboro NC 27412 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 13:12:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <3039e8914baa002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> rev test > tast; sort tast > tost; rev tast > tyst eliminate arrowed lines > > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & > > > > oh,ho, > > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, > > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > prescienc > > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > e > e > > > >>to be > > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > > the > > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > encore > > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > > > chose > > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of angel steeped in angelology deeper than rilke's or blake's, by virtue of > > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > neo-colonizing > > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > to tapioca, from brown space to hot chocolate, from Republican to > > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > dr > > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter > > > > wer > > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > s > > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best mare and the storm in the glass of water's > > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > > >>hooks > > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > > darkness > > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > > > > soft > > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > > fruit > > > > moment > > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > y > > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 13:58:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Michael Hareper's Titles In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 11 Aug 1995 08:53:54 -0500 from Michael Harper is a University Professor here at Brown, and lives in Providence. His most recent book of poems is _Healing Song for the Inner Ear._ Others include _Images of Kin_ (for which he won the Melville-Cane Award); _Dear John, Dear Coltraine_; _History is Your Own Heartbeat_ (winner of the 1978 Black Academy of Arts and Letters Award); _Nightmare Begins Responsibility_; and _Debridement._ A new collection seems to be in the works. I have to confess to finding _Debridement_ the most remarkable of the texts -- the role of history seeps in in disturbing, challenging ways. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:13:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" at Aug 22, 95 12:43:25 pm Well, my roomate and I went to a local spot called the Glass Slipper for what was to be a Telepoetics hookup with Toronto. ONe of the readers was Catriona Strang, a local language poet, and she performed a few pieces of her alphabet with musical accompanyment. It was piano, clarinet and stand-up bass which was either used as a tonal context or punctuation. I think her husband was the clarinet player, known for playing two at once. I'm still not too sure what I think of it, though. A lot of the time it seemed to be music miming the delivery of words. Angular jarring tires me after a while. But, then again, this is a simplification. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:44:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: favorite moities in moire > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > encore > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments > >>to be > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were > >>hooks > >>>. > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > darkness > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > fruit > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying and rigging it, as we drop the clipboards and come running ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:47:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: mormon in the armoire >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dr >y >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> encore >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments >> >>to be >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were >> >>hooks >> >>>. >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> darkness >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >> fruit >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space to a purer white described without even a thought and carried to another plasm, another phone call from the regional director ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:57:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Padgett's Definition >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the >dry >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >prescience >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> encore >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >moments >> >>to be >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams >were >> >>hooks >> >>>. >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> darkness >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft >> fruit >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought balloons rising prominently from the ears of giraffes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 17:20:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: troubles with genius/floors of congress Mr Silliman Could you speak to the stickiness, for your generation, of value? Had there been previously a kind of exchange value in the poetry business? I'll trade you a mint Eliot for two Yvor Winters and a Robert Silliman Hillyer? --What makes discourse possible is _exclusion_ from the venn diagram? Prof Perloff re: games What is there besides critical assessment (offhand or otherwise)? Is there some transhistorical solution to the problem of a poetry of complexity for everybody? Yes. Also, I'm going to end the war in Vietnam. List at large Is there really an avantgarde tradition in North America totally unaware of Wallace Stevens? Willa J How do I sign up for the Bernadette Mayer fanclub? Your fan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:56:59 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: How Hear Howe? For Rae & Alan I must admit to going back and forth a bit in my admiration of Susan Howe's work. But it has been the visual, spiritual (I don't want to define that either, Alan), and historical elements in her work which have attracted me most deeply, although at times have attracted some argument as well. The sound of the work, however, has always been problematic to me. I would find it impossible to defend your statement, Rae, that "She has as good an ear as anyone ever has had." So if you or Alan might comment on how you hear her, how that ear shows itself, what informs her ear, I would love to hear (sorry) such discussion. And, to somewhat contradict what I've just said, I do admit that there are some marvelously sounded pages in Articulation of Sound Forms in Time (I'm thinking particularly of the four pages beginning with "rest chondriacal lunacy / velc cello viable toil / quench conch uncannunc / drumm amonoosuck ythian", but in general it is still not the sound of Howe which makes me read her work, as it is with any number of other writers, including you, Rae. all best, charles alexander [===========^^============] [ <> ] chax press [ maybe a <> pages ] [ time <> letters ] phone & fax: 612-721-6063 [ upon <> frames ] [ once <> motion ] e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu [ <> ] [===========vv============] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:59:47 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500, maria damon wrote: >In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion group >writes: >> > [D >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at >> > > the >> >dry >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >> >prescience >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> >> encore >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >> >moments >> >> >>to be >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams >> >were >> >> >>hooks >> >> >>>. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> >> darkness >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently >> > > soft >> >> fruit >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >> >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying >> premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought >whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of I'm not biting on this, Maria, no matter how you sing it ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:34:47 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: same post, attempt #3 In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit of subject's object status, violent transformation la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten alive in our hearse hurts, projective nurse if she is to go ahead and dance, composing instead of straining muscles, far eyes out, transplanted organs speak, the idiom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:07:12 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: movies abt poetry >others i shd know about? recommended? am always happy to recommend chris mann's "poetry in motion"-- the long angelic closeup of bp nichol at th end of the 4 horsemen piece is worth th price of admission, as also baraka's "wailers"... luigi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:25:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? Dear Charles, Yours is a difficult - probably impossible - question for me to answer well (given that I'm not going to take the time to get one of her books and analyze its sound patterns). All I can say is that when I see one of her poems I delight in reading it out loud to myself. I'm sure this involves the usual suspects: assonance, consonance, cadence, etc. Of course, I'm interested in the historical contexts her work invokes. As everyone knows, she's interested in historical elisions and effacements. Somehow the look and sound of her poems not only suits but dramatizes these issues (for me). This is what happens on the page (to get back to the point Ron raised). I feel like everything I'm saying is a cliche. Form fitting content, etc. And, apart from that, I can't believe we're being asked by these Formalists (old or new) to prove that "free verse" is poetry. Are we caught in some sort of time warp here? Do we really have anything to prove to these Cap-L people? Well, I'm getting long-winded. Gotta go. Rae ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:55:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" >On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > >> In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion gro >up >> writes: >> > > [D >> > >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizin >g >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho >, >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at >> > > > the >> > >dry >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >> > >prescience >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chos >e >> > >> encore >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >> > >moments >> > >> >>to be >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams >> > >were >> > >> >>hooks >> > >> >>>. >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> > >> darkness >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently >> > > > soft >> > >> fruit >> > >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> > >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> > >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> > >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> > >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> > >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> > >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> > >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> > >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> > >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> > >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> > >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> > >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >> > >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying >> > premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought >> whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of >> attitude problems? Dust off the dark wood and make your choice between the glove and a beneathive place where tiny places mood themselves ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:31:34 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: favourite bar word: jug In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best mare and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit of subject's object status, violent transformation la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space to tapioca, from brown space to hot chocolate, from Republican to ranchland desserts fried in fat. Thus "abstract" art & poetry became increasingly ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:34:32 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: combines In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit of subject's object status, violent transformation la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying regions where tongues were cut, women raped, no one had the right to speak that side of the Thomson-owned newspaper - which ripped as the ring-pierced tongue pushed through to ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? I've had a thought to write something for some time called "Hearing Oppen Reading Howe"-- early on in my poetry (self)educaytion I had a tape of Oppen but no books by him, & a copy of _Pythagorean Silence_ which I heard as I read in Oppen's cadence-- it still seems to me to flow that way."That way" being the way Oppen read his post-Numerous work. I don't hear SH's other work that way-- seems to me she has a fine ear & the best way to decide if you think so is to hear her read. Anyone have tapes? I've heard her once, wonderful music & very theatrical as well. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Five Islands Press Launch FIVE ISLANDS PRESS IN ASSOCIATION WITH SCARP MAGAZINE invites you to the NEW POETS SERIES 3 BOOK LAUNCH Saturday 26 August 'Varuna' Katoomba 2pm. To be launched by Peter Bishop, Varuna Writers' Centre Thursday 31 August Gleebooks, Glebe Point Road, Glebe 7.30pm. To be launched by Neil James, NSW Ministry for the Arts. Saturday 2 September Victorian Writers' Centre 6pm. To be launched by Ron Pretty Five Island Press. The books in New Poets Series 3 are: Karen Attard - Whisper Dark, MTC Cronin - Zoetrope, Lisa Jacobson - Hair & Skin & Teeth, Peter Minter - Rhythm in a Dorsal Fin, Sue L Nicholls - Ultimately Female, Mark Reid - Bitter Suite. Each book costs $7.50, all six books cost $35.00. A bound volume containing all six books costs $20.00. (All prices Australian dollars). For further information contact Five Island Press PO Box U34 Wollongong University NSW 2500 Australia. ************************ Australian Writing OnLine is a publicity and distribution service for Australian writers and publishers. For further information please email us at M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au, write to AWOL PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia, phone (02) 747 5667 or fax (02) 747 2802. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 21:06:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music This info. is likely known to many on the list tho certainly not all-- a few direct connections to music re l.p.-- The Rova Saxophone Quartet (let's call it "new music")-- Lyn Hejinian is wed to a member, Larry Ochs. Carla Harryman was their manager (or something like that) for many years. Strongly recommend a recent recording of theirs called _Pipe Dreams_. Also, Bruce Andrews' significant one is dancer Sally Silvers, they have worked together w/ many newmusic sorts including John Zorn, Bruce often composes music for Sally's company. L.H. knows Zorn well, as does Tom Mandel I believe. I once asked Lyn what music she listened to when she writes, she sd she doesn't, which surprised me, as I almost always do-- the Benedetti tapes of Bird are a favorite. Also, just to say, to characterize Cage as "mechanical" seems to me to show a lack of knowledge of his work-- which is fine, but I felt a necessity to say that. The number of questions he had to ask for any given piece as well as the artistic skill he brought to the act of composing were anything but "mechanical." Also, Ashbery, O'Hara, Berrigan, others I'm sure, have stated the importance of his music to their work. --Rod H.T.Kirby-Smith wrote: >Cage's methods seem too mechanical to me to have had much effect on >other people's poetry (besides his own). I was wondering if there is >any musical tradition, and composer, any kind of music that one can >connect with Language Poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:25:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: mormon in the armoire In message <950822163805_60663502@mail04.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > the dr > >y > >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > prescience > >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > >> encore > >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > moments > >> >>to be > >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > were > >> >>hooks > >> >>>. > >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > >> darkness > >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > soft > >> fruit > >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > to a purer white described without even a thought and carried to another > plasm, another phone call from the regional director of miasmal blankness, white to the core of whiteness only ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:26:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <72369.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500, > maria damon wrote: > > >In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion > > grou > p > >writes: > >> > [D > >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & > > > > neo-colonizing > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially > > > > several > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, > > > > oh,ho, > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > >> > > the > >> >dry > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > >> >prescience > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter > > > > chose > >> >> encore > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > >> >moments > >> >> >>to be > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the > > > > streams > >> >were > >> >> >>hooks > >> >> >>>. > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds > > > > of > >> >> darkness > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. > > > > Likewise > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > >> > > soft > >> >> fruit > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > >> >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > >> >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying > >> premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought > >whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of > I'm not biting on this, Maria, no matter how you sing it oy, i get reprimanded in public for my lines, my worst POETICS nightmare ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:48:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan E. Dunn" Subject: pardon my formalism Ryan Knighton's *Inevitable Renga* (and Maria Damon's additions) is the first piece I've seen in my relatively recent time on the list that has played with the medium of the screen - the first cyberrenga. I don't read the rengas because, I don't have the time (I vote for a separate renga discussion list to spare those of us with limited time in cyberspace) and I find their aura of competative cleverness anxiety producing. But I'm the nervous sort. Plus the rengas are practically unreadable on my grad-school-vintage-late-eighties 286 pc with a teeny tiny black&white screen. I did see the rengas once on a lovely 17-inch color Sun Microsystems Monitor and the added lines were lighted up in green and it seemed really nifty. So in some ways they are rather technologically/economically privileged poems -- after all, they are for those who have access to this technology not to mention Spiders and Volvos however ironically alluded to. Anyways, the renga content (or what I've skimmed of them) seems to have a rather hard-copy understanding of form. Seems funny that, paradoxically, the net gives us a wider access to a narrower audience and--as the technology stands today--the net provides us with a medium that both expands the page and (visually and economically) contracts its readability. Which brings me to Susan Howe, whose poetry is hardly tepid on the page (for me) as the Awede edition of Articulation of Sound Forms is one example of powerful use of typography and visual poetics. Despite the purported bravery of "naming names" I have to question this desire to prove ourselves as critics by flexing our critical muscles and citing examples of what we consider to be *inferior* poetry. I agree with Chris S that there is the question of whether we are "debunking what has yet to be bunked". While I am not a "Creative Writing 101 it's good if you think its good" relativist, I do have to question this adversarial model (so fashionable in academia) in which we show our intellectual prowess by saying something is weak (I like to think of this as the Beavis and Butthead *this sucks/this rules* model of criticism.) This seems part of the same school that believes that the purpose of having a discussion is to change someone's mind (I'm right/you're wrong). It's not that we can't talk about *quality* per se its just that coughing up an example of a *bad* experimental writer does not seem to be an especially interesting way to illustrate that we are discerning critics. After all, being dismissive of a critic/poet/*name* says more about one's position of power than it says about one's critical faculties. It's a kind of jostling for position. That's the game, isn't it? Or maybe I'm just pissy after having to trod through too many rengaposts. I can't help but think, however, that Susan Howe would be amused at her role in this discussion as the Anne Hutchinsonesque sacraficial *text* -- the monstrous body that disconnects/relies on powers beyond the confines of accepted references -- that is held up as a scapegoat for Corn-as-Puritan-father demanding that we eject our demons and name names. Susan E. Dunn sedunn@s-word.stanford.edu "The chief and primary cause of this rapid increase in nervousness is *Modern Civilization* which is distinguished from the ancient by these five characteristics: the steam engine, the telegraph, the sciences, the periodical press, and the mental activity of women." - George Beard *American Nervousness* 1881 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:27:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Michael Hareper's Titles In-Reply-To: Message of 08/22/95 at 13:58:26 from EL500005@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU How exciting to read Gale Nelson's good words for Harper's "Debridement"! an undervalued & underread book. I thought I was its only devotee. Especially its title sequence, which (in my eyes at least) looks stronger & stronger as the years pass. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 21:06:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: mormon in the armoire >In message <950822163805_60663502@mail04.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion >group writes: >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at >> the dr >> >y >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >> prescience >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose >> >> encore >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >> moments >> >> >>to be >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams >> were >> >> >>hooks >> >> >>>. >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of >> >> darkness >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently >> soft >> >> fruit >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >> to a purer white described without even a thought and carried to another >> plasm, another phone call from the regional director >of miasmal blankness, white to the core of whiteness only wafts to the color in principio which self erases ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" Alan Sondheim wrote On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Thomas Bell wrote: > [D > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the > dry > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > prescience > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > > encore > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > moments > > >>to be > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > were > > >>hooks > > >>>. > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > darkness > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > > fruit > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >> and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying >regions where tongues were cut, women raped, no one had the right to speak up or right downtown what they saw beyond the edge of the off icial facing the end or the impetus toward a new renga about ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:47:50 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: favourite critical word: poetry In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds The caravan of windows to what they flee These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance (inspection denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, kook!" Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco warehouse, curls no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the dry cleaners piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on prescience the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose encore Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for moments to be of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams were hooks. All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of darkness falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft fruit of subject's object status, violent transformation la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of I'm not biting on this, Maria, no matter how you sing it oy, i get reprimanded in public for my lines, my worst POETICS nightmare for critic to talk to critic must first triangulate the poem as overly rich or plain it's ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 00:47:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: combines In-Reply-To: <9508230034.AA32732@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> from "Louis Cabri" at Aug 22, 95 06:34:32 pm > > In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > The caravan of windows to what they flee > These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > kissing the weatherwoman between her coffee breaks as she > gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > (inspection > denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > kook!" > Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > warehouse, curls > no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at the > dry cleaners > piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > prescience > the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > encore > Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > moments to be > of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > were hooks. > All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > darkness > falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently soft > fruit > of subject's object status, violent transformation > la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying > regions where tongues were cut, women raped, no one had the right > to speak > that side of the Thomson-owned newspaper - which ripped as the > ring-pierced tongue pushed through to > the box scores, Kevin Mitchell went three for four against ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:03:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: <199508221813.LAA21485@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Ryan Knighton" at Aug 22, 95 11:13:59 am The reed player that Ryan was referring to at the Catriona Strang reading was Francois Houle, who does some amazing things with clarinet and saxes. You should hear his sax quartet blasting fast for a 1.5 hour set in a bar some time. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:06:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" at Aug 22, 95 12:43:25 pm It would seem to make sense that language poetry (some) in its refusal or reluctance to refer, would be akin to music, which looks more naturally to that freedom. But then language poetry's wordiness is not, to the ear that ascribes "music" to the lyric, vert musical at all. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:15:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In-Reply-To: <3039e8914baa002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 22, 95 09:24:23 am > > In message <199508220607.XAA28024@fraser.sfu.ca> UB Poetics discussion group > writes: > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > > > > >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > > > > >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > > > > >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > > > > >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > > > > >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > > > > >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > > > > >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical sacks, landscape of > > > > >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best mare and the storm in the glass of water's > > > > >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > > > > >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > > > > >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & > > > > > neo-colonizing > > > > >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > > > > >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > > > > >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, > > > > > oh,ho, > > > > >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > > > > >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > > > > >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > > > > > the > > dr > > > y > > > > >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > > > > >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > > > > > prescienc > > e > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter > > > > > chose > > > > encore > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting throughout eternity for > > > > > moment > > s > > > > >>to be > > > > >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > > > > > wer > > e > > > > >>hooks > > > > >>>. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > > > > darkness > > > > >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > > > > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > > > > > soft > > > > fruit > > > > >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > > > > >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > > > > >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > > > > >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > > > > >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > > > > >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > > > > >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > > > > >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > > > > >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > > > > >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > > > > >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > > > > as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > > > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > > > to tapioca, from brown space to hot chocolate, from Republican to > angel steeped in angelology deeper than rilke's or blake's, by virtue of > Donald Turnipseed's decision to pull out onto that highway just then and ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:53:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music Tom Kirby-Smith writes: I was wondering if there is >any musical tradition, and composer, any kind of music that one can >connect with Language Poetry. > Speaking only for myself, the world music scene (most notably balinese gamelan and the group choral Ketjak), early Reich (the tape loops through Drumming--absolutely not the later ornamentalism), Steve Lacy, Anthony Braxton, ROVA, Woodie Guthrie, Delta blues, and Bob Dylan (I've heard both Barrett Watten and Charles Bernstein, who in general agree on very little, make passionate arguments for the formative influence of Dylan on themselves and generally on many of the LPs). Romeo Void used to come to readings out in SF and folks like John Zorn have actively influenced Bruce Andrews. Bernstein as I recall has a great collection of Brecht/Weill recordings....(And I would dearly love to get an LP or cassette again of any Harry Partch, especially the hobo tunes--Partch's instrumentation has always seemed a real model for me on how to proceed). Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 03:05:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) Alan Golding wrote, in one of the best posts I've ever had the pleasure to read: I'm surprised that someone who's always been so attuned to the social components of writing, reading, and reception as you have should use as the basis of your critique what sounds like a dismissal of or skepticism toward those same social components. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something in your comments. Also, didn't you once tell me that Susan was the only writer in the Tree who made her own selections of her own work? Was that your choice because of your ambivalence about the work? At her insistence? Inquiring minds, etc. Or at least mine does. > My sense is that Susan "uses" the spiritual the way certain identarian poets use their identity (and the way some of the doggeral Stalinists of the 30s, viz Cary Nelson's tome, used their class roots), which I in general tend to see as antithetical to the way I would want poetry to engage the world, not leading us to it but rather fending off a deeper questioning. Several people have mentioned her ear. I must be deaf. Susan was not the only one to largely or completely dictate their selection in the Tree, tho maybe the only one that I didn't make any counter suggestions to, in good part because I was/am aware that I lack the sympathy to engage a deeper reading. Later she accused me of deliberately sabotaging her in "my" selections. Now that's the Susan I know and love. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 03:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Poetry and Music Since Rod brought up the influence of Cage on Berrigan, lets remember that terrific list at the end of Padgett's memoir Ted, a complete account of TB's Tulsa record collection still in a sister's attic somewhere. Key figures: Tommy Dorsey Andre Previn Shorty Rogers Arthur Godfrey Perry Como Sarah Vaughan Vic Damone & Percy Faith Al Jolson Frank Sinatra & Nelson Riddle George Shearing Nina Simone The Platters Marian McPartland Patti Page Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 05:58:02 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:26:46 -0500, Maria Damon wrote: >In message <72369.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: >> On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500, >> maria damon wrote: >> >> >In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion >> > grou >> p >> >writes: >> >> > [D >> >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & >> > > > neo-colonizing >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially >> > > > several >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, >> > > > oh,ho, >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at >> >> > > the >> >> >dry >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >> >> >prescience >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter >> > > > chose >> >> >> encore >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >> >> >moments >> >> >> >>to be >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the >> > > > streams >> >> >were >> >> >> >>hooks >> >> >> >>>. >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds >> > > > of >> >> >> darkness >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. >> > > > Likewise >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently >> >> > > soft >> >> >> fruit >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >> >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >> >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >> >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >> >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >> >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >> >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >> >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >> >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >> >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >> >> >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >> >> >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying >> >> premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought >> >whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of >> I'm not biting on this, Maria, no matter how you sing it >oy, i get reprimanded in public for my lines, my worst POETICS nightmare is on hold, would you care to dance while we're waiting, save me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 06:06:50 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) "Several people have mentioned her ear. I must be deaf." -- says Ron. As I read you, and your comments on others, Ron, I think that there's no possibility of your being deaf. That doesn't mean, however, that any of us can hear all musics. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 08:19:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) In-Reply-To: <199508231005.DAA12089@ix8.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Aug 23, 95 03:05:44 am Well, there is this Susan Howe: Hear earth born old hush no name or mane but nick in time and clock a foil for future marching Marching to Pale with face for fool thrumming 'Hollow hollow holds all' Faintly the scene is played softly snow spread on sound skin pebbles in secret also You may not like this music, but how get around the fact of it? As for the criticism of her so-called "spirituality", this seems to me little more than the expression of difference from those whose "politcality" equally could be seen to constitutue an obfuscation of an approach to "the world." A chaque son gout . . . Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:30:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) ron s writes: > > > > My sense is that Susan "uses" the spiritual the way certain identarian > poets use their identity (and the way some of the doggeral Stalinists > of the 30s, viz Cary Nelson's tome, used their class roots), which I in > general tend to see as antithetical to the way I would want poetry to > engage the world, not leading us to it but rather fending off a deeper > questioning. > ouch. while i like the idea of poetry leading us to a deeper questioning beyond first identitarian blush, the phrase "doggerel stalinists" is so contemptuous that i feel my own work indicted. personally, i love doggerel, as did g stein (i'm not putting myself on her level, but citing her for legitimacy). i find it touching. how do you know that those writers of "inferior verse" (as the dictionary defines d.) don't experience themselves to be struggling, searching, saying something that has never been said, engaged in a deeper questioning...--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:37:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Seattle readings Fall '95 Here's the schedule for the new, now monthly, Subtext reading series. September 21 Stacey Levine & Peter Culley October 19 John Olson & Stacy Doris November 16 Joseph Donahue & Melissa Wolsak December 14 Ezra Mark & Deanna Ferguson All readings are Thursdays, at 7:30 pm. The Speakeasy Cafe is at 2304 2nd Avenue, in Seattle's Belltown district, just north of the Public Market. The Speakeasy is an internet cafe . Soon Subtext'll have a website hanging off of the homepage there, with writing by past, present, and future subtext readers, etc. When the website is set up, I'll post the URL to the list. As some of you know, Subtext has been presenting short series of (primarily Northwest) writers in the, uh, "experimental" tradition, for a few years. It's been re-organized, with a few more people involved, and the plan is to continue readings on a monthly basis. The series above was primarily curated by Robert Mittenthal. Some time after Sept 1, we'll start scheduling readings for January through April of 1996. The lead curator for this next series will be Ezra Mark. If there are any writers on the list who are or will be in the area during this time who are looking for a reading, please let me know via email or at POB 95744, Seattle, WA 98145. Our budget is _very_ modest (but we do have one now), so if someone needs a fill-in date out west, something might work out. It's unlikely to be enough of a (financial) incentive for anyone from more than a couple of hundred miles or so to make a special trip to Seattle, but hey, isn't every trip to Seattle special? Or something. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:37:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Value/genius in/with trouble/Poetry Marjorie Perloff is, to a large extent, right that Bob Perelman's TwG deals with > the terrible dilemma--still ours today--of wanting on the one hand to write a > difficult and complex culturally informed poetry and yet speak to a large >audience but Ron Silliman's assessment of the book as a challenge to taking modernist writers at face value is also right. Perelman's book is an all-too-rare example of looking at the work and at the writers and not turning into either a apologistic fan or a knee-jerk critic. Yeah, Kenner & (especially) Davenport are good writers. & yeah, they know more than I ever will about Anglo-American modernist writers or many other things. But they don't seem to have found a satisfactory way to distinguish between the glorious modernist project and the flawed people who wrote the flawed works in the service of this project. The modernists weren't heroes, their works aren't "masterpieces." They were perhaps the first writers to be "great" because of their ongoing, perhaps incompleteable, projects, rather than their products. If nothing else, their "failures" at completing their grand projects have made it possible for whatever it is that's going on now (someone else can call it postmodern if they want). Even most of the more mainstream poets, including some who may still be interested in heroics, seem largely to have given on the idea of a big, big masterpiece. So when Perloff continues: > Do we think this problem has been solved? The answer can only be "Of course not & that's the point." which is one reason why Perelman's take on "Marginalization of Poetry" is such an appealing idea. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:37:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Kenner & CanLit So George (or anyone), Now that Kenner's written books about British, American, & Irish modernist & late modernist writers is he going to do a Can Lit volume? Or what's the story? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:37:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music >Cage's methods seem too mechanical to me to have had much effect on >other people's poetry (besides his own). I was wondering if there is >any musical tradition, and composer, any kind of music that one can >connect with Language Poetry. Actually, some of Cage's compositional processes do make sense in terms of Language Poetry. I'd compare at least some of Ron Silliman's structures for sentences with Cage's late middle pieces (Music for Changes is an example) in which particular time units are filled with sound events with no regard for musical continuity. This seems to be a rather exact analog of some of the Alphabet sections written a sentence a day or, say, the 21 x 21 grid of Garfield. Cage's later "time-bracket" pieces, in which a score indicates a larger time frame in which shorter events can occur (for example, a 90-second "bracket" during which a 20-second pitch or chord can be played at any time), give a kind of loose ensemble feel that relates in my mind to Leslie Scalapino's never quite exactly repeating structures. I've heard people try to make a case for the influence of repetitive pattern music (Reich & Glass) on John Taggart, but to me the repetition in Taggart's work seems more like the use of recurring song form in standard jazz improvisation: the structure is constant but the content shifts. Several very specific Jackson Mac Low poems (those which converge through various means toward a smaller and smaller vocabulary, ending with the same word filling all the spots) have the same feel of inevitable closure as some of Steve Reich's early phase-shifting pieces, though they are formally quite different. Clark Coolidge clarifies some of the connections between jazz and the music (especially the long works from the last ten years) of Morton Feldman. All three keep going, at great length, in the face of a very real possibility of failure, and very often are most successful when they include sections in which not much really happens and are, in fact, kind of dull. (One of the most liberating things about jazz is that it's okay to be boring while on the way to something else. Unfortunately, it doesn't always get to that something else, which is why so many people find jazz boring.) There are "obvious" (& social) correspondences between the collage-style work of Bruce Andrews and John Zorn, not least because they both use often recognizable source types & have cultivated "bad-boy" images. (I don't know if Zorn's voluminous record collection is sorted by the color of the album cover, though.) There are others, but I'll shut up for now. Years ago, Charles Watts suggested that I write something about connections between new music & new writing that I never got around to. But as I mentioned to him at BlaserCon, I've (obviously) been thinking about it more lately. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:37:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" In message <36224.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:26:46 -0500, > Maria Damon wrote: > > >In message <72369.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group > > writes: > >> On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500, > >> maria damon wrote: > >> > >> >In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics > > > discussion > >> > grou > >> p > >> >writes: > >> >> > [D > >> >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine > > > > > morning > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of > > > > > water's > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for > > > > > ignorance > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & > >> > > > neo-colonizing > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially > >> > > > several > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, > >> > > > oh,ho, > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" > > > > > Tobacco > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was > > > > > at > >> >> > > the > >> >> >dry > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > >> >> >prescience > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter > >> > > > chose > >> >> >> encore > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity > > > > > for > >> >> >moments > >> >> >> >>to be > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the > >> > > > streams > >> >> >were > >> >> >> >>hooks > >> >> >> >>>. > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel > > > > > seeds > >> > > > of > >> >> >> darkness > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. > >> > > > Likewise > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and > > > > > recently > >> >> > > soft > >> >> >> fruit > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles > > > > considered > >> >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >> >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >> >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >> >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >> >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >> >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >> >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >> >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > >> >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > >> >> >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > >> >> >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying > >> >> premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought > >> >whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of > >> I'm not biting on this, Maria, no matter how you sing it > >oy, i get reprimanded in public for my lines, my worst POETICS nightmare > is on hold, would you care to dance while we're waiting, save me that last sonnet please, of forgotten wisteria sestina forsythia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:54:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music George Bowering sez: >It would seem to make sense that language poetry (some) in its >refusal or reluctance to refer, would be akin to music, which looks >more naturally to that freedom. But then language poetry's wordiness >is not, to the ear that ascribes "music" to the lyric, vert musical >at all. But then what often has been described as "musical" in verse has simply been lines that don't have any harsh sounds & there's certainly plenty that's literally musical that has those. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 11:36:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Perelman's forthcoming and recent Bob Perelman does seem to be prolific these days! Can anybody provide publication information on his forthcoming critical book(s)? Are there one or two? As for *The Trouble With Genius*, I want to rephrase -- possibly recast -- some of what I've said earlier. I certainly agree with Marjorie that what's being analyzed is "modernism as a cultural construct" -- but it's also being constructed, too, and at the same time. The question is: whose modernism (now)? The effects of combining Pound/Joyce/Stein/Zukofsky in the manner in which it's undertaken are several. One effect is what might be called spatial: the book raises the stock, if you will, of Zuk, by making him part of *that* construct rather than another. Of course he's long been linked with Pound, but his overall critical reputation is nowhere near that of Joyce and Pound (if you measure it empirically, by, say, production of critical commentary). (To a lesser degree, it does the same with Stein). By the same token, it lowers the stock of Joyce, by framing him *within* this construct and thus detracting from his often-touted originality. (Ron alluded to this in his slam on Kenner, but I think it's more a function of the book's organization than its particular readings; a different sort of cultural construct is created than the one in *The Pound Era*, where cultural influences are synthesized and transcended by Pound's -- ta da! -- genius.) So the book evens out reputations, as historicizing arguments tend to do. Which is not to say its individual readings aren't pretty amazing. The temporal effect is somewhat different. The organization of the book *from* Pound *to* Zuk begins to construct a trajectory that will lead, inevitably yet problematically, to language poetry. This is what I was alluding to earlier with comments on LP gaining a pedigree and a certain amount of cultural authority. Therefore the issues are *not* limited to "modernism as a cultural construct" but are deeply contemporary, affecting important conceptions of the authority of current writing practices. This is the first time that I've seen LP linked to Joyce, whose critical stock remains as high as anybody's. (The trajectory to LP is clear in one of the final notes in the book, and also in the opening of the Zukofsky chapter.) One might say, well, this isn't what Bob's doing, he doesn't care about critical reputations among professors: but I doubt that can hold water. Why publish TTWG with a major university press with a big stake in the New American Poetry and, until Hopkins picked up the ball, Zukofsky as well? A major audience for this book will be academics, many of them modernist scholars. Another will be people interested in contemporary poetry, both in and out of the university. That both of these audiences are desired is apparent on every page of the book, as far as I'm concerned -- and I'm perfectly happy with that. (BTW, there is at least one other critical book that links Joyce and Zukofsky -- *Writing Joyce: A Semiotics of the Joyce System*, by Lorraine Weir (Indiana UP, 1989). I'm rather surprised this is nowhere cited in TTWG. Not an historical argument, but still...) Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:08:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: code of silence Susan E. Dunn writes: >I can't help but think, however, that Susan Howe would be amused at >her role in this discussion as the Anne Hutchinsonesque sacraficial >*text* -- the monstrous body that disconnects/relies on powers beyond >the confines of accepted references -- that is held up as a scapegoat for >Corn-as-Puritan-father demanding that we eject our demons and name >names. Seems to me that Alfred Corn is cutting quite a mythological figure these days. It was Herb Levy, not Alfred Corn, who ticked off a list of magazines on the shelf behind him and suggested highlighting something "really bad" in one of them. He went on to make a larger point (let me know if I'm misreading you Herb) about the airlessness of certain POETICS discussions or non-discussions (agreements to agree, or pretend to agree). Why must the consideration of a body of work be reduced to a simpleminded bunking or debunking? I didn't sense that that was what either Ron Silliman or Alan Golding had in mind, and I'm grateful for their posts. But if we're all entirely sure of what sucks and what rules, let's swear loyalty oaths and impose a gag order. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:24:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: <199508230953.CAA11448@ix8.ix.netcom.com> How exactly do these people connect with language poetry, beyond the fact that perhaps you like their work? Alan On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Ron Silliman wrote: > Tom Kirby-Smith writes: > > I was wondering if there is > >any musical tradition, and composer, any kind of music that one can > >connect with Language Poetry. > > > > Speaking only for myself, the world music scene (most notably balinese > gamelan and the group choral Ketjak), early Reich (the tape loops > through Drumming--absolutely not the later ornamentalism), Steve Lacy, > Anthony Braxton, ROVA, Woodie Guthrie, Delta blues, and Bob Dylan (I've > heard both Barrett Watten and Charles Bernstein, who in general agree > on very little, make passionate arguments for the formative influence > of Dylan on themselves and generally on many of the LPs). Romeo Void > used to come to readings out in SF and folks like John Zorn have > actively influenced Bruce Andrews. Bernstein as I recall has a great > collection of Brecht/Weill recordings....(And I would dearly love to > get an LP or cassette again of any Harry Partch, especially the hobo > tunes--Partch's instrumentation has always seemed a real model for me > on how to proceed). > > Ron Silliman > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Perelman's forthcoming and recent Well, David kellogg--what about Beckett---I mean the difference between Joyce and Beckett... It seems that what lately has been called LP (when ron first said it-- "both charles and bob cop to the influence of dylan on many of the lps "---i thought he was referring to the pre CD era) has more affinities with beckett than with Joyce----cs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:39:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music alan sondheim raises a good point----The L poets are roughly contemporaries of bob dylan (minus 4 or 5 years as " "median" age?) but isn't DYLAN more of those GENIUSES they have TROUBLE with--you know, the self-dramatizing "hero" type replete with personal pathos and visionary fervor (though certainly a better singer than GINSBERG) and even, gasp, a willingness to deal with heterosexuality in a more than merely theoretical way than most of, say, the MALE LP's (i mean langpo's)---so maybe there is a question of consistency here-- unless of course we simply disclaim the whole issue by saying Bob Dylan is NOT a poet--therefore the standards one would use to judge susAn howe, etc--are not applicable and so it's okay if he's a "genius" or, worse " a hero"--------chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:45:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Text In-Reply-To: If anyone is interested in the work I have been writing on virtual subjectivity/literature/Internet/etc. it is available at http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html and there are numerous accompanying images as http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:54:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:38:13 -0400 from I have heard Susan Howe read on three occasions -- all within the last eight years. Each reading was electrifying. The cadence, the attention to syllable, the fevering (and unfevering) of pitch, diction, the point where the prosaic lines appropriated from (among others) Charles Dickens bleeds into the fragmentary / visually arranged materials -- all of this is spell-binding in memory (and anticipation of another hearing). Having had the extraordinary pleasure of having worked as editor for Susan's _A Bibliography of the King's Book; or, Eikon Basilike_, I feel a privileged sense of Susan's attention to detail. My trying to duplicate the "look" of her typewritten pages on a typeset-spaced computer system provided us with the challenge of finding _how_ her work could be articulated in a variant of the original that was true to her vision. Trade-offs (what letters must overlap, what angles could shift and to what degree) were discussed, and, finally approved. I cannot read Susan's work without hearing it; and I cannot hear it without envisioning its pagedness. As I have suggested elsewhere, language itself seems refreshed after reading Susan's work. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:43:33 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:57:20 -1000 From: Indepen To: Susan Schultz Subject: response I already belong to two discussion lists, and don't have the space for another, but Susan Schultz has forwarded recent posts about good and not-good LP writing, which I was going simply to read without answering. I guess I'll have to say something in order to clear up some misunderstandings. CAP-L is not a discussion list for New Formalists. It is a discussion of contemporary American poetry of whatever stamp. Language poets may subscribe and post. They have before and continue to. I am not a New Formalist, nor would several of those listed in recent posts describe themselves as such. The terms "form" or "forma;" shouldn't be restricted to the use of meter and rhyme, since every poem has form of some kind or another. I have written more poems without meter and rhyme than with; meter and rhyme to me are techniques, useful or not, depending on the poem in question. They are not a faith. Meanwhile, poetry written in meter and rhyme has been written in every decade of this century by important poets--Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, et al. It isn't new, or for that matter old. I am neither a Puritan nor a father. I did not ask that anyone be sacrificed, let alone Susan Howe, whose poetry I haven't read. Susan Dunn objects to an alleged scapegoating, but in doing so scapegoats CAP-L in general and me in particular. I was interested to hear Ron Silliman's views on Howe, though I wish he had been fuller in his comments; "tepid" doesn't convey much to me, and citing particular texts would have been more useful. I also can't believe that she is the only (*if* she is) bad Language poet. Are there others? And which ones are the very best--and *why*? When Ron Silliman began posting about LP on CAP-L, I and others raised the question of how it was evaluated, what criteria were brought to it in order to decide what was good and what was bad. If we can't be told that, we can never learn what conventions govern the poetry and can never become competent readers of it. If LP is interested in a wider audience, I don't see the point of neglecting to explain its criteria. Some of you are teachers, and if you're good ones, you know that sneering and scapegoating aren't effective as teaching methods. Calm, undefensive, cogent (and exciting) exposition is what works. Alfred Corn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:57:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Waples Subject: Notes of a renga lurker In-Reply-To: <9508230403.AA20996@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Aug 23, 95 00:00:24 am Thanks, Susan Dunn, for your comments on Susan Howe's work, and her moment in our critical spotlight, and especially for your thoughts on the renga...which to my ear sounds more like a dance than a poem. It's time to confess, I'm a renga lurker. The lace curtains are still more mollycoddled than aware, and the attorney general and Sir Duke are forever linked in my thoughts. This despite the fact that I'm peering into the renga on a system as backward ("Hey, it still word processes") as Susan's. But I too am finding that the renga is making me think about technology and audience. If I were receiving messages individually from this list, my delete trigger might now be as finely tuned as George Bowering's. But I'm on DIGEST, to save time? More precisely, to avoid the need to log in every four hours to clear my mailbox. The DIGEST, however, does not allow rapid deletings; it actually allows less digesting! As a result, I have to chew my renga 32 times to get to the end and find out if Maria will be okay. (I hope so!) A simpleminded suggestion led to another thought; would the renga-ers be happy with only copying the immediately preceding 3 or 4 lines before adding to the dance? Or could there be some ideology of "wholeness" within the renga -- or within the technology that invites our replies to the list -- that inclines to copying the entire thing each time? I'd prefer to think not, but then again, I'd prefer to be re-acquainted with Ste. Therese a little less frequently. It occurs to me that no bulletin board discussion ever strays too far from the issue of "audience." Perhaps that's only because I prefer the company of people who spend a lot of time thinking about trying to be democratic, or self-conscious, or both. But I am wondering what to make of "audience" and "renga" together. Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:55:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: N_w F_______m I believe that I said, "the movement really has acquired a reactionary following." I had hoped that before I died that "The Psalm of Life" would disappear from important anthologies of American poetry; one of the untoward effects of N_w F________m may be that it stays. One of these false hopes, such as wanting outlive Elvis's reputation. One of the most remarkable things to me about this thing is its usually unacknowledged descent from Yvor Winters and from Winters's closest disciples. Sort of like the Children of Israel fearing to mention the name of Jaweh. I have never known anyone personally who called itself a N_w F_______t. I have been told of one, but I wouldn't want to libel anyone. I have never seen a copy of that magazine called "The Formalist"--only heard about it the other day, actually. I wonder if all these people who feel so virtuous writing Villanelles realize that villanelle-writing was really just a continuation of Romantic balladeering, moving on to the Troubadors --just another Gothic Revival medievalizing trend in the late nineteenth century. Nothing classical at all about it. Also, the best villanelles have been written by unabashed Romantics. Excessive intricacy of form has always been a sign of decadence. As the Roman Empire fell apart, poet after poet had a fling at either doing one more great thing in the hexameters borrowed from Greek, or else did something really fancy that no one had ever bothered to do before. The great poems of the period are the early hymns, where the language settled back into the vernacular Latin and became accentual. N_w F_______m seems to me somewhat like fifth-century A. D. poetry that went on trying to revive the grandeur of Virgil and Ovid, Horace and Catullus. Tom Kirby-Smith English Department UNC-Greensboro Greensboro NC 27412 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian W Horihan Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: <199508230806.BAA05561@fraser.sfu.ca> On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, George Bowering wrote: > It would seem to make sense that language poetry (some) in its > refusal or reluctance to refer, would be akin to music, which looks > more naturally to that freedom. But then language poetry's wordiness > is not, to the ear that ascribes "music" to the lyric, vert musical > at all. > This is an idea i wanted to talk about a couple months ago with a post that didnt quite stick. As for music that is non-lyric, "non-musical" to the ear George means, what about comparisons to 50s era serialist music (e.g. Babbit, Stockhausen) which is often very academic, too? --brian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:45:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) Well, yes, but what about "nick/ in time"--since we're discussing the music--the familiar phrase--but I love "a foil for future"--I love the sound of "marching/Marching" but the capitalization (which is for the eye, yes) is what pleases me about this more than say Clark Coolidge's "trilobite/trilobites"--as far as getting around the fact of it Mr Boughn that sounds like Olson coming through you. There are no facts in poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:01:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: <01HUEVB9FA0Y8Y5Y8Z@cnsvax.albany.edu> Or can we say that Dylan seems to have been overtly culturally and politi- cally engaged for most of his life, with a kind of rawness that at least seems antithetical to L? Alan On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > alan sondheim raises a good point----The L poets are roughly contemporaries > of bob dylan (minus 4 or 5 years as > " "median" age?) but isn't DYLAN more of those GENIUSES they have TROUBLE > with--you know, the self-dramatizing "hero" type replete with personal > pathos and visionary fervor (though certainly a better singer than > GINSBERG) and even, gasp, a willingness to deal with heterosexuality > in a more than merely theoretical way than most of, say, the MALE LP's > (i mean langpo's)---so maybe there is a question of consistency here-- > unless of course we simply disclaim the whole issue by saying Bob > Dylan is NOT a poet--therefore the standards one would use to judge > susAn howe, etc--are not applicable and so it's okay if he's a "genius" > or, worse " a hero"--------chris stroffolino > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:38:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Perelman's forthcoming and recent In-Reply-To: <01HUEUZG1F8O8Y5Y8Z@cnsvax.albany.edu> On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Well, David kellogg--what about Beckett---I mean the difference between > Joyce and Beckett... > It seems that what lately has been called LP (when ron first said it-- > "both charles and bob cop to the influence of dylan on many of the lps > "---i thought he was referring to the pre CD era) has more affinities > with beckett than with Joyce----cs I'm not sure I understand your post. I have no particular desire to link LP with Joyce; neither does Perelman in a direct sense I think -- but to read Joyce with Zuk and then connect Zuk with LP (natch!) performs a critical and evaluative function which I think is interesting. I don't really care whether it's right, or who's closer. That was never my point. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:05:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Susan Schultz (Alfred Corn?) wrote: > I was interested to hear Ron Silliman's > views on Howe, though I wish he had been fuller in his comments; "tepid" > doesn't convey much to me, and citing particular texts would have been > more useful. I also can't believe that she is the only (*if* she is) bad > Language poet. Are there others? And which ones are the very best--and > *why*? > When Ron Silliman began posting about LP on CAP-L, I and others > raised the question of how it was evaluated, what criteria were brought to > it in order to decide what was good and what was bad. If we can't be told > that, we can never learn what conventions govern the poetry and can never > become competent readers of it. If LP is interested in a wider audience, > I don't see the point of neglecting to explain its criteria. Some of you > are teachers, and if you're good ones, you know that sneering and > scapegoating aren't effective as teaching methods. Calm, undefensive, cogent > (and exciting) exposition is what works. Dear Alfred, I'm afraid I didn't read the post that started this, but your response here raises some issues that I think are worth addressing. Ron's comment about Susan Howe has been much discussed, and while I don't need to defend him, it was clear from his post that he was referring to questions of personal taste, not to Howe's "goodness" or "badness" as a poet. In fact, I took his whole post as explaining (pretty well) a relativist view of poetry in which the question of "which ones are the very best -- and why?" is not really meaningful. Perhaps more seriously, I'm a bit surprised by this part of your post: > how it was evaluated, what criteria were brought to > it in order to decide what was good and what was bad. If we can't be told > that, we can never learn what conventions govern the poetry and can never > become competent readers of it. I find this amazing, and must say: speak for yourself. Do you really mean that you can't become a competent reader of a poetry that seems strange to you without somebody telling you "what criteria were brought to it in order to decide what was good and what was bad"? You lose the potential to encounter a lot of interesting work this way. I came to language poetry from "outside," too, and found that the best solution to my own "incompetence" was to read a lot of it. Do you really need to settle on an accepted criteria of excellence *before* you read? I prefer to find out as I go. A more generous reading of your statement is possible, one that basically translates into, if language poetry has no set standards, then no standards are possible. Is there any poetry with such standards, such a "criteria"? I doubt it. Within language poetry, as outside it, such criteria are *contested*, not established. That's in the nature of experimental writing, and also -- I would argue -- with virtually everthing in culture. The criteria that do emerge, here and there, are not so unfamiliar: freshness, surprise, intelligence, interesting sounds, intellectual engagement, dialogue with history, subject matter, -- and yes, who you know, friendliness with the editor, etc. . . . . Don't mean to be harsh with you, friend, but I think you're either being disingenous or didn't think your post through. There are no set criteria. Nowhere, nohow. Never were. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:36:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) In-Reply-To: <950823124539_81408493@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Aug 23, 95 12:45:40 pm > Well, yes, but what about "nick/ in time"--since we're discussing the > music--the familiar phrase--but I love "a foil for future"--I love the sound > of "marching/Marching" but the capitalization (which is for the eye, yes) is > what pleases me about this more than say Clark Coolidge's > "trilobite/trilobites"--as far as getting around the fact of it Mr Boughn > that sounds like Olson coming through you. There are no facts in poetry. Well, Mr. Davis (lordy lordy we're getting pretty formal around here--the creeping effects of all this formalist discussion?) what is language if it ain't a fact? (and what a trip to have a little Olson come through . . . wow Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:49:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:57:20 -1000 > From: Indepen > To: Susan Schultz > Subject: response > > > I already belong to two discussion lists, and don't have the space > for another, but Susan Schultz has forwarded recent posts about good and > not-good LP writing, which I was going simply to read without answering. > I guess I'll have to say something in order to clear up some > misunderstandings. > CAP-L is not a discussion list for New Formalists. It is a > discussion of contemporary American poetry of whatever stamp. Language > poets may subscribe and post. They have before and continue to. > I am not a New Formalist, nor would several of those listed in > recent posts describe themselves as such. The terms "form" or "forma;" > shouldn't be restricted to the use of meter and rhyme, since every poem > has form of some kind or another. I have written more poems without meter > and rhyme than with; meter and rhyme to me are techniques, useful or not, > depending on the poem in question. They are not a faith. Meanwhile, > poetry written in meter and rhyme has been written in every decade of this > century by important poets--Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, et al. It isn't > new, or for that matter old. > I am neither a Puritan nor a father. I did not ask that anyone be > sacrificed, let alone Susan Howe, whose poetry I haven't read. Susan Dunn > objects to an alleged scapegoating, but in doing so scapegoats CAP-L in > general and me in particular. I was interested to hear Ron Silliman's > views on Howe, though I wish he had been fuller in his comments; "tepid" > doesn't convey much to me, and citing particular texts would have been > more useful. I also can't believe that she is the only (*if* she is) bad > Language poet. Are there others? And which ones are the very best--and > *why*? > When Ron Silliman began posting about LP on CAP-L, I and others > raised the question of how it was evaluated, what criteria were brought to > it in order to decide what was good and what was bad. If we can't be told > that, we can never learn what conventions govern the poetry and can never > become competent readers of it. If LP is interested in a wider audience, > I don't see the point of neglecting to explain its criteria. Some of you > are teachers, and if you're good ones, you know that sneering and > scapegoating aren't effective as teaching methods. Calm, undefensive, cogent > (and exciting) exposition is what works. > > Alfred Corn hello alfred corn --i've posted several times to poetics to the effect that i take fairly seriously Robert Duncan's dictum that there are no good or bad poems. this i hold true for just about every "school" of poetry. i wd not teach a class in poetry by offering, for example, a "good" and "bad" example from each "school." it's an intriguing idea, but it's simply never crossed my mind. even after thinking it over, it strikes me that to learn to evaluate a product is somewhat like backing into a process backasswards as it were, no disrespect intended, but to start from a position of judgment is not, i think, the most effective way to open someone's mind. it shuts down process, and leaps to a critical appraisal of product --how intimidating to someone trying to learn to read or practice. maybe i'm a sentimental patsy, but openness, to me, is always a better approach to learning. rather than asking for an example of a "bad" language poet, why not ask us how, for instance, we would "read" a given text? too bad you missed gary sullivan --he posted some stunning close readings of initially opaque texts that were useful paradidms for learning to read. and they didn't involve ranking poetry, poems and poets in a meritocratic economy. respectfully--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 18:47:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: non music anon I'm not surprised to see "their" idea of musical But then what often has been described as "musical" in verse has simply been lines that don't have any harsh sounds & there's certainly plenty that's literally musical that has those. privileged here. I think a discussion of John Taggart/Susan Howe/Bruce Andrews/Ron Padgett is in order, in re music of the line. Taggart it seems plays off repetition as musicality, Zorn is Andrews' ideal, Padgett approves of cleanliness of syntax and vocabulary, and Howe goes for the glorious combinations. OR, those are the commonplaces about those authors. Music is never commonplace. Nor is it ONLY the articulation of sound forms in time. As long as there is an audience (renga=audience) there are emotional characterizations and attributions from that audience. What I like most about "our" poetry is the music (when it's there). I certainly don't care about anybody's "meanings" except insofar as they add to or detract from the music. I'm not looking for limits, thanks. Dr & Mrs Corn suggest (in reverse) an interesting topic: what it is we like about "our" poetries. Philosophy and poetics should be (I think) free of bad feelings. Originators of exclusion beware! I would love to see more frequent cogent praises of musics (and I apologize for the music of that request). Your humble admirer Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 18:52:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: now words/cognitive dissonance what is language if it ain't a fact? language is words and language is talking and something else But don't confuse me with the facts Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:17:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: nadir of the W In-Reply-To: <199508230357.UAA25442@sparta.SJSU.EDU> I'm more than a little puzzled by the reluctance to define the word "spirituality" combined with an insistent usage of that word. Perhaps that is the defining instance of the spiritual??? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:22:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: the renga that took the place of itself In-Reply-To: <199508230357.UAA25442@sparta.SJSU.EDU> also puzzled by some of our reactions to the renga in progress (including my own) -- that is, a sort of impatience that differs in interesting respects from our readings of printed volumes seems to be at work -- we (by which I mean me) read much longer, and far worse, printed texts without grousing, but the iterated and reitrated form seems to play a part in the impatience of some on the list -- that is, maybe _Cantos_ would be more disturbing yet if, instead of constantly interrupting itself, it constantly interrupted whatever otehr communication acts we were involved in at the time -- (as it does to those of us who have read it) -- & the composer I invariably think of while reading language poetry is Louis Armstrong -- but I'm tight like that -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:16:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:05:58 -0400 from I was prepared to contest the premises of Alfred Corn's questions regarding criteria and evaluation--just as some earlier (myself included) had seen fit to question a rhetorical model where one post can "change a mind" and perhaps also the idea that metaphors are "revealing." But I think that David Kellogg and Maria Damon have already done that--and on the contested nature of criteria one might refer to Barbara H. Smith's _The Contingencies of Value_. If Corn has recently become a kind of ghost on this list, he seems to me a friendly ghost, and I want to say a few things in his defense. It seems to me that there is a need in the "experimental" poetry community for direct and detailed statements of "personal"--if you will--value and preferences, tastes (not that these need be singular or static). Perhaps because of the way langpo emerged and the climate it emerged in, much langpo prose has been given over to the criticism of other prevailing modes of poetry--the so-called "mainstream"--or to a kind of blanket advocacy where the names of the elect are rehearsed. Or, in some cases, for political and "theoretical" reasons, evaluation is itself questioned or rejected--Charles B, for one, sometimes seems to me given to listing rather than explaining his preferences, and I don't doubt for a second that he has reasons. But there has been comparatively little critical prose by langpo writers not directed primarily at "others"--at least until recently, as the case of Bob Perelman's book(s) demonstrates, along with Ron Silliman's recent remark about Susan Howe. This makes perfect sense to me: one must first clear a little space, no? (This was part of Alan Golding's point.) Were things any different in, say, Robert Pinsky's _The Situation of Poetry_, where he worked to clear space for Frank Bidart, Jim McMichael and others? But it seems to me that now IS the time for the langpo crowd to begin working on their own _A Test of Poetry_ and, ideally, the range of their attention will be at least as expansive as Zukofsky's. This is not just a matter of expanding an audience but of clarifying what might be meant by surprise, striking sound patterns,engagement with history--etc etc (Kellogg's list could of course be expanded a good deal)--in a proliferation of examples arranged in provovative juxtaposition. Such examples need not be ranked good and bad and--if it's possible to be open-minded at least a little--the commentary might follow the examples. Of course finding publishers for such books--there should be a good number of them--will be difficult, which probably brings us back to the point where what used to be--perhaps--a "movement" (langpo) started. On another note, I'm hoping that Silliman's remarks won't be enough to keep Alfred Corn from reading Susan Howe. Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:43:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? In-Reply-To: Gale, I was interested in your comments about the difficulty of typesetting Susan Howe's work from typescript. When she was a visiting writer at my university about a year ago, one of the most seminal (ovarian?) things, to me, that she stressed, was the notion of older poets' giving younger ones a kind of permission. Could the proliferation of typesetting programs like Quark XPress lead to a greater sense of possibility for the rest of us in regard to some of Howe's visual techniques like superimposed and rotated lines? I'm thinking of _Eikon Basilike_ probably more than, say, _Articulation of Sound Forms in Time._ Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 01:31:27 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Howe Now Brown ... / writer or written? >how do you know that those writers of "inferior verse" (as the >dictionary defines d.) don't experience themselves to be struggling, searching, >saying something that has never been said, engaged in a deeper >questioning...--md I suppose we can't know. The question is - do we care? One's evaluation of a poem comes from one's _own_ encounter with the text, not from an assumption of the _writer's_ experiences. A banal fragment of writing might interact with my experiences, my concerns, and the context within which I find it, and hence become meaningful and evocative. On the other hand, a sincere piece of writing from someone who believes that he or she is really "engaged in a deeper questioning" can bore me senseless if it doesn't provoke _me_ to "struggling, searching" or whatever. I'm not coming at this from a theoretical perspective of "The Death of the Author", but simply from a reader's viewpoint. Wearing my critic's hat, I might be willing to give a writer "marks for effort", but as a reader, a "consumer", of poetry, I want something more. I want stimulation, challenge, enjoyment, sensuality, wit and intelligence. Above all, I want excellence. It doesn't matter whether a piece of writing was written by a "great poet", a struggling poetaster, a cynically manipulative ad agency or a computer program. What matters is the poem, and what that poem triggers off in the reader. If enough readers find that a poem triggers no response with them, or in other words, fails to make the readers "experience themselves to be struggling, searching, saying something that has never been said, engaged in a deeper questioning," then those readers call that poem "doggerel". If this sounds selfish, then it is. Readers _are_ selfish - they've paid $19.95 or whatever for a 30-page volume of poems, and they want something back. Unless one is paid to read poetry (which I guess a few people here are ...), then one doesn't want to waste one's time reading doggerel. Tom Beard. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 23:07:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: ACLA Call for Papers on Lit. betw. Phil & Cultural Studies ACLA '96 CALL FOR PAPERS LITERATURE BETWEEN PHILOSOPHY AND CULTURAL STUDIES American Comparative Literature Association University of Notre Dame April 11-13, 1996 Keynote Speakers Rodolphe Gasche, Elizabeth Grosz, David Lloyd Poetry Reading Lyn Hejinian, John Matthias While cultural studies and continental philosophy/poststructuralism might be regarded as two mutually exclusive paradigms, this conference will explore how the intersections between them can open new productive possibilities for literary and comparative studies. Toward this end we propose to interrogate the following set of issues: Rethinking Modernity: Literature/Philosophy/Culture * Cultural Significance of Poststructuralist Theory: Derrida, Irigaray, Lyotard * Feminism: Between Philosophy and Cultural Studies * Sexualities, "Racial" Identities, and Queer Theory * Cultural and Ethical Figures of Otherness * Post Enlightenment Philosophies, Pre-Enlightenment Literatures * National Identities/Comparative Literatures/Postcolonial Studies * History/Event/Practice: Nietzsche, Heidegger, Foucault * Models of Culture in Cultural Studies and Deconstruction * Cultural Studies: Without Philosophy? * Psychoanalysis, Film, and Contemporary Philosophy * Philosophers Reading Poets/Poets Reading Philosophers * Papers and panels on other topics related to the theme of the conference are welcome. Papers should be no longer than 3000 words; paper proposals approximately 250 words. Panel proposals must include: title, chairperson, the proposal of 250 words for the panel and a complete set of papers or proposals. Deadline for submissions: October 15, 1995. Address submissions and inquiries to: Krzysztof Ziarek Department of English 356 O'Shaughnessy Hall University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556-5639 tel. (219) 631-5637 fax (219) 631-8209 or by email to: English.acla.96@nd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:31:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: favourite care word: "you" Charles Alexander wrote: >On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:26:46 -0500, >Maria Damon wrote: > >>In message <72369.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: >>> On Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500, >>> maria damon wrote: >>> >>> >In message <199508220632.XAA09596@bob.indirect.com> UB Poetics discussion >>> > grou >>> p >>> >writes: >>> >> > [D >>> >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & >>> > > > neo-colonizing >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially >>> > > > several >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, >>> > > > oh,ho, >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at >>> >> > > the >>> >> >dry >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on >>> >> >prescience >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter >>> > > > chose >>> >> >> encore >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for >>> >> >moments >>> >> >> >>to be >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the >>> > > > streams >>> >> >were >>> >> >> >>hooks >>> >> >> >>>. >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds >>> > > > of >>> >> >> darkness >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. >>> > > > Likewise >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently >>> >> > > soft >>> >> >> fruit >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered >>> >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging >>> >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised >>> >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep >>> >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes >>> >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten >>> >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night >>> >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto >>> >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity >>> >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart >>> >> >> beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space >>> >> >and silos yield rainbows. Combines circle the outlying >>> >> premises as substantive as crayons now confused with thought >>> >whose rainbows rival cosmic immensities to the tune of >>> I'm not biting on this, Maria, no matter how you sing it >>oy, i get reprimanded in public for my lines, my worst POETICS nightmare >is on hold, would you care to dance while we're waiting, save me the friction of a cushion to inflate, support, revere ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:51:39 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: the renga that took the place of itself irritant renga -- yes scanning the fairly familiar yards of it until down , holding mouse button, to the unfmilair, the new line. Gee all the way through this text again and again like a partridge in a pear-tree building and building. It's the time it takes. It's that time in which the programme runs so long that you don't know what's happened to the ads. I like it. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:42:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Wallace who? Jordan asks: >List at large >Is there really an avantgarde tradition in North America totally unaware of >Wallace Stevens? Yes, but by strange coincidence (OR IS IT?!) the movement calls itself "The Emporers of Ice Cream" and its logo is a clam playing an accordian. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 23:54:25 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: mormon in the armoire Comments: To: "Sheila E. Murphy" On 22 Aug 95 at 21:06, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: > >In message <950822163805_60663502@mail04.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion > >group writes: > >> >> >>>>>>>> In the books were dreams and in the dreams were books. > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> And flew through windows, lightning green and fine morning > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> First inverted whistle of a cardinal in the poplar > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The book and the oboe on the grass under sun and cloud > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Go endlessly, an obtuse Prussian blue, it binds > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> The caravan of windows to what they flee > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> These lace curtains, more gauze than bondage, more > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Mollycoddled than aware, thin-spined and pebbling > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> but narrow in the waist or waspish Sunday years ago > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Over coffee topped with whipped cream, the Times blowing > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> & opining, heavy humid air, cumulus amusing against the > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> bleached ribcage ripcorded into compassed wind > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kissing the weatherwoman between her breasts as she > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> gives gracious problem: fanatical snacks, landscape of > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> flicka my best friend and the storm in the glass of water's > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> halfway pertinent incision we keep making safe for ignorance > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> (inspection > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> denied for not knowing how credenza was meant) & neo-colonizing > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> pockets in small furniture intended house sequentially several > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> mountains away but it wasn't, you know, a big tango > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> when the attorney general came, selah hales said, "Dias, oh,ho, > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> kook!" > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Edward Kennedy Ellington! "Tootin' Through the Roof" Tobacco > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> warehouse, curls > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> no ideas but the woven fabric the texture so to speak was at > >> the dr > >> >y > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> cleaners > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> piping hot and gloved-in somewhere unsalted, perched on > >> prescience > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the chair is sad, alas, and i've lusted tootles' livers > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> the odor day toy a cello day dis chevys a bo coo daughter chose > >> >> encore > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> Flaubert because we're waiting all throughout eternity for > >> moments > >> >> >>to be > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of such suchness. In the nooks were creams and in the streams > >> were > >> >> >>hooks > >> >> >>>. > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> All melded like striated film leftover in the pastel seeds of > >> >> darkness > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> falling like a counterirritant around the manchineel. Likewise > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper juxtaposed with seasoned instruments and recently > >> soft > >> >> fruit > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> of subject's object status, violent transformation > >> >> >>>>>>>>> la Ste. Therese into beaming cumulus apokoinu switchback > >> >> >>>>>>>>>and in the u-turns were bookmobiles rounding angles considered > >> >> >>>>>>>>shrill as pine left in the acres to be aging > >> >> >>>>>>>flawlessly, flutes sing genderless in trio, surprised > >> >> >>>>>>by how quiet effort really is or is not, fast enough to sleep > >> >> >>>>>through thunderstorms, arm over thigh until light shakes > >> >> >>>>petals free of names that rain across known skin forgotten > >> >> >>>other than prints, trace free of cloth, slow memory night > >> >> >>with customs planted in them to retract what almost fastens onto > >> >> >the unhinged wing of night's stern and contracted falsity > >> >> as blessed glass retracts whatever mule the heart > >> > beats. In the ensuing silence, her eyes turn from white space > >> to a purer white described without even a thought and carried to another > >> plasm, another phone call from the regional director > >of miasmal blankness, white to the core of whiteness only > wafts to the color in principio which self erases golden sections of no-mind shining ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 23:54:31 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Value/genius in/with trouble/Poetry Comments: To: Herb Levy On 23 Aug 95 at 7:37, Herb Levy wrote: > Even most of the more mainstream poets, including some who may still be > interested in heroics, seem largely to have given on the idea of a big, big > masterpiece. Do you mean that people have stopped doing huge pieces, or that an equation of the hugeness of a piece with its value which once existed has gone away? Some of us are still working on big, big pieces -- I've got one in progress that will run 668 pages (I know this ahead of time due to the chance operations that pre-structured it), and Ron's still in the midst of his "The Alphabet" (I don't know what others are up to on the big projects front -- is Armand Schwerner still writing Tablets?). ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:18:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: the renga that took the place of itself In-Reply-To: On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Tony Green wrote: > irritant renga -- yes scanning the fairly familiar yards of it until > down , holding mouse button, to the unfmilair, the new line. Gee all > the way through this text again and again like a partridge in a > pear-tree building and building. It's the time it takes. It's that > time in which the programme runs so long that you don't know what's > happened to the ads. I like it. > Yes, it is the time, and some of us can only afford so much of it. I only receive ten hours of net time a month. Three quarters of it is spent doing email reading, replying and deleting. I like this list because I'm always learning new stuff. I'm being introduced to worlds of poetics I'd never experienced, but renga is not one that I am enjoying. It was fun for awhile, but it's like beating a dead horse (to use a cliche). However I know other people still like it so could we come up with a code word as a heading for rengas so I don't have to look at them. I always find myself becoming intrigued by interesting titles and then cursing as I find out it's renga. For those of you who use the digest mode, you have my condolences. Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:26:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 22 Aug 1995 to 23 Aug 1995 >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 11:36:54 -0400 >From: David Kellogg >Subject: Perelman's forthcoming and recent > >Bob Perelman does seem to be prolific these days! Can anybody provide >publication information on his forthcoming critical book(s)? Are there >one or two? : I think there's just one critical book coming out, on LangPo from Princeton. Meanwhile a chunk of it (the fairly harsh essay on Andrews mentioned a couple days ago by someone) can be read in a recent (number provided if desired) issue of Arizona Quarterly. Another recent issue, btw, offers hardcopy version of the Bernstein piece on "mainstream" poetry vs. the (e)mag world of "alternative" journals and books--the essay that's also downloadable via EPC. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:50:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <303ba26374ae002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 23, 95 04:49:29 pm It was interesting to read that strange letter from Corn. (Is he a well-known poet in the US?) I mean to hear language that comes out of assumptions that are so much different from the ones one has been assuming all these years. Foir example, the use of the word "rhyme"--Mr Corn seems to use the word to mean some kind of end-rime, which I must admit I have heard elsewhere, but not from a poet, as far as I know. As to "meter"--I was unaware that that term, which I have always heard used to discuss poems by Milton, say, or Shakespeare, was used by or about poets this half-century at least. One must have noticed his asking about the "conventions that govern" contemporary poetry. Is he really of a mind to support those two terms, especially the verb? The idea of governing poetry is as odd as the idea of "mastering" words, it seems to me. But it is an eye-opener to hear that there are poets (if Corn is representative of some larger order) who think that way. The crossing of the BuffNet and that (is it) CAP-L list might be really interesting. What does CAP-L (I mean the title) stand for? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:58:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Association for the Study of Australian Literature ASAL: Association for the Study of Australian Literature Incorporating the Australian Literature Society (established Melbourne 1899) Patrons: Jack Davis, AD Hope, Thomas Keneally, Judith Wright. The Association for the Study of Australian Literature sees a lively literary culture as essential to the intellectual life of Australia. To this end it promotes the study, discussion and creation of Australian writing. It also seeks to increase the awareness of Australian writing in the wider community and throughout the world. ASAL's members include writers and publishers, undergraduates and postgraduates, academics and teachers and anybody interested in Australian literature. Members of ASAL meet each year at an annual conference, usually in July. Discussion ranges across broad historical, cultural, critical and theoretical contexts, always with some consideration of recent writing. As well as providing the most important national showcase for current research and critical debate on Australian literary culture, the conference always invites several Australian writers to read and mix with delegates. It also serves as a meeting place for publishers and authors. Recent conferences have been at such diverse locations as Canberra, Perth, Ballarat, Wagga Wagga, Launceston and Brisbane. ASAL conferences are renowned for their relaxed social atmosphere, with highlights such as a parody night and the Frank Moorhouse Perpetual Trophy for Ballroom dancing. ASAL's newsletter, Notes & Furphies, is posted twice a year to members, and provides information about current research, and bibliographic, historical and critical notes useful for anybody interested in Australian writing. ASAL also makes three annual literary awards: the Gold Medal of the Australian Literature Society for an outstanding literary work; the Walter McRae Russell award for the best work of literary scholarship; and the Mary Gilmore award for the best first book of poetry. The AA Philips Prize is an occasional award that marks as especially noteworthy or longstanding contribution to Australian Literature. As well as these major activities, ASAL runs one-day conferences and seminars, and has developed a publishing program contributing to such books as The Oxford Literary Guide to Australia, The Penguin New Literary History of Australia, and the study of individual authors. Membership of ASAL costs $30 for individuals ($75 for 3 year membership) $40 for institutions ($100 for 3 year membership) $15 concession (student/unwaged). Overseas membership add $5 to cover additional postage of Notes & Furphies. (Australian dollars). Application forms are available from: Ron Blaber The Treasurer, ASAL Communications and Cultural Studies Curtain University Bentley WA 6102. ************************ Australian Writing OnLine is an publicity and distribution service for Australian writers and publishers. For further information please email us at M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au, write to AWOL PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia, phone (02) 747 5667, fax (02) 747 2802 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 23:05:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Aug 23, 95 07:54:27 am I was certainly hoping that Herb & others knew that when I referred to those who equate music with lyric poetry, I was distancing myself from them . . . . All my life my mother and sister and wife and dogs and friends have been listening to my records and claiming that what was coming out was not music. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Wallace who? Steve Carll--thanks for the stevens reference to surrealism (to make a clam play acordion is to invent and not discover), yet i wonder if stevens' problem with surrealism wasn't also its CONVULSIVE BEAUTY-- its chance meeting, and in this sense Dickinson can be said to be more like Surrealism than stevens (though stevens has "the sound of two words that clash" sic?)---For instance, Stevens: It is not every day the world arranges itself into a poem. vs. Dickinson: A word made flesh is seldom and tremblingly partook--- and to what extent does TONE matter more than meaning? the tone of tone? cs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:05:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) Maria, to your question re "doggerel stalinists" is so contemptuous >that i feel my own work indicted. personally, i love doggerel, Me too, as I think my work in several places makes quite clear, particularly if one includes childhood rhymes, tho I would be as apt to cite Duncan as Stein for that influence (not to mention Seuss and P.D. Eastman and Carroll) how do you know that those writers of "inferior verse" (as the >dictionary defines d.) don't experience themselves to be struggling, searching, saying something that has never been said, engaged in a deeper questioning...--md > I don't. The great value of Cary's book--for my money the single best critical volume on 20th C. poetry that exists--is that he begins deliberately with the "most despised" of all genres and from that point builds a description of poetry as community that extends outward in all directions to include pretty much everything that was written. Thus he can discuss how Pound's work found itself in socialist newspapers of the 1930s (at a point when EP himself had already begun his fascination with Il Duce). Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:26:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music Alan writes: > >How exactly do these people connect with language poetry, beyond the fact that perhaps you like their work? > I don't want to make any large claims (and "liking their work" seems fine to me), but I do think that virtually all pose either formal (gamelan, Reich, Partch, ROVA) and/or social (Guthrie, ROVA again, Partch again, Brecht) models for relating their work to the world that have had powerful impacts on me. One might make any kind of systematic correlation I suppose, or build a model on some such idea as "mode of liner note," alternating between such options as "early Dylan faux poetry" or "dense Braxton scientistic jargon"-- but that's the attraction that models always hold. The world itself is more complex. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:36:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: your mail it was clear from his post that he was referring to questions >of personal taste, not to Howe's "goodness" or "badness" as a poet. Amen! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:52:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: your mail Alfred Corn has quite a few books, going back to 1976 (he was born in '43, which places him mid-G1 in Steve Evans' old model), teaches at Columbia, sometimes writes on homosexuality for The Nation, has won the Blumenthal and Levinson prizes from Poetry Magazine and a prize from the American Academy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: nadir of the W In-Reply-To: from "Aldon L. Nielsen" at Aug 23, 95 04:17:15 pm > I'm more than a little puzzled by the reluctance to define the word > "spirituality" combined with an insistent usage of that word. > > Perhaps that is the defining instance of the spiritual??? As used in the recent context here, I think of it more in the terms William Blake proposed when he argued someone can be simultaneously your corporeal friend and your spiritual enemy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: now words/cognitive dissonance In-Reply-To: <950823185258_81691846@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Aug 23, 95 06:52:59 pm > what is > language if it ain't a fact? > > language is words > > and language is talking > > and something else > > But don't confuse me with the facts > > Jordan But my habitation is precisely a confusion of facts irritably reaching after a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the penetralium of mystery. I think. Or was that Coleridge? Or Olson? Anyway, we definitely had lunch on Thursday. Best, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:22:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: tone of tone to what extent does TONE matter more than meaning? the tone of tone? asks cs well you catch tone (or what you think is the tone) before you catch the meaning? as in, everybody under the age of 30 interviewed on NPR ends declarative statements with a rising inflection? so you think nobody born after 1965 is sure of anything? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 08:49:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? gwyn the girl writes: >... seminal (ovarian?) ... > > Gwyn how 'bout germinal? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: the renga that took the place of itself lindz the girl writes: > ... could we come up with a code > word as a heading for rengas so I don't have to look at them. > > Lindz good idea: how 'bout RENGA?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music george b writes: > I was certainly hoping that Herb & others knew that when I referred > to those who equate music with lyric poetry, I was distancing myself > from them . . . . > All my life my mother and sister and wife and dogs and friends have > been listening to my records and claiming that what was coming out > was not music. really? all your female relatives? none of your male relatives? can you explain this phenomenon?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Howe Now, Brown Formalist (and Bob Perelman too) ron s writes: > Maria, > > to your question re > "doggerel stalinists" is so contemptuous > >that i feel my own work indicted. personally, i love doggerel, > > Me too, as I think my work in several places makes quite clear, > particularly if one includes childhood rhymes, tho I would be as apt to > cite Duncan as Stein for that influence (not to mention Seuss and P.D. > Eastman and Carroll) > > how do you know that those writers of "inferior verse" (as the > >dictionary defines d.) don't experience themselves to be struggling, > searching, saying something that has never been said, engaged in a > deeper questioning...--md > > > I don't. The great value of Cary's book--for my money the single best > critical volume on 20th C. poetry that exists--is that he begins > deliberately with the "most despised" of all genres and from that point > builds a description of poetry as community that extends outward in all > directions to include pretty much everything that was written. Thus he > can discuss how Pound's work found itself in socialist newspapers of > the 1930s (at a point when EP himself had already begun his fascination > with Il Duce). > > Ron thanks for the clarification. i too like cary's project, tho i think the book claims too much for itself as paradigm-breaking (a typical academic pitfall), and, in fact, is primarily a rich bibliography. --md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:18:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: commercial e-mail accounts I have a general and pragmatic question. as of sept 1, i'll be on the cape, as i sd, on sabbatical, and am looking for the "best" (ie cheapest for most time) commercial e-mail account i can find, since it's impractical (ie unnecessarily expensive) to stay on my umn account for the yr. It seems that people here write on a variety of commercial accounts; can you give me the benefit of your research and experience and advise me which you recommend? or, alternately, (esp chris funk) does anyone know of any cape-based systems (WHOI, MBL) i could join? thanks in advance, md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:34:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:43:21 -0400 from Gwyn, Had Quark Xpress existed (or had I known of it were it to have existed) when we were working on "A Bibliography..." I probably would have tried to use it (and may have had good results). As it was, I used a system called Script, which was available via a mainframe computer. To raise and lower letters, I had to precede them with commands that looked something like &S'. (to raise) and &s'. (to lower). These commands were intended for the creation of foot notes in scholarly papers. So, on screen the descending "steps" on the page would have looked something like: .il 3 &S's.t&s'e .il 4 &S'p.s To get overlapping text, I pasted up two separate sheets that were then made into a composite by the printer (yes, reviewing the blue lines was a crucial process -- Thomson-Shore did a wonderful job). Having completed this job, I _did_ feel liberated by having lived within (or, more to the point, nearly within) Susan's text world. Since that time, I have done some spatial playing, most commonly by combining text and copier "effects." While Susan's book is clearly not the first one to explore visual elements in remarkable ways, hers was vital for me because of my extended contact with it. When going over the page galleys, Susan was passionate about how the book would look because the questions of spacing were relevant to what information the reader would gain (or lose) depending on presentation. As many know, she has thought long and hard about what Emily Dickinson's work could/should look like in print. She also spoke of having seen first editions of Wallace Stevens' books -- and how he used space in them was reevelatory to her. I'm just back from a quick trip to London, and while there, her comments about Stevens resonated. I saw (but could not afford) first edition William Carlos Williams' books -- the poems looked and sounded even more remarkable, simply because of the presentation. I hope that we (a generation growing up with poets like Susan Howe as north stars for the potential within experimentation) can feel liberated. Cheers, Gale ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:01:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: How Hear Howe? In-Reply-To: Gale, One of the other very interesting/revelatory parts of having Howe in workshop (one of the 19,778 interesting parts!) was learning that she had started her creative career as a visual artist. Rereading _Eikon Basilike_ or _Defenestration of Prague_ with that knowledge, it was enlightening to see how that visual style informed the presentation of her work. I think when you read Howe, your eyes are like a laser, simultaneously scanning and imprinting. Or maybe I've just been sitting behind a Macintosh too long. Quark XPress makes it easy to flip, rotate, angle, skew, superimpose, and otherwise deform/inform text--a boon to the experimenter. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:45:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: THEN USE IT! In-Reply-To: <303c86bc48f1002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, maria damon wrote: > lindz the girl writes: > > ... could we come up with a code > > word as a heading for rengas so I don't have to look at them. > > > > Lindz > > good idea: how 'bout RENGA?--md > WOW, never would have thought of that myself, probably because apparently if you're born after 1965 you don't know nuttin'. So renga-ers no more flashy titles that spark my interest (eg mormon in the armoire ) unless you include the word RENGA. Phew it will be such a relief, I was really stressing over finding just the right word, Thanks Maria. The GIRL, LIndz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 07:44:25 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Criteria (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 07:39:29 -1000 (HST) From: Susan Schultz To: poetics@buffalo.cc.edu Subject: Criteria (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:09:21 -1000 From: Indepen To: Susan Schultz Subject: Criteria To the POETICS List: I know that individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of all subscribers or represent a fair sampling of the thinking of LANGUAGE poets in general. So I'm going to continue on with an open mind and assume that answers to the questions I asked could be better put than some of those posted these past few days. Keith Tuma made sense; he thought about what he was writing before just lashing out. There are no doubt others who can do this, which I'll continue believing until evidence proves otherwise. To begin with, one small point: I didn't say posts were designed to change people's minds but instead their thinking. Why be a LANGUAGE, or any sort of poet if you're not sensitive to language? And if you have no interest in changing someone's thinking, why not just send the post to yourself and enjoy the sound of your own voice? On the possibility or impossibility of evaluating poetry: The idea that all poems are of equal interest, that no poem is either good or bad, can be believed by some people, obviously, but not by most readers. Check your own experience: when you sit down with a new magazine of poetry, do you really begin at the beginning and in perfect calm read each poem with equal interest, enjoying, learning and feeling in equal measure on every page, regardless of what happens there? If you do, you will be an Editor's Delight, the ideal subscriber, who will never dislike any of the offerings. Is this actually how you read? Or do you not abandon some poems in entire boredom, go on to others, reread some with pleasure and fascination, dismiss others with a chuckle, etc.? Be honest. By the same token, if evaluation is as contingent as some of the posts say it is, how is LP able to dismiss "mainstream" poetry as dull or retrograde or clunky or whatever? Isn't that an evaluation? If it is, on what basis is the dismissal made? What are your standards? When David Kellogg cites all the usual criteria that have been applied to the evaluation of poetry since Day One, I have to ask him why he doesn't read the "mainstream" poetry that has those qualities in abundance. Obviously there are other restrictions he is bringing to his evaluation that he doesn't mention--like (I'm just guessing) "communication forms drawn from ordinary conversational practice or logical discourse are excluded," or something like that. Whatever they are, these *extra* criteria, the ones that distinguish LP from "mainstream," ought to be describable, and that's what I'd like to hear, provided the describer can communicate clearly. My own experience: I have read in LP magazines and didn't get anything out them. I also read some essays in a collection about the movement. They didn't sound convincing. It's only because of Ron Silliman's postings on CAP-L that I looked into the question again. In an interesting post made some six months ago, he asserted that the LP movment was in the process of splintering into multiple sub-groups who no longer shared the same aesthetic bases, and that, in effect, these groups could no longer "read" each other. I would be curious to hear whether other Langpoets agree that this is true; and, if so, what are the differences that make it impossible to care about the writings of other splinter groups? I hope that no one is going to say it is altogether impossible to discuss the ideas on which poetry or poetries are based. If so, why subscribe to a discussion group, and why claim a place in the universe of discourse? On the question of "music," shouldn't we admit that the sound techniques of actual music and verbal texts are too far removed from each other to make this metaphor at all useful? And if pure sound is all that matters in poetry, why hasn't the movement hailed Dame Edith Sitwell as one of its heroes? A final question: are Laura Riding, Dylan Thomas, John Ashbery, Michael Palmer, Ann Lauterbach, and Jorie Graham LANGUAGE poets. On what basis do you determine whether someone is writing LP? Alfred C. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:07:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) I just wanted to reply to one point in Alfred Corn's latest points (and I do think Keith Tuma is right that Corn is a friendly ghost-- also there is intelligence and concern in his willingness to dialogue) In particular the assumption that this POETICS list is a LANGUAGE POETRY list. I'm bringing this up because I've received other notes (mostly backchannel) from people claiming fear of being stifled or making enemies etc by going against the LANG PO orthodoxy (or orthodoxies) ---To beg the question of whether there IS a LANG-PO orthodoxy for now , I first want to say that when i was told about this list, though I was told Charles (Bernstein) was running it, etc, that it was not billed to me as a LANG.PO list and there have been many OLSONION--BLACK MOUNTAIN threads as well, and even some NEW YORK SCHOOL ones (though these "factions" overlap and are not highly defined), there was even discussion on LEONARD COHEN. If there is a sense that the debates on this list are debates WITHIN the langyage community (to people like Corn) then either Bernstein and Andrews are better markerters than I give them credit for or this assumption needs to be exploded (probably both---the "eithor/or" construction of the last senstence is not the best way to say it--but it's too late now....) Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:01:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Aug 1995 07:44:25 -1000 from The difficulty, sir, that I have in specifying criteria for "good poetry" is, at least in part, related to a recognition of the pioneering critical work undertaken so many decades ago by Victor Shklovsky and his Russian Formalist colleagues. ...A work may be (1) intended as prosaic and accepted as poetic, or (2) intended as poetic and accepted as prosaic. This suggests that the artistry attributed to a given work results from the way we perceive it. By "works of art," in the sense, we mean works created by special techniques designed to make the works as obviously artistic as possible. V. Shklovsky, "Art as Technique," _Russian Formalist Criticism, translated by Lemon and Reis, p. 8 Poetic imagery is a means of creating the strongest possible impression. As a method it is, depending upon its purpose, neither more nor less effective than other poetic techniques; it is neither more nor less effective than ordinary or negative parallelism, comparison, repetition, balanced structure, hyperbole, the commonly accepted rhetorical figures, and all those methods which emphasize the emotional effect of an expression (including words or even articulated sounds). ibid., pp. 8-9 And so life is reckoned as nothing. Habitualization devours works, clothes, furniture, one's wife, and the fear of war. "If the whole complex lives of many people go on unconsciously, then such lives are as if they had never been." And art exists that one may recover the sensation of life; it exists to make one feel things, to make the stone _stony._ The purpose of art is to impart the sensation of things as they are perceived and not as they are known. The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms difficult, to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the process of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged. _Art is a way of experiencing the artfulness of an object; the object itself is not important._ [italics in the original] ibid., p. 12 In studying poetic speech in its phonetic and lexical structure as well as its characteristic distribution of words and in the characteristic thought structures compounded from the words, we find everywhere the artistic trademark -- that is, we find material obviously created to remove the automatisism of perception; the author's purpose is to create the vision which results from that deautomatized perception. A work is created "artistically" so that its perception is impeded and the greatest possible effect is produced through the slowness of its perception. As a result of this lingering, the object is perceived not in its extension in space, but, so to speak, in its continuity. Thus "poetic language" gives satisfaction. According to Aristotle, poetic language must appear strange and wonderful; and, in fact, it is often actually foreign: the Sumerian used by the Assyrians, the Latin of Europe during the Middle Ages, the Arabisms of the Persians, the Old Bulgarian of Russian literature, or the elevated, almost literary language of folk songs. ibid., pp. 21-22. In light of these developments we can define poetry as -attenuated, tortuous_ speech. Poetic speech is _formed speech._ Prose is ordinary speech -- economical, easy, proper, the goddess of prose [dea prosae] is a goddess of the accurate, facile type, or the "direct" expression of a child. I shall discuss roughened form and retardation as the general _law_ of art at greater length in an article on plot construction. ibid., p. 23 There is "order" in art, yet not a single column of a Greek temple stands exactly in its proper order; poetic rhythm is similarly disordered rhythm. Attempts to systematize the irregularities have been made, and such attempts are part of the current problem in the theory of rhythm. It is obvious that the systematization will not work, for in reality the problem is not one of complicating the rhythm but of disordering the rhythm -- a disordering which cannot be predicted. Should the disordering rhythm become a convention, it would be ineffective as a device for the roughening of language. ibid., p. 24 If we take Shklovsky to heart (which I have done, with much thanks to playwright Paula Vogel for introducing me to his work), we recognize that criteria for "good poetry" is always shifting. A work may be written in "tradional form" in such a way that it defamiliarizes the reader's response to that form, or disrupts the reader's expectations in relation to the content. A work may also use any device (or technique if you prefer) to make the poem poetic -- to remind us of the stone... Vernacular speech, word fragments, discursive structure, random word combinations, spatial arrangement, repetition, etc., can all be used to make the reader take notice of the work at hand. So too collage, cut-up, etc., etc. Queneau's 10 to the 14th power of sonnets is most assuredly defamiliarizing in the most joyous possible ways. We live in a time when we can take joy in the possibility that vertical criteria can be swept aside -- that each work may astonish us on its own basis. With perhaps too much zeal, Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Criteria (LONG) In-Reply-To: Dear Alfred Corn, Since you single out Keith Tuma as the one person who thought about what he was writing before lashing out, I'll assume that I'm one of the dunderheaded lashers who disappoint (DLWD). Nevertheless, I persist. For everybody's sake, I'll only respond to the part of this post that addressed me, or that I think were more or less addressed to questions I've fielded before. > On the possibility or impossibility of evaluating poetry: The > idea that all poems are of equal interest, that no poem is either good or > bad, can be believed by some people, obviously, but not by most readers. Yes. And *nobody* on this list said otherwise, not even maria; when she said that she agreed with Duncan about there being no good or bad poems that was NOT a refusal of evaluation, nor was it an "anything-goes" kind of policy. Certainly nobody has said that all poems are of equal interest. "Interest" is precisely what is at issue, in the sense that our evaluations of poems are "interested" (read: contingent) and thus *different*. I am interested in some poetry because I like it; I'm interested in other poetry because I don't. I find boredom interesting, but boredom is usually thought of as "bad." > By the same token, if evaluation is as contingent as some of the > posts say it is, how is LP able to dismiss "mainstream" poetry as dull or > retrograde or clunky or whatever? Isn't that an evaluation? If it is, on > what basis is the dismissal made? What are your standards? When David > Kellogg cites all the usual criteria that have been applied to the > evaluation of poetry since Day One, I have to ask him why he doesn't read > the "mainstream" poetry that has those qualities in abundance. Obviously > there are other restrictions he is bringing to his evaluation that he > doesn't mention--like (I'm just guessing) "communication forms drawn from > ordinary conversational practice or logical discourse are excluded," or > something like that. Whatever they are, these *extra* criteria, the ones > that distinguish LP from "mainstream," ought to be describable, and that's > what I'd like to hear, provided the describer can communicate clearly. I guess I have to respond here, since my name's mentioned, but let me state that I have NEVER done any of the following: a) dismissed mainstream poetry (tho I dismissed Tim Steele's prose-- would you care to defend it, or describe him as "mainstream"?); b) said I don't read mainstream poetry (I do, in fact, even the occasional Alfred Corn, even Philip Larkin, tho I once called the latter "asinine"); c) excluded any of the things he mentioned from my likings (ordinary conversational practice etc.) In fact, poetry popularly described as LP (I won't quibble about terms here, about who is or isn't LP, I have no interest in that game, my own recent poetry learns from it but probably wouldn't be described as such) uses all of those things: ordinary conversational practice, logical discourse, etc. Sometimes its critical discourse has seemed to dismiss such elements, but that's the difference between the blanket of theory and the field of practice. As for the dismissal of mainstream poetry by some language poets, I don't think it's more surprising than other critiques by excluded groups in other contexts, and a lot of times it's right. Just to take your own post for an example, one thing that pisses people off is the concept of a "mainstream" in the first place -- something that, for most people who believe in the term, is best eaten reified. When, just to take an almost arbitrary example, J.D. McClatchy begins his Vintage book of contemporary American poetry by arguing that no camps need form because everybody already knows who the big ones are and then begins the book *out* of chronological order with LOWELL and BISHOP, pushing Olson for example about ten poets down the line and representing him with a single poem -- well, that's disgusting. There are I'm sure lots of specific examples of exclusion from the movement's early days that others on this list could tell you about. However, it seems to me that the anger from LPs about mainstream poetry has toned down in recent years, and why? Partly because exclusionary tactics like McClatchy's are more recognizable for the strongarming they are, and partly because some wrongs are being righted (the new Norton postmodern etc.). The breakup that Ron mentioned I think is partly due to the fact individual language poets are getting recognized, and that group identification is less attractive to leaders who are recognizable individually. (I'm not necessarily speaking of you, Ron; I'm thinking sociologically now.) Certainly Ron has advocated precisely the kind of more pluralistic reading that you seem to think language poetry excludes (see his "Canons and Institutions"). From my point of view it's you, and not me, who describe any liking of language poetry in exclusionary terms, like the way you assume that I don't read what you call "mainstream" poetry -- a pretty galling and arrogant assumption, not to mention 100% wrong. I don't need to exclude anybody to desribe my tastes. For example, my favorite poets among the language group are Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, and Leslie Scalapino (tho she's maybe not defined as "in" the group by everybody). These poets make use of prose, which I find interesting, and they've opened for me ways of thinking about the poetic process (or better, procedure?) that are pretty fresh for me. With Ron there's a sense of immediacy in the project at hand, something to be done, and a willingness *not to exclude* the seemingly anomalous or "ugly" material. So some stuff gets left seemingly hanging, but not "wasted," -- or "waste" is reconceived in the process of the poem. My response to Hejinian is I guess pretty typical -- My Life was a pivotal book for me, the work that made me think, hey, there's something going on here -- and its virtues are more apparent each time I read it. Since everything I say about her has been said better somewhere else, I'll refrain. With Scalapino for me it's again a question of process, repetition, and -- in her case especially -- perspective. How a subject gets talked around, through, wrung out. Her work is exhausting, and saying "it's not for everybody" does not degrade its value *for me* and for many others. My reasons for reading each of these poets is often different from my reasons for liking them, and may include political or research interests: these can be transpersonal, and I may find the work satisfying in these respects and worth promoting to others. I may even critique other poets as not meeting such needs (politically indifferent, not worth writing a paper on, not likely to interest students). This is all due to my situatedness as an academic, my *contingent* (as an adjunct, highly ;-) contingent) position in the university and, beyond that, the world. I may also read other poets for other reasons. Who's to say? Me. See? None of my reasons for liking any of these poets is based on an exclusion of conversation, logical discourse, etc. I'd appreciate it if you didn't assume wrong things about somebody you don't know for no reason other than his presence on a mailing list. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 16:29:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Aug 1995 07:44:25 -1000 from Well, the conversation is getting interesting and, damn, just when I have a thousand things to do--seminars to prepare, deadlines, self-imposed deadlines. So I'm not going to write the world's longest post on why I like to read poems by, uh, Bernadette Mayer, Ron Silliman, Jerome Rothenberg, Lorine Niedecker, Basil Bunting, Charles Bernstein, Michael Palmer, Cole Swensen, Sir Thomas Wyatt, Frank Bidart, Thomas Campion, Baudelaire, Villon, Catullus, Nathaniel Mackey, Nathaniel Tarn, Will Alexander, Robert Creeley, Leslie Scalapino, Elizabeth Bishop, Thom Gunn, Dr. Suess, Turner Cassity, Firdosi, Cid Corman, John Taggart, Clayton Eshleman, Homer, Horace, Dickinson, Susan Howe, John Skelton, Mina Loy, Amiri Baraka, Larry Eigner, Roy Fisher, Allen Fisher, Catherine Walsh, Maurice Scully, Gael Turnbull, Peter Redgrove, David Dabydeen, H. D., Wallace Stevens, Laura Riding, William Bronk, Paul Celan, Vallejo, Dante, Hugh Macdiarmid, Tom Raworth, Sappho, William Northcutt. . .oh I'm already running out of gas. It's a big and glorious world: also crowded. And I don't think of myself as much of a poet, which may make a difference. BUT, in the spirit of friendly dialogue, I would like to ask Alfred Corn--yes I've read two of the books too, _A Various Light_ and the book about NY--a question. Just don't seem fair that you get to ask all the questions. You mention that you have looked at langpo magazines and not been impressed and read a book of essays on langpo and not been convinced. I'm wondering what magazines and what critical book those were? And what put you off or didn't convince? That would clarify some things. One final point: you seem to suggest that the only alternative to the model of discourse-as-persuasion is solipsistic blather. Can't agree. --Keith Tuma (who was going to stop but now blathers on. . . It may be obvious, but who knows? So I'll say that just because a name isn't on that list above doesn't mean I don't read him/her with pleasure and just because it is doesn't mean I read all of his/her work with pleasure. Must be cautious with a ghost around and--hell--we also don't want to wake up all the lurkers. Oh, and one more thing: Michael Palmer doesn't for the most part think of himself as a language poet, though the issue is complicated. See the interview Lee Bartlett did with Palmer in the New Mexicao book _Talking Poetry_. MP can speak for himself there. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:27:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) Dear Alfred C Actually I think the important word in our posts (or my posts, I _love_ my voice) was "try". That is, a congenital dislike for wilfullness opposes our need to oppose what we see as travesties of the language, and what we say seems like an awkward "lashing out". I don't think you'll get very far with the false argument that we're trying to be insensitive to language. We are passionate, meaning cold when necessary, but we're not insensitive. As for the evaluation of "mainstream" poetry, I'm not agin it. Let's have a preamble to the discussion, from the pages of Poets & Writers 25th Anniversary issue (which takes the form of reflections on "25" from ... oh well, 21 writers). David Lehman quite rightly (if in a characteristically extreme way) remarks that "There are still people who think that our general cultural blight can be summed up in the word _workshop_ (as in "we workshopped my sestina today"), just as Hitler thought that the popular dance called the shimmy was the perfect metonymy for all the idiocy of America." From the same issue, and in the preface to Dana Gioia's list of 25 love poems by modern English-language poets which "deal with sexual love--_eros_ not _agape_--expressed in every possible way", come these sentences: The only pleasure some romances provide in retrospect is their bittersweet absurdity. My only regret is that I could not list another 25 favorites. I shall have to delay that pleasure for Poets & Writers' 50th anniversary. I realize that you are not the author of either of these passages, and I won't ask you to explain the comparison of people who distrust "workshops" to Hitler. And now I see Mr Nelson has posted Shklovsky and Mr Tuma has sent a list of names (are catalog poems of interest?) and they are more affirmative and passionate and I'll stop. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) Dear Alfred Corn: a coupla points i never intended any of my responses to your queries to be vituperative or dismissive. i'm not "lashing out;" if i seem to be, that's my "style," as others on the list can attest; it has nothing to do with the topic. i have never written on language poetry nor have a particular stake in its thriving or wilting. i'm on the list because i met charles bernstein at a conference and he offered to sign me up. i sd sure, great. i'd never been on a list before. i didn't know about the cap-l list, tho' as i've said, it's closely associated with some members of my department. so, in my particular case, the people who "reached out" to me are the people whose list i joined. i've felt welcome, though it's been clear during some interactions that i'm coming from a different place. i try to take to heart robert duncan's "no good or bad poetry," perhaps because as a fellow-traveler and sometime participant in all kinds of schools that stress relativity, from the pop-psych insistence on "I statements" ("I like this" rather than "this is good") to cultural studies's underlying ethos of cultural relativity (for inst., i prefer montaigne to most of his contemporaries, etc.) anyway, those who are of the "personal experience is a bore, personal anecdotes are narcissistic and self-indulgent" persuasion (which cuts across ideological orientation, i've found) are probably dozing off by now, but i wanted to clarify one person's history w/ the POETICS list and reflections on your latest forward. come on down! (you can always use the DIGEST option)--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:39:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Criteriaria In-Reply-To: from "Keith Tuma" at Aug 24, 95 04:29:33 pm I'm still a fairly recent and novice reader of langpo and would like to throw my two-bits out, for all they're worth. I find langpo to be closer to its poetics than most other "schools" insofar as it reads to me as theory. In it's "refusal to refer", as George put it (I think), I find myself anchored in this clause and its dynamics as referent itself. Moreover, In the reading I have done, I find it to be more historical (erudite?) than Eliot insofar as what is not being done as before or what is being resisted (i.e. formal, syntactical, political expectations [desires?]) is its momentum. What is absent, in other words, informs what is present by virtue of negation: a system of difference, I suppose. In any case, I can enjoy the clatter of words as I can enjoy O'Hara's lunch hour--I love skimming the surface--but for some reason I am left feeling uncomfortable when the within is a without. Maybe that is good, though. And I suppose the reason I say all this is because Language Poetry, when it was taught/introduced to me, was accessible through its relationships to other "schools" we played with. Maybe that is good, too. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:49:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: <303c87934c38002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 24, 95 09:07:17 am At the time I wrote about my female relatives complaining about my favorite music, I wondered whether someone would jerk a knee about the fact that I mentioned female relatives.I did not mention "all" my female relatives. It happens that I have just one wife and one kid, who is my daughter, and had no father to listen to my record player. In fact my first dog liked Charles Parker and could not abide Coltrane. When I reared two of his sons (male) they didnt mind Coltrane, but ran out of the room into the basement when I played Giussepe Logan or John Chicai or however you spell it. My cats now live outside the house, and my daughter digs alternative garage bands. My wife Angela likes early Coltrane. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:50:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the renga that took the place of itself In-Reply-To: <303c86bc48f1002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Aug 24, 95 09:03:43 am Yeah, but what will we do if some wag titles her message RENGA and then makes an interesting point about Nicole Brossard instead? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music In-Reply-To: <199508242249.PAA13423@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Aug 24, 95 03:49:02 pm Actually George's daughter is my roommate adn she likes Chet Baker. George just plays everythin too loud, including during classes. But this discussion raises an interesting question, for me anyway. I was raised on pop music and find a lot of jazz elusive, even annoying, because I haven't a sense of its tradition, its lineage and evolution. Is it me or is this required to HEAR what's going on. Or, conversely, is this required to HEAR pop songs (does one need to know that liverpool band in order to get the irony of the Manchester scene, for ex.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:04:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: the renga that took the place of itself In-Reply-To: <199508242250.PAA13578@fraser.sfu.ca> from "George Bowering" at Aug 24, 95 03:50:13 pm Then we'll have to mire that interesting point amongst a litany of disfunctional renga lines. GB wrote: > > Yeah, but what will we do if some wag titles her message RENGA and > then makes an interesting point about Nicole Brossard instead? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:24:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Criteria (short) In-Reply-To: <303cfab40c5e002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Sorry for inflicting a rather long post on everybody. But if I could just say two things more, forms of agreement really: 1) Chris is right that this is NOT a langpo list, and that a variety of perspectives get articulated here; 2) what maria said about style goes for me as well. A list is a conversational forum; a lot of what gets said may seem rather blunt. (Tho looking back at my post dismissed with others as lashing out, there's nothing of substance I'd really change). Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:25:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan E. Dunn" A. Corn writes: >I am neither a Puritan nor a father. I did not ask that anyone be >sacrificed, let alone Susan Howe, whose poetry I haven't read. Susan >Dunn objects to an alleged scapegoating, but in doing so scapegoats >CAP-L in general and me in particular" My puritan narrative was not meant to be taken literally. It was meant as an ironic absurdity. There was no intention of slander. I am truly mortified that it was taken as such. Susan Dunn sedunn@s-word.stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:36:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) In-Reply-To: > A final question: are Laura Riding, Dylan Thomas, John Ashbery, > Michael Palmer, Ann Lauterbach, and Jorie Graham LANGUAGE poets. yes, no, yes, yes, yes, no. Three more and you can have the poetry Hollywood Squares. I nominate Corn, Silliman, and Susan Howe. XXXXXOOOOO, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:49:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) I seem to be the only one but I'll say matter of factly that I don't read "mainstream poetry" -- closest I would get is Ashbery, or maybe Joy Harjo, only one or two things of hers I like-- but I REALLY like them. The epithet "mainstream" and the critical evaluation "boring" are pretty much synonymous in my critical vocabulary. I subscribe to APR & do try to find things on occasion that surprise-- actually Eileen Myles had a great piece there -- mainstream? no. I don't have time to read everything, so I don't read what I can be pretty sure shares assumptions I find uninteresting, assumptions, even at times supportive of social values I find threatening. I don't think any one way of writing is correct, & I don't think the mainstream can be easily characterized-- but you can often look at the publisher of a book & know whether what's inside is gonna be drek or not. I work in a bookstore & confirm this to myself daily. It is sociological I think. I come almost entirely out of New American Poetry through that to l.p.-- & have recently been hired to teach just that-- from me thy're gonna get O'Hara, Mayer, Armantrout, Shapiro, Bernstein, etc. The "splintering" Ron refered to is a result of two things I believe-- the increase in audience for New American/l.p. & economic circumstances. Many excellent writers my age are scrounging for $200 to publish a chapbook-- their audience becomes local. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:58:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: new & forthcoming "Bookstore guy" here to mention a few things forthcoming & new: Carla Harryman's long-awaited City Lights book _There Never Was A Rose Without A Thorn_ is out! _Asia & Haiti_ by Will Alexander is just out from Sun & Moon. U. Iowa published a book worth reading: _Voices Cast Out To Talk Us In_ by Ed Roberson. Forthcoming Sept. _Walter Benjamin: A Biography_ by Momme Broderson. Apparently this is THE biography, translated by Malcolm Green. Verso hardcover 30 dollars. What else. . . new Ashbery from FSG in the fall. Selected Watten from Sun & Moon, "Forthcoming" as they say. Alferi trans Swenson just out Sun & Moon. Still haven't seen the Celan from Sun & Moon. Candidate for title of the fall _The Missionary Position: The Ideology of Mother Teresa_ by Hitchens, also Verso. Sun & Moon reprints _The Crystal Text_. BIG Olson book by Ralph Maud $45 hardcover from Southern Illonois, fall sometime. Feb. brings Mina Loy bio & reprint of Baedeker by FSG, suspect Marissa has opinions on these. Big drama anthology from Sun & Moon. Collected Padgett from Godine. Retallack's conversations with Cage from Wesleyan in Oct. Rothenberg/Joris anthology. Kerouac _Book of Blues_. Gym class, oceans to warn by, & truth. . . (didn't feel like scrolling to the end of the renga) --Rod PS-- NYC recently lost 3 independent stores to the chains. Is that "great selection" at Barnes & Noble still gonna be there after they're all gone? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:22:13 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:22:24 -1000 From: Indepen To: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) To Keith Tuma: The magazine's name was, no, there were two of them. But I can't remember their names. It's been ten years. The anthology of critical prose was titled L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. Was Charles Bernstein the editor? Can't remember. Are there better collections of essays on the movement than this one? And what are regarded as the best magazines? From your list of favorite poets, Keith, it seems to me that you don't restrict your tastes to the new movement. WHich means it isn't an orthodoxy for you, but simply one of the places you find interesting writing--is that a fair summary of what you are saying? Is this typical of the subscribers to POETICS, or, on the other hand, do most of the subscribers hew closer to the line on what is legit and what not? Alfred Corn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:06:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: new & forthcoming In-Reply-To: <950824225711_62774927@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Rod Smith" at Aug 24, 95 10:58:03 pm Maybe I'll add, since we're pluggin good stuff, George Stanley's new book is due in September. I think it's _Gentle Northern Summer_ or thereabouts. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: who is this guy? In-Reply-To: Corn wrote: "Is this typical of the subscribers to POETICS, or, on the other hand, do most of the subscribers hew closer to the line on what is legit and what not?" Why are we being attacked? I find this whole discussion very confusing as I too am new to the concept of language poets and " mainstream" poets. I don't really consider anytype of poetry mainstream as it still focuses on a certain section of the masses, but i suppose within the community there has to be a norm. But howw is our discussion typical of anything? Everyone here is so vocal in expressing themsleves, we never seem to agree on anything and I like it. The dicussion is always good when things get hot. But who is this guy who's trying to define us, and (oh god) make generalizations about us. He's worse than a lurker as he isn't even part of the list. Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 05:48:44 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: Language Poetry and Music Would you count the libretto to _Einstein on the Beach_ as LangPo? For example, Christopher Knowles's text, "These are the days", with its repetitions, strange juxtapositions and fragmentations of words? Or, moving towards "popular" music, how about the lyrics to Underworld's _dubnobasswithmyheadman_ album? They certainly rely upon tone and fragmentary images more than any structured exposition - "30000ft above the earth, Elvis, fresh meat and a little whipped cream" - although they tend towards the Avant- Pop a la Mark Leyner. The liner notes form an interesting visual/textual piece, and as the design group _Tomato_ they published a book called _mm, skyscraper, I love you_ using the same techniques. Or, come to think of it, does scat singing count as sound poetry? just a few ramblings, Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 17:55:40 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Criteria (fwd) I've been noticing ever since I've been on the list, the absence of a lot of writers associated with L=, and friends less clearly so included too whose writings I've read and enjoyed. No Gottlieb, or Seaton, or Tom Beckett-- no Johanna Drucker -- no Grenier or Eigner, Susan Howe, Jackson Mac Low, Hannah Weiner. I don't see why anyone would call this a L= . Is there some particular U.DS. academic politics here that I'm not "getting"? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 18:15:53 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Mitchellmania, Harpermania Sure, will it tow my Ford Laser while I ride with you? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 00:26:02 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: poetry/prose thinking The temporal axis of engagement on this listserv virtually garantees that its corpus - the prose as much as the poetry - is collaboratively written, whether acknowledged, and to what degree, or not. I for one have purposely listened-up for that in posting to the poem. In fact I'd say that a lot of the poem has to do with how to reflexively acknowledge the collaborative nature of the listerv itself (and its concerns, and the reading horizons of its various non/participants, etc). So I am surprised at the unthinking tilt against the listserv's recent development, to wit: the ongoing, collaboratively written poem. Up til now I've tried to engage with these prosaic prods by means of adding lines to versions of the poem. But how can this persistent antagonism toward the poetry be explained? What does it say about 'who' we are when we read, how we read/think, and what we are reading for (and all this in specific relation to the communal, processual address permitted by the listserv?)? Is it really - it seems endemic to computer technology, complaints of how slow it is - the repeated lines that are irksome as some have politely said, or questions of lack of time, or is it more like a judgement on the _quality_ of the 'slowed perception' that the lines require? These questions are for the poetry contributors as well. What does this decision mean: of when and what to contribute to the poem, and what and when to contribute to the prose instead? The semantic content of the prose (e.g. reaching for facts about...) is in some ways accountable to/by the institutional/pedagogical context that implicitly lurks 'beneath' the listerv (viz. university addresses appended to contributor names). Some of these questions, the way I've quickly sketched em, may seem to demand of contributors a 'self-inquiring' kind of response, but I do mean them to be read in more of an objective sense than that. For subjectively speaking, I could evilly say more than the following about how I find the prose posts at their worst to be irredeemably complacent, inertial, phatic, self-regarding, vapidly 'spontaneous', substitute television - just as some of you no doubt could and have said and implied as much about your reading experience of the poetry. So in other words: this kind of judgement on quality ain't an interesting pursuit on these terms - and there seems to be a general consensus on this. In any event, to go on as I have just done wouldn't explain why this antagonism exists in the first place, nor how to theorize it in a reflexive way as a means toward interpreting the nature of this listserv practice, and the potentials for both its poetry and its prose. As we know blah blah blah, the history of prose, in all its forms - and this evidently is no exception - is one of positioning itself as the natural communicative ideology, in comparison to poetry. This seems the case recently regardless of medium - so that, for instance, the poetry on the listserv is criticized for being "hard-copy," whereas there is no reflexive critique at all of the listserv prose as being equally - if not more - so. That's just one recent example of the agonism between the genres. Now there is a preference for debate across the boundary of the listerv itself (with a non-member) _in prose_, rather than beginning one between the thinking in prose and in poetry on the listserv itself. Expansionism, always the way. How can people interested in poetry not be interested in thinking in poetry especially in this listserv format? The common denominator prevails: its the most conservative articulation that gets the attention: so there's a collective rallying of 'explaining to do' when the listserv is challenged by someone 'from outside'. While the listserv's decentred centre, the poem itself, performs its own variety of common excesses. This too long, but hey, only the letters in these words have repeated (some might find comfort in saying). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 02:34:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Language Poetry In-Reply-To: <00995636.E727D360.13@met.co.nz> I don't understand these classifications, emphases on definitions, taxonomies, generations. Is this the point of poetry, to be slotted? Is it only for other poets? If language poetry is a framework for a movement, does one _belong_ or not? Taxonomy's the death of it. Again, if Kristeva found a revolution in poetic language, classification will kill it. Who are we writing for? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:06:36 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: 27 - a reading I hope this doesn't sound like advertising ... but I've just completed a hypertext poem, one that invites the reader to construct her or his own reading, and I'd like to mention the URL of the site in the hope that people here could email or post their readings, so that I can include these readings with the poem on my website. The poem is called "27 - a reading", and is a tentative investigation of the first 27 years of my life (as of tomorrow) in the form of fragments from journals, letters, stories and notes. Both the highly structured nature of the sequence (an attempt to deflect my tendency to jump to conclusions) and the idea of "an autobiography in which I refuse to tell the story of my life" were suggested by Alan Loney's book _The Erasure Tapes_. The URL is "http://metcon.met.co.nz/nwfc/beard/www/notes27.html". The poem's multi-dimensional structure has eluded my attempts to put it onto paper without "flattening" it, so I've had to put it into hypertext. I'd also love to see some "active readings" from list members with WWW access. Here are a few readings that I've constructed: a common thread, my old letters began to fall no psionic ability, oysters 7 days, a murmuring, whisper take your poems, tastefully covered up learn to see landscape, rivers, mountains, a new light, rains of fire - you are dangerous flowers, unfrozen lakes I stopped dancing, began to fall, brilliant & lucid, it wasn't easy. I blindly continued by careful nurturing the final choice. Like unpredictable electricity, the stoical scheme, the final choice to the ceiling. Don't play games, the stoical scheme of reasoning power, tomorrow like today. I look forward to your readings. Tom Beard. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:05:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Corn pone In-Reply-To: from "Susan Schultz" at Aug 24, 95 05:22:13 pm > From your list of favorite poets, Keith, it seems to me that you > don't restrict your tastes to the new movement. WHich means it isn't an > orthodoxy for you, but simply one of the places you find interesting > writing--is that a fair summary of what you are saying? Is this typical > of the subscribers to POETICS, or, on the other hand, do most of the > subscribers hew closer to the line on what is legit and what not? > > Alfred Corn I think what's most amusing about this whole exchange for me is the way Professor Corn so clumsily masks his own rare sectarianism behind accusations of sectarianism. Do you think we should let him see the loyalty oath we have to sign before Papa Charlie let's us on the list? Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:12:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Renga free In-Reply-To: <9508250626.AA66770@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca> from "Louis Cabri" at Aug 25, 95 00:26:02 am Just to note the first renga-free morning since the virus hit. Hallellujia. Maybe we'll survive after all. Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:33:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: music and poetry Oh blah. If the sound techniques of music and poetry are too far removed from each other for this issue to make sense, then perhaps there is a problem with both. Too recapitulate briefly: Greek poetry was never anything but involved with music; it did not exist apart from music. This is true of epics, dramas, lyrics, and odes. Latin Poetry did not use music but used the Greek musical meters. Early Christia